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First Rocket stove heats water with pics  RSS feed

 
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im not that smart to know why i get the suction and draw i get. if i had to say why i would say its because of the insulation and the sloped portland perlite mix that funnels the cooler air around and into the lowest colder part of the bell into my 6'' exhaust hole. its a simple 6'' elbow and i do not have a "recommended" or "advised" 1.5x or larger manifold adapter but the way the portland perlite mix is slopes may act to funnel it like a manifold.

here is a cross section of the front to show the slope.



 
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If your sketch is anywhere near to scale, you do have a good manifold transition to the 6" duct. And your burn tunnel/riser insulation is excellent.
 
F Styles
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Glenn Herbert wrote:If your sketch is anywhere near to scale, you do have a good manifold transition to the 6" duct. And your burn tunnel/riser insulation is excellent.



i doubt its to scale but i tried to get it close as visibly possible.
 
gardener
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Thanks for posting more details. Awesome. Still didn't see much in any of your drawings or vids about how the rocket and the conventional oven are connected.
 
Roberto pokachinni
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the way the portland perlite mix is slopes may act to funnel it like a manifold.

I do think so too. It looks like the sloping base (perlite/portland mix), and the focused slope (8' to 6' adapter type slope) directly into the exhaust would act to "drain" the vortex of heat out of your bell quite efficiently.

How did you join your two 8' stove ducts to contain your loose perlite in the heat riser?
 
F Styles
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Roberto pokachinni wrote:Thanks for posting more details. Awesome. Still didn't see much in any of your drawings or vids about how the rocket and the conventional oven are connected.



its really not anything special. i just cut a hole in both sides of the stove so i could pass the exhaust duct work through it and the heat exchanges from the 350F+ RMH exhaust and heats the oven... thats all there is to it. if i decide to do the oven upgrade i will document it better.
 
F Styles
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Roberto pokachinni wrote:

the way the portland perlite mix is slopes may act to funnel it like a manifold.

I do think so too. It looks like the sloping base (perlite/portland mix), and the focused slope (8' to 6' adapter type slope) directly into the exhaust would act to "drain" the vortex of heat out of your bell quite efficiently.

How did you join your two 8' stove ducts to contain your loose perlite in the heat riser?



when i buy my stove duct work from the hardware store they come unconnected at the seem. most stove ducts has a snap together seem. the duct seems can be linked together to enjoin two ducts and snap together to make a bigger duct. its an easy and cheap way to increase the size of your insulation "container" around your heat riser.

i cut 1 inch off my heat riser because my lid was glowing too red and i was concerned that it would shorten the life of my lid and i like my lid because it fits so well. i do not need to use a collar to keep it tight and do not need to use any fiberglass tape to keep it from leaking. it snaps on and off perfectly with a little pressure and i dont want to lose it. other than reducing the desired lid temperature im not sure if cutting a bit off affected it in a bad way and if it did it was not noticeable.
 
gardener
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F Styles, you won't like my comment again. But carrefull with your non gasketed lid. I've had the problem lately, with a rocket soo powerfull, that it was creating overpresure on a regular basis. And the problem with this, is: You don't see any smoke. But the gases still go to inside the living space. I ended up with bad headaches a few times before understanding what was going on. You don't need much nasty gases to get you ill.
 
F Styles
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Satamax Antone wrote:F Styles, you won't like my comment again. But carrefull with your non gasketed lid. I've had the problem lately, with a rocket soo powerfull, that it was creating overpresure on a regular basis. And the problem with this, is: You don't see any smoke. But the gases still go to inside the living space. I ended up with bad headaches a few times before understanding what was going on. You don't need much nasty gases to get you ill.



thanks for the experience. i respect experience and constructive criticism and it humbles me. its authoritarian, hair splitting, ninnying that rubs me the wrong way. see im all smiles

i will keep an eye on that with the collar ready if needed. thanks again.

once you see how i am approached its easy to communicate.
 
F Styles
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i think the fastest hottest and strongest way to start a rocket stove is with wood shavings. its how i get my 30 second start ups. i mentioned previously i start my rocket stove with wood shavings and i use this draw knife to make them. my 3 year old daughter loves to help with every thing. very bright little girl that has to do it all. she already knows how to read, write and we are working on math at this point. yup 3 years old.



 
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My personal opinion: there is no "losing" with innovating or experimenting. The way I see it, you either succeed or you learn. Either outcome is beneficial, even if you are "learning" rather than "succeeding". It still relates to the hands-on experience and the apple falling on Issac Newtons head.

We don't have to love the next guy's ideas, but we can succeed or learn from anyones experience. In the end we can all join heads and build an awesome 3-headed dragon perhaps

Cheers to my fellow pyro-permies
 
Roberto pokachinni
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Thanks for your further clarifications. I get your system, pretty much, now. I will, at some point soon, review the whole post to see if I have any more questions. Thanks again.

Great that your kid is so involved and that you are educating her to this degree! Kids are learning machines; it's what they do. The whole education system has it backwards; all they need to do is to encourage the kids to study what they want to learn and then provide the tools (how to read, write, do math, do physics to accomplish the tasks) and the rest would happen naturally, like play.

Awesome stuff, Styles. Keep up the inventions!
 
Roberto pokachinni
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Have you seen this one Styles? This guy is pretty funny. I like the glass viewer. I really like the air intake below the riser.
 
Satamax Antone
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Roberto, his flame is low temp, red orange color gives the clue. The secondary air intage is most certainly cooling the fire too. So far, the best way i know to add secondary air to a J tube, is the P channel. J tubes run already pretty high on excess air. So adding a secondary air inlet is not necessary.
 
F Styles
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Roberto pokachinni wrote:

Have you seen this one Styles? This guy is pretty funny. I like the glass viewer. I really like the air intake below the riser.



i have seen that video, and Mr Antone is correct. i have experimented with extra system air injection and it fools with the already good design or the rocket stove. the p channel does a good job of keeping the wood from completely shutting off air to the flame and works well. if i had the time and materials i would have designed my system so it sucks air off the outside very bottom of the bell and pipe it to the front access port creating more draw and increasing air intake temps for better and hotter burns. i still may do it but it may have to wait until spring. it will consist of wrapping a copper pipe around the very bottom of my bell on the outside near the exhaust manifold and then pipe it to the front of my access port. i will document with pics.
 
Roberto pokachinni
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Roberto, his flame is low temp, red orange color gives the clue. The secondary air intage is most certainly cooling the fire too. So far, the best way i know to add secondary air to a J tube, is the P channel. J tubes run already pretty high on excess air. So adding a secondary air inlet is not necessary.



cool to know. Thanks guys.

I was wondering about the orange flame. I was thinking that that was rather 'cool' flamage. I was thinking that it would be bluer and or almost clear. What color should it be?

By P channel, are you meaning a grate underneath the burn tunnel that give's are under the fire/coals?

air off the outside very bottom of the bell and pipe it to the front access port creating more draw and increasing air intake temps for better and hotter burns. i still may do it but it may have to wait until spring. it will consist of wrapping a copper pipe around the very bottom of my bell on the outside near the exhaust manifold and then pipe it to the front of my access port. i will document with pics.



Yes. Something similar had been bouncing around in my brain\ I was thinking would be a good plan too.
 
F Styles
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you are looking for white and bright colors and blues are usually created by gases and not organic material from like wood... the blue flame edges you may get are from the gases being released in the wood and you can see the color flame chart i posted here a little over half way down color temps of flames
 
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Roberto Pokachinni ; This recent video clearly shows the general features of the P Channel ! Interestingly while it virtually guarantees that the J-Bend style RMH, is never starved

for air; its primary function is to increase Fuel/Air mixtures through increased turbulence! It also has an under appreciated Cooling effect on the Firebricks on top of the Burn Tunnel

and lying closest to the Feed Tube. With the P channel in place those firebricks rarely suffer from fracture or other signs of localized overheating ! ///// See Link Below :


http://permies.com/t/52658/rocket-stoves/video-Kirk


The channels clearly shown at approximately ~01:00~ to ~01:19~, briefly just after the Barrel is reset on the Rocket burner Base @ ~ 10:01~and again@ ~12:20~ to ~12:30~, and

~12:45~ to ~13:30~, Briefly@ ~14:00~ then 'working- @ ~14:45~ . Again the P channel has more than 1 function and in a Craft where there is often a large difference in the working

performance between each D.I.Y. Rocket it is easy to find Rocketeers who both love and totally dis-regard the P channel. - My next J-bend style RMH may require its placement to

control Smoke-back ! This would be still another of the P channels many functions ! For the Craft ! Big AL

 
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I was thinking about good draft/draw in your RMH. The manifold may have added to good draft/draw, but in your case I think it is the chimney cap, same as my case. Before I don't have good draft/draw, then changes was made with bigger manifold, then higher chimney, I got better draft/draw of course, but I think my RMH had very good draft/draw when changed to a new cap for my chimney.

The attached first photo is not a good cap, will not give good draft/draw, but the second cap in the second photo, I notice the different. The photo is not clear, but the second cap is 6 inches away from the chimney. I think the big open space between the chimney and the cap allows the win to blow by and create good draft/draw.

Your chimney cap is a T 6 inches, right? I think the 6 inches T cap too, would have big open space between chimney and top for win to blow by.

We need some one to do experiment. If someone would change their cap to one with big open space in between cap and chimney, and notice if the draft/draw be any different.

I am not sure about this, because a lot of changes made to my RMH during the time. Hope someone would change their cap and observed. My good cap is only $4.00
bad-cap.jpg
[Thumbnail for bad-cap.jpg]
Good-cap.jpg
[Thumbnail for Good-cap.jpg]
 
F Styles
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i use a standard 6'' static chimney cowl and have experience since i was 7 years old with wood stoves and do notice a difference when changing cowls. i have notice less draw from anything other than a standard static cowl. it seems there may be environments where more sophisticated cowls may be needed but i have not experienced them. my chimney is on my south side with western wind in the morning and then eastern wind in the evening and my static cowl works well. recently my cowl fell off in a bad storm and i had to use a very large DIY tin and it failed to have the same draw.

you higher chimney will generate much more draw for sure.

may i ask what the copper coil in the back ground is for? are you doing summer water heating on your roof?

 
Diana Lee
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To increase draft/draw, I think the high chimney should be first priority. That's what I learn from the guy at Permies, and I totally agree to it. I had low chimney before and it wasn't good. Until they told me to crease chimney and that's one of the great change to my RMH. The high chimney had chance to meet the free win blow by, and that definitely help increase draft/draw. But if we have the high chimney and then have the silly cap like one in my first photo, then that counter the effect of the advantage of the free win blow on top. So if we have high chimney to meet free air blow by, then allow the air to blow by, by having good cap with wide open space. That's my 2 cent opinion, it should remain theory until someone test and confirm it. All I said should be 2 cent opinion and remain theories until confirm.

However, what is a standard static cowl? Excuse my English. I am not a native born, would you post a picture of the standard static cowl. I want to see in case I want to change my cap to a new one

The coil is for hot water. My hot water is different than your hot water. Your hot water is for house hold use, so the hotter the better. My hot water is for the fish pond, so at any point it has to be lower than 100 degree otherwise it will kill all the bacteria then my fishes will be in trouble. I put that coil on top of the barrel. The pump continuously pumps water through the coil, it heats water up just a little. I can't put it at the hot spot because too hot kill my bacteria. This coil is not that good, the water run through the coil increase only a few degree, so I burn RMH 8 hours a day to keep my ponds at 70 degree. I have 2 ponds, 425 gal and 275 gal.
 
F Styles
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Bacon Lee wrote:
To increase draft/draw, I think the high chimney should be first priority.

The high chimney had chance to meet the free win blow by, and that definitely help increase draft/draw.

However, what is a standard static cowl? Excuse my English. I am not a native born, would you post a picture of the standard static cowl. I want to see in case I want to change my cap to a new one.

I have 2 ponds, 425 gal and 275 gal.



high chimney is important but also almost equally important is to insulate it as much to the top as you can. i just wrapped my 6'' vertical stack with thin insulation and then slid the next size duct over it which for me was 8" and it worked awesome a little silver aluminum tape at the top to seal it up and its perfect.

static meaning it doesnt move or spin. standard meaning nothing elaborate and using your favorite search engine for "static standard cowl" showed me this site standard static cowl

standard static cowl kinda like yours


air will effect your draw either good or bad and not necessarily needed for good draw. most important for a good draw is a good rocket stove design, with functional horizontal length, and vertical insulated stack height with environment appropriate cowl.
 
F Styles
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my water heating upgrade has been stalled until a bit warmer weather so i can flush the water heater tank i have sitting outside. the weather got a bit brisk with a squaw of snow and it has put the project on ice.

i do believe i will be trying the oven upgrade so i can get my baking area up to higher cooking temps and i will take some pics with the poopy camera i have.

i did not build my system to try to be unique but only to fulfill my needs. some say i have a L rocket stove, while others say i have a batch stove, but i designed it as a standard J rocket stove and the idea of a feed tube grew into a large feed chamber.

when i stack it with a full load of wood it will burn from the bottom most of the time and do it at high temps, but since there is over a cubic foot of wood in there the wood settles the way it wants and can go through different stages of temperature, speed and efficiency.

at times the wood may get hung up for a bit until the pieces turn to charcoal and slide in front of the air path an then jump into high speed again, but it never really burns all at once like a batch system does since its dependent on the air moving across the bottom from the front access port. its interesting being in another room when you hear it settle and you hear the dragon bark back up to speed and she starts to growl with a passion lusting for the fuel that hangs on the sides teasing her with the next bite of food.

this video just uploaded and will be available 1/16 3am

this clip shows the large flames drawing deep into her throat


 
F Styles
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The new upgrade. The feed chamber extension lid. For those times when ya just need a bit longer burn with out fussing with it.

 
Satamax Antone
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Intresting. Will you pretty the whole thing up?
 
F Styles
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Satamax Antone wrote:Intresting. Will you pretty the whole thing up?

WHAT! she is purdy! be careful what you say around her. the last guy that said that got sucked into the burn chamber while she screamed "feed me". you know darn well beauty comes from the inside.

for some reason i can imagine the little stove of horrors? hmmm if anyone is interested ill sell them the rights.
 
Satamax Antone
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Well, i have hard time even with my builds. And i don't use barrels anymore. i want to become a pro bricklayer; i mean having pro results; so i can build nice masonry stoves.

Your thing starts more and more to resemble the "vertical batch" that we're trying to invent with Indipendentenergy at Donkey's. He's a bit ahead of me. But i might give your burn tunnel below the firebox a shot one day. If the "flame developer" doesn't work.

Did the burn tunnel ever get blocked by embers?

And did the fire ever go out because the fuel didn't go down well enough?
 
John McDoodle
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thats funny- i had mentioned the vertical batch concept a few days ago on my portable rmh thread. great minds think alike - they say
 
F Styles
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it doesnt really burn like a batch box. the way i designed the bottom air flow it burns the wood at the bottom and can go through multiple levels of temperature and efficiency. i have seen the horizontal batch box design and they burn the entire batch.
 
F Styles
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Satamax Antone wrote:Well, i have hard time even with my builds. And i don't use barrels anymore. i want to become a pro bricklayer; i mean having pro results; so i can build nice masonry stoves.

Your thing starts more and more to resemble the "vertical batch" that we're trying to invent with Indipendentenergy at Donkey's. He's a bit ahead of me. But i might give your burn tunnel below the firebox a shot one day. If the "flame developer" doesn't work.

Did the burn tunnel ever get blocked by embers?

And did the fire ever go out because the fuel didn't go down well enough?



i laid a few cinder blocks but thats it. i would also like to be prostyle at brick.

it doesnt really burn like a batch although you can coatch it to burn many ways. i burnt it for almost a week with out dragging out the ash... when it gets full of ash the suction pull ash almost through the whole system.... its crazy draw. if i had to suggest one thing i would tell people to keep the slope in the bell from high to low toward the manifold. that design alone compresses and funnels the air into the exhaust.

the tunnel never gets blocked it gets sucked through if its not emptied.

once its lit it doesnt go out. if any wood gets caught up the heat and flames turn the wood into charcoal and then it drops back down and burns at super high temps.
 
Satamax Antone
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F Styles wrote:it doesnt really burn like a batch box. the way i designed the bottom air flow it burns the wood at the bottom and can go through multiple levels of temperature and efficiency. i have seen the horizontal batch box design and they burn the entire batch.



Well, i made three so far.

They don't burn all the wood at once.

I start a kindling fire in front of the port, add a few bigger pieces, so i have embers. Then pile up bigger wood so the whole firebox except the last inch on top is filled. Fire creeps from the port to the front door at the bottom, and from the port up. When the fire has reached the front door, against the draft. Which takes time. Then it goes up, and the whole batch is set into flames by then. And it's violent. Then you get a big ember stage rapidly, since all the wood at the front of the port has been eaten a while ago. And the embers at the top, piled on more embers start colapsing, untill it's all reloadable. It takes between 2 and 3 hours with the crap wood i have. Peter was saying 55 minutes usualy for his.

Sure it's not like yours. But the vertical version i envisioned with Indi and a few others is closer in design to yours. And i'm sure the problem with the vertical feeding, coupled to a port, will be the clogging of the port by embers. Hence my question. Does the tunnel ever get clogged by embers?
 
F Styles
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Then it goes up, and the whole batch is set into flames by then. And it's violent.



That was what i was describing when i said it all burns up. it has to start on fire somewhere.

Does the tunnel ever get clogged by embers?



no sir, i have never experienced a clog up of any kind, either from embers or ashes. it seems as though the more embers and coals at the bottom the more furious it burns. it may be because of my large feed chamber but when it is burning furiously it echos as it growls. i have had my thick propane tank feed chamber glowing red before. i know i have to be pushing 2500F+ in the heat riser and its freaky hot.

with my extension lid i can double my burn times.
 
F Styles
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here is an end of season inspection video of my rocket stove. bell, burn tunnel and heat riser seem to be the same as the day i constructed it with no heat damage. the feed chamber has been abused with slamming full size logs in it, poking and scraping but it is in solid full operational condition. the exhaust was boring with no back up or damage.



 
Satamax Antone
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Not much soot, that's good. Tells me that it's burning well. Finaly, i quite like the thing as it is. Tho that flue hole still bugs me!

Would be intresting to put a testo in the exhaust, to have a little sniff!
 
F Styles
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i am not sure what you are calling the "flue hole"

i dont have a testo but if i did i would test it. when its not clear only steam comes out, no smoke and there is no wood burning smell to my nose.

i am hoping that with the top of my bell maxing out my temperature gauge at 900F i am sure its much hotter and with my burn tunnel bricks glowing orange i am sure its burning the wood pretty efficiently.
 
Satamax Antone
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Hole at the bottom of the barrel. But nevermind, you already explained it's big enough. It just looks small.

If your bricks are glowing orange, http://www.ceramicartdaily.net/PMI/KilnFiringChart.pdf

That's the right kind of temps.
 
F Styles
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i know my manifold looks small, probably because its at the bottom of my bell but if it wasnt big enough im sure my rocket stove would not work correctly. so far my wife and i are happy with my first rocket stove build. if i were to do it over there are only a few small changes i would make. it looks like its a keeper and has out performed my expectations.
 
F Styles
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as yall can see in my above upgrade picture... the high heat paint has been fading from the pic i showed on the first page. i guess this rocket stove is getting a bit hotter than the recommended temperature range on the paint. i think the paint I used on the rocket stove is rated for 1200F.

Well folks. Looks like i need higher heat rated paint?


i built a fan for cold starts and never use it. i think i came to the conclusion as to one of the many reasons why i have such good cold starts in my rocket stove. I have a 50 gal hot water tank inside my last mass bench and it sucks the rest of the heat out of the exhaust and stores it for a very long time... i can go days without a fire and then when another cold snap hits i can fire the dragon right up with out any smoke back because the water heater has enough stored heat in it to keep the up draft into my chimney keeping cold air bubbles from forming and blocking my chimney up. it also doesnt hurt to have a decent designed rocket stove, enough chimney and a good exhaust run all bundled together creates a system my wife and i can be very happy with on my first build... call it luck, call it researching before building, good tuition and mechanically inclined hands on... call it anything but a cold house. my wife an i could care less what anyone else calls it, we call it warm.
 
F Styles
Posts: 455
Location: climate zone 6b
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From now on since the character of my stove seems to be unique enough to label, hence forth I shall call it "ROCKET MAG"!

This stove may be called a "Rocket mag heater" and "Rocket mag stove" is also acceptable.
 
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