Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
David Livingston wrote:Not so sure if your point about mixing populations is clear as there have always been folks who travelled about
A skeleton dug up recently at Stone henge was discovered to have come from what is now Switerland about 3000bc I doubt he got the train :-) .
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
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Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
David Livingston wrote:I think it is a mistake to consider only food and mutations have an impact on evolution . Firstly other factors might affect human evolution.
Hybrid vigour from closely connected human species and the actual evolution of society it's self may have an effect other factors may have an effect .
David
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
According to my reading on SCD...
...
I know that (with a few exceptions, mostly found in politics) humans are different than vegetables, insects, and sheep. But are we really so different that it takes 10,000 times as many generations to adapt to a new diet than vegetables, insects, and sheep? What is it about our genetics that makes us so different than the natural world around us?
Pecan Media: food forestry and forest garden ebooks
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r ranson wrote:
Why am I thinking about this? We have two people in the home with gut illnesses. We're having trouble absorbing the required nutrients through our food alone and are seeking a diet that will heal our gut. Challange is, the reasoning behind that diet needs to make sense to me. Saying that human digestion hasn't changed in 10,000 years contradicts what I know of evolution from other sources. So I'm curious if there is some mechanism there that makes humans exempt from natural forces, if my previous understanding of how this all works is wrong, or if something else is going on.
Like I said, very disjointed thoughts. But my instinct tells me they are related somehow.
“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”― Albert Einstein
r ranson wrote:
What if, our bodies actually thrived on the diet of our individual ancestors 200 years ago? That would give me a North Western European diet heavy in wheat, milk, pulses, cabbage, and beer. But according to the SCD, most of these are 'illegal' foods for good health.
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
r ranson wrote:
How far back do we have to go to find a diet that our bodies are adapted to?
"Study books and observe nature; if they do not agree, throw away the books." ~ William A. Albrecht
James Freyr wrote:
r ranson wrote:
How far back do we have to go to find a diet that our bodies are adapted to?
I think about 100 years. Chemicals to feed plants, new lab techniques of creating "food products" from whole foods (like corn syrup from corn for example), creating food additives from petroleum, these are all recent 20th century problems. At the end of the 19th century, rich aristocrats and the poor alike all ate the same natural foods grown and raised by farming methods honed over millennia.
"People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do."
S Bengi wrote:
r ranson wrote:
What if, our bodies actually thrived on the diet of our individual ancestors 200 years ago? That would give me a North Western European diet heavy in wheat, milk, pulses, cabbage, and beer. But according to the SCD, most of these are 'illegal' foods for good health.
Where am I suppose to find this traditional
beer (that was pretty much wild fermentation with lots of lactic acid bacteria)
milk/meat (with a complete profile of good fats from free range, non-gmo grains, live fermented cheese vs chemically made cheese)
pulse (where am I suppose to find this beyond organic soy/beans, all I see now is filled with chemicals/pesticides/gmo)
cabbage (pretty much the same as the above, except we have cut back on the greens we eat by so much, and what we do eat is not fermented/soaked
wheat (same as the beans above, also were can I find this fermented wheat/bread, that isn't modified food-starch(pasta/bread/pastry/bagel), we used to cook overnight/pre-soak and break down the anti-nutrient)
John Weiland wrote:Humans are just as natural as any other product of the universe and subject to the same laws of nature as all other entities. Adaptation can be genetic (over generations) or physiological (changes in gene expression or metabolism in *this* generation).
S Bengi wrote:
r ranson wrote:
What if, our bodies actually thrived on the diet of our individual ancestors 200 years ago? That would give me a North Western European diet heavy in wheat, milk, pulses, cabbage, and beer. But according to the SCD, most of these are 'illegal' foods for good health.
Where am I suppose to find this traditional
beer (that was pretty much wild fermentation with lots of lactic acid bacteria)
milk/meat (with a complete profile of good fats from free range, non-gmo grains, live fermented cheese vs chemically made cheese)
pulse (where am I suppose to find this beyond organic soy/beans, all I see now is filled with chemicals/pesticides/gmo)
cabbage (pretty much the same as the above, except we have cut back on the greens we eat by so much, and what we do eat is not fermented/soaked
wheat (same as the beans above, also were can I find this fermented wheat/bread, that isn't modified food-starch(pasta/bread/pastry/bagel), we used to cook overnight/pre-soak and break down the anti-nutrient)
"Study books and observe nature; if they do not agree, throw away the books." ~ William A. Albrecht
James Freyr wrote:Fish?
Todd Parr wrote:
Everything I have read suggests that 10,000 years is more likely, although I agree 100 years ago our diet was better. This article is good overview of human evolution.
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1c.shtml
Sorry I'm on my phone and can't put the link in correctly. The article talks about just how much our health decreased between the end of the Paleolithic era and the beginning of the Neolithic. We lost 4 inches in height among the changes. In general, evolutionary change takes millions of years, not hundreds.
"Study books and observe nature; if they do not agree, throw away the books." ~ William A. Albrecht
Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
The adaptation can also be cultural. I see social adaptation affecting the fitness of pheasants, insects, coyotes, etc... In other-words, adaptation is also done through learning.
“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”― Albert Einstein
Trying to achieve self-reliance on a tiny suburban plot: http://gardenofgaladriel.blogspot.com
Galadriel Freden wrote:Regarding wheat and other grains, I think until the advent of mechanization, humans were eating very little of these because they require so much work to make edible. I have read them described as "famine" food, as they cost more calories to gather/prepare (by hand that is) than people can actually gain by eating them.
Regarding wheat and other grains, I think until the advent of mechanization, humans were eating very little of these because they require so much work to make edible. I have read them described as "famine" food, as they cost more calories to gather/prepare (by hand that is) than people can actually gain by eating them. So 10,000 years ago, even people who were actively farming wheat wouldn't have been eating loads of it--surely the whole of the population wasn't counting on it for bulk calories at this time, if they were grinding it by hand using stones. I would guess that the elite (chieftans, kings, priests, whatever) and their families/households were the ones doing the eating while the majority (peasants/serfs/slaves) were doing the growing and grinding.
r ranson wrote:Maybe the question I'm looking for is simpler.
How far back do we have to go to find a diet that our bodies are adapted to?
We're all in agreement that the Modern Western diet isn't working.
Do we really have to go back 10,000 years to find a diet that our bodies thrive on?
Could it be less?
What if, our bodies actually thrived on the diet of our individual ancestors 200 years ago? That would give me a North Western European diet heavy in wheat, milk, pulses, cabbage, and beer. But according to the SCD, most of these are 'illegal' foods for good health.
Pecan Media: food forestry and forest garden ebooks
Now available: The Native Persimmon (centennial edition)
When the balance in the gut is disturbed, an overgrowth of intestinal flora can result. Microbes migrate to the small intestine and stomach, inhibiting digestion and competing for nutrients. The gut then becomes overloaded with the byproducts of their digestion. This bacterial overgrowth can be triggered by overuse of antacids, reduced stomach acidity due to aging, weakening of the immune system through malnutrition or poor diet, and alteration of the microbial environment through antibiotic therapy.
The components of our diet, particularly carbohydrates, play an enormous role in influencing the type and number of our intestinal flora. When carbohydrates are not fully digested and absorbed, they remain in our gut, and become nutrition for the microbes we host. The microbes themselves must digest these unused carbohydrates, and they do this through the process of fermentation. The waste products of fermentation are gases, such as methane, carbon dioxide & hydrogen, and both lactic & acetic acids, as well as toxins. All serve to irritate and damage the gut. There is evidence that increased acidity in the gut due to malabsorption and fermentation of carbohydrates, may lead common harmless intestinal bacteria to mutate into more harmful ones. Further, lactic acid produced during the fermentation process has been implicated in the abnormal brain function and behaviour sometimes associated with intestinal disorders. The overgrowth of bacteria into the small intestine triggers a worsening cycle of gas and acid production, which further inhibits absorption and leads to yet more harmful byproducts of fermentation. The enzymes on the surface of the small intestines are destroyed by the now present bacteria, and this further disrupts the digestion and absorption of carbohydrates, leading to further bacterial overgrowth. As both the microbial flora and their byproducts damage the mucosal layer of the small intestine, it is provoked to produce excessive protective mucus, which further inhibits digestion and absorption.
Damage to the mucosal layer involves injury to the microvilli of our absorptive cells. These microvilli act as the last barrier between the nutrition we take in and our bloodstream. As our absorption is inhibited, folic acid and vitamin B12 deficiency can lead to impaired development of microvilli, while an abnormally thick layer of mucus prevents contact between microvilli enzymes and the carbohydrates we ingest. The small intestine responds to this spiraling irritation by producing more goblet (mucus-making) cells, creating yet more mucus. Finally, as the goblet cells become exhausted, the intestinal surface is laid bare, and is further damaged, and possibly ulcerated. As more carbohydrates are left in the gut, they cause water and nutrients to be pulled from the body into the colon, resulting in chronic diarrhea. Absorption is further hindered as diarrhea increases the rate with which food travels through the gut.
The Diet
"The Specific Carbohydrate Diet™ is based on the principle that specifically selected carbohydrates, requiring minimal digestive processes, are well absorbed and leave virtually none to be used for furthering microbial overgrowth in the intestine. As the microbial population decreases due to lack of food, its harmful byproducts also decrease, freeing the intestinal surface of injurious substances. No longer needing protection, the mucus-producing cells stop producing excessive mucus, and carbohydrate digestion is improved. Malabsorption is replaced by absorption. As the individual absorbs energy and nutrients, all the cells in the body are properly nourished, including the cells of the immune system, which then can assist in overcoming the microbial invasion." The simpler the structure of the carbohydrate, the more easily the body digests and absorbs it. Monosaccharides (single molecules of glucose, fructose, or galactose) require no splitting by digestive enzymes in order to be absorbed by the body. These are the sugars we rely on in the diet. They include those found in fruits, honey, some vegetables, and in yoghurt.
Double sugar molecules (disaccharides: lactose, sucrose, maltose and isomaltose) and starches (polysaccharides) are primarily avoided on the diet. Some starches have been shown to be tolerated, particularly those in the legume family (dried beans, lentils and split peas only). However, they must be soaked for 10-12 hours prior to cooking, and the water discarded since it will contain other sugars which are indigestible, but which are removed in the soaking process. Small amounts of legumes may only be added to the diet after about three months. The starches in all grains, corn, and potatoes must be strictly avoided. Corn syrup is also excluded since it contains a mixture of 'short-chain' starches.
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
Bananas grow on a stalk like grain. And in bunches like grain. This tiny ad says "grain"
Roots Demystified by Robert Kourik
https://permies.com/wiki/39095/Roots-Demystified-Robert-Kourik
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