Inexpensive vacuum formed ceramic fiber heat risers here in USA

So curiousity has me asking a few questions about this on my own search for knowledge. One being about the heat riser and barrel. I do not recall reading anywhere (or maybe don't remember) if the distance from the outside of the heat riser to barrel clearance has an effect on the heat transfer to the barrel, and if so question 2 will it leave more heat in the exhaust (going to bell) to allow the bench and internal water loop to have more heat to pick up? Also what sort of temperature could be anticipated on the inside of the bench as continued heat transfer to the coils. On that note if someone were to duplicate a similar build would there be a reason to go with a more filled (as in mass bench with hurried coils) vs the open air design as is being constructed? Or is this something we just have to see? I would think a full bench would keep temperature longer however be harder to build the initial heat.

I'm with you on the cob, clay and vermiculite. I've search this site trying to find the best material for absorbing and maintaining the heat. I really like your ceramic riser, simple no fuss. However I must say I think you deserve more credit than you give yourself credit for. Your heater is probably one of the more intricate pieces of engineering I've seen here. Plus all the cutting and fitting took a lot of patience. Don't get me wrong I like it but I think what you gain not making cob you make up for with all the detail. I too would like to purchase 2 of the ceramic risers. Thanks for all the effort you put into this endeavor.

Jon McLain wrote:So curiousity has me asking a few questions about this on my own search for knowledge. One being about the heat riser and barrel. I do not recall reading anywhere (or maybe don't remember) if the distance from the outside of the heat riser to barrel clearance has an effect on the heat transfer to the barrel, and if so question 2 will it leave more heat in the exhaust (going to bell) to allow the bench and internal water loop to have more heat to pick up? Also what sort of temperature could be anticipated on the inside of the bench as continued heat transfer to the coils. On that note if someone were to duplicate a similar build would there be a reason to go with a more filled (as in mass bench with hurried coils) vs the open air design as is being constructed? Or is this something we just have to see? I would think a full bench would keep temperature longer however be harder to build the initial heat.

A couple years ago conventional wisdom called for just 2", but Peter van den Berg, the leading researcher and experimenter on the subject, is saying a foot between top of riser and the barrel now for a 6" batch box design. http://batchrocket.eu/en/building#bellsizing

I have about 11". Lesser clearances lead to a hotter barrel top, but that causes faster break down of the metal in the barrel and quicker need for replacement. It also constricts free air movement, leading to failure of the rocket to maintain its output once a bench/bell is added.

The folks at http://donkey32.proboards.com seem to take a more scientific approach to rocket mass heaters, and a lot of them are commercial builders in Europe. The emerging consensus there seems to be that bench/bells are more reliable and effective and are based on the centuries old proven principles of the Russian masonry stove.

Be sure to read how and why a bell works at http://batchrocket.eu/en/building#belltheory

I suspect it's just a matter of physics, with the more effective stratification of gases in the expanded volume of the bench/bell more readily transfering its latent heat to the masonry due to decreased speed of the smoke stream, and flue pipe inside cob system having a faster smoke stream less able to transfer heat but stalling easier than a bell, but I'm not sure.

Brian Kopp wrote:

Jon McLain wrote:So curiousity has me asking a few questions about this on my own search for knowledge. One being about the heat riser and barrel. I do not recall reading anywhere (or maybe don't remember) if the distance from the outside of the heat riser to barrel clearance has an effect on the heat transfer to the barrel, and if so question 2 will it leave more heat in the exhaust (going to bell) to allow the bench and internal water loop to have more heat to pick up? Also what sort of temperature could be anticipated on the inside of the bench as continued heat transfer to the coils. On that note if someone were to duplicate a similar build would there be a reason to go with a more filled (as in mass bench with hurried coils) vs the open air design as is being constructed? Or is this something we just have to see? I would think a full bench would keep temperature longer however be harder to build the initial heat.

A couple years ago conventional wisdom called for just 2", but Peter van den Berg, the leading researcher and experimenter on the subject, is saying a foot between top of riser and the barrel now for a 6" batch box design. I have about 11". Lesser clearances lead to a hotter barrel top, but that causes faster break down of the metal in the barrel and quicker need for replacement. It also constricts free air movement, leading to failure of the rocket to maintain its output once a bench/bell is added.

The folks at http://donkey32.proboards.com seem to take a more scientific approach to rocket mass heaters, and a lot of them are commercial builders in Europe. The emerging consensus these seems to be that bench/bells are more reliable and effective. I suspect it's just a matter of physics, with the more effective stratification of gases in the expanded volume of the bench/bell more readily transfering its latent heat to the masonry due to decreased speed of the smoke stream, and flue pipe inside cob stalling easier than a bell, but I'm not sure.

Agrees on the point of top of riser to drum, I was curious if there was any "correct" spacing on the sides of the riser to sides of drum?

Jon McLain wrote:Agrees on the point of top of riser to drum, I was curious if there was any "correct" spacing on the sides of the riser to sides of drum?

I suspect that in this case too, "more is better." Anything that creates drag or friction or restricts free air flow within this system is "bad."

Jeffrey Sullivan wrote:I'm with you on the cob, clay and vermiculite. I've search this site trying to find the best material for absorbing and maintaining the heat. I really like your ceramic riser, simple no fuss. However I must say I think you deserve more credit than you give yourself credit for. Your heater is probably one of the more intricate pieces of engineering I've seen here. Plus all the cutting and fitting took a lot of patience. Don't get me wrong I like it but I think what you gain not making cob you make up for with all the detail. I too would like to purchase 2 of the ceramic risers. Thanks for all the effort you put into this endeavor.

Thanks. I have no specialized skills in metal work though. My background is as a foot surgeon. I just picked up the tools and started playing and taught myself, with a bit of internet research and watching YouTube videos along the way. By far the most difficult aspect so far was designing, cutting and fitting all the stove pipe and the bypass and 6" holes in the barrels.

Frankly the "best" material for absorbing, maintaining then slowly releasing the heat is plain ole water. But it carries the not insignificant risk of steam explosion in a closed system. That's why I'm trying to harvest the heat and carry it away from the rocket heater into a remote body of water with an open system.

I just found almost a cord of 3"x 1/2" pine boards, 4' to 14' long, squirreled away in the rafters of our garage. The previous owners who built this house must have used it when they made a temporary apartment in the garage while they built this house.  All of the nails were cleaned out prior to storing it 60 years ago in the rafters of the attic of this garage. It's bone dry and perfectly sized for the rocket stove I just built, as rocket mass heaters seem to prefer small wood over the 4 cords of seasoned firewood I have CSS.

Brian Kopp wrote:
Thanks. I have no specialized skills in metal work though. My background is as a foot surgeon. I just picked up the tools and started playing and taught myself, with a bit of internet research and watching YouTube videos along the way.  

As I read this part I was wondering if you were talking about the RMH or foot surgery kinda had me laughing, I did know what you were referring to but I have a strange sense of humor

Jon McLain wrote:
As I read this part I was wondering if you were talking about the RMH or foot surgery kinda had me laughing, I did know what you were referring to but I have a strange sense of humor

Works for me

Patients used to ask me if I knew how to do a certain (common) procedure and how many I had done. Even though I had completed a surgical residency, I usually replied that I knew everything about it because I Googled it last night then watched a couple videos on YouTube.

Brian, I'm planning to place 3 IBC totes on top of a RMH bench in my aquaponics greenhouse. The original thought is that the bench would heat the greenhouse and also the water for the fish in the IBCs. The fish can take a constant 80-90 degrees so I guess all that water mass might also heat the rest of the greenhouse. I might even wait to insulate the tanks and see if they'll actually need it.

Jeffrey Sullivan wrote:Brian, I'm planning to place 3 IBC totes on top of a RMH bench in my aquaponics greenhouse. The original thought is that the bench would heat the greenhouse and also the water for the fish in the IBCs. The fish can take a constant 80-90 degrees so I guess all that water mass might also heat the rest of the greenhouse. I might even wait to insulate the tanks and see if they'll actually need it.

That's an excellent idea!

And where those water totes can be camouflaged they could be used as a water heat sink radiator in various rooms of the house and plumbed via 12v circulator pumps to coils of copper in the bench to distribute the heat in various rooms of the structure. If you used solar panels to recharge 12v batteries to run the pumps it could be completely off grid.

My bench is almost done. Now I need to plumb the copper tubing coils. The 2'x2' pavers were 50lbs each, so with a double layer of 8 of them on top this bench will constitute ~3000lbs of mass.

Great job Brian! Messaged you earlier today did it come through? My phone acts up from time to time

Jon McLain wrote:Great job Brian! Messaged you earlier today did it come through? My phone acts up from time to time

Yes but I have had my hands full all day. I only rested long enough to update the threads. I made a lot of progress today and I'm tired and sore but happy that I'm almost ready to fire it.

The 60 year old lumber I found in the attic of our garage. 3"x 1/2" boards which I cut on the bench top table saw to 16" length firewood, perfect for the rocket stove.

I'm curious how your going to seal that bell barrel to the bench housing?

Jon McLain wrote:I'm curious how your going to seal that bell barrel to the bench housing?

I have some white ceramic fiber batting from the HVAC industry that they use for sealing around industrial flues that I'll put along the sides of the barrel then I'm going to use some  ceramic fiber board to plug up the top of the barrel where the 2 x 2 pavers don't completely close it off. I can run the plumbing through that piece  of ceramic fiber board easily.

I'd be interested in some risers as well I'm from Perry county pa would also love to see someone's build

Dustin Rahn wrote:I'd be interested in some risers as well I'm from Perry county pa would also love to see someone's build

You're certainly welcome to come visit any time Dustin. I'm about 2 hours west of you via Route 22.

Shoot me a PM - I might still have a riser or 2 left that you could pick up.

Secondary air path.

Hey Brian why not flip the bypass and see how she runs?

Jon McLain wrote:Hey Brian why not flip the bypass and see how she runs?

That's not a bad idea.

There's nothing closing off the separate pipe to the bench. Maybe I'll block off both pipes to the bench with some of the 6" hole cutouts that I cut in the barrels and/or ceramic blanket insulation and give it a try later.

Jack of all trades here. I'm learning to sweat copper connections tonight. Fortunately I found my dad's old 50/50 solder. Supposedly half lead is easier to learn on.

How do you know if it was done right?

Well, that's done. Now to set it in the bench tomorrow and finish sealing up the bench. I'll hook up the pump first to check for leaks.

Brian, thanks for all the research and time spent in this group think. It strikes me that any one of us could readily assemble a small production facility and custom build & ship components like this in several models & special sizes to less experienced carpenters and homeowners everywhere. People have bigger things to be concerned with besides reinventing the wheel. Obviously, the ideal business model would be built on open-source, 'people care' services and pricing at the component/base-model end, while enabling custom installers to prosper as they carry the load of actual on-site customization-issues.

Ultimately, this is what DirecTV and DISH should have done with their once formidable group of quality custom installers. Instead they screwed us completely! My thought is that any client ought to be able to order a kit for around $400 to $1,k which comes drop-shipped with an active list of regional custom installers all supported through the vendor's site, much the way Paul so generously has done here. Offering free info on sand, rock, pearlite, beautiful cast fittings, etc. through partners wishing to provide local access to all these things, plus reasonable mark-ups on core company shippable items, would enable this company to quickly establish market saturation.

The key is customization and architectural integration. How does starting pay of $32.Hr for the 'lead,' and $22.Hr for their 'trusted assistant,' in cash, sound to someone who is otherwise consumed with basic survival, 24/7/365, on their of-grid redoubt? People would be thrilled to have even higher priced turn-key solutions for these second homes in Breckenridge and Aspen. (Free lift-tickets pending!)

My thought is that any client ought to be able to order a kit for around $400 to $1,k which comes drop-shipped with an active list of regional custom installers all supported through the vendor's site, much the way Paul so generously has done here. Offering free info on sand, rock, pearlite, beautiful cast fittings, etc. through partners wishing to provide local access to all these things, plus reasonable mark-ups on core company shippable items, would enable this company to quickly establish market saturation.

Just what I've been thinking. Why hasn't someone jumped all over this? Sign me up for one.  I've done some online searching and found there are companies that will build anything you design out of ceramic fiber. Quantity of course brings down the price.

Tom-Scott Gordon wrote:Brian, thanks for all the research and time spent in this group think. It strikes me that any one of us could readily assemble a small production facility and custom build & ship components like this in several models & special sizes to less experienced carpenters and homeowners everywhere. People have bigger things to be concerned with besides reinventing the wheel. Obviously, the ideal business model would be built on open-source, 'people care' services and pricing at the component/base-model end, while enabling custom installers to prosper as they carry the load of actual on-site customization-issues.

Ultimately, this is what DirecTV and DISH should have done with their once formidable group of quality custom installers. Instead they screwed us completely! My thought is that any client ought to be able to order a kit for around $400 to $1,k which comes drop-shipped with an active list of regional custom installers all supported through the vendor's site, much the way Paul so generously has done here. Offering free info on sand, rock, pearlite, beautiful cast fittings, etc. through partners wishing to provide local access to all these things, plus reasonable mark-ups on core company shippable items, would enable this company to quickly establish market saturation.

The key is customization and architectural integration. How does starting pay of $32.Hr for the 'lead,' and $22.Hr for their 'trusted assistant,' in cash, sound to someone who is otherwise consumed with basic survival, 24/7/365, on their of-grid redoubt? People would be thrilled to have even higher priced turn-key solutions for these second homes in Breckenridge and Aspen. (Free lift-tickets pending!)

Jeffrey Sullivan wrote:

My thought is that any client ought to be able to order a kit for around $400 to $1,k which comes drop-shipped with an active list of regional custom installers all supported through the vendor's site, much the way Paul so generously has done here. Offering free info on sand, rock, pearlite, beautiful cast fittings, etc. through partners wishing to provide local access to all these things, plus reasonable mark-ups on core company shippable items, would enable this company to quickly establish market saturation.

Just what I've been thinking. Why hasn't someone jumped all over this? Sign me up for one.  I've done some online searching and found there are companies that will build anything you design out of ceramic fiber. Quantity of course brings down the price.

You're both reading my mind That's really what this test bed is all about, and I have a collapsible/ portable 5" model already designed as a kit. It will be available as a deck/patio/tent/ice fishing shack/cabin (and emergency?) heater/cooker and I already have all the supply stream set up and an established corporation willing to market it. Stay tuned...

Permies forum member Jon (from this thread) joined me tonight for the first trial firing. (Thanks again Jon!)

It smoked back a bit when it was cold but once it was at full burn and the barrel stove primary air was completely closed, it did not smoke at all. It burned approx 1:15 and the highest temp reached on the barrel top was 790 degrees F. Not bad for a first trial. I know what needs sealed up with furnace cement before the next burn.

Brian thanks again for inviting me out for the initial firing and general hangout time. It was exciting to meet someone in this area who is building one of these and is interested in this stuff as well. I am glad I got to be a part of your build and thank you for the experience as it will help me with my build too

Jon, you've been dubbed "Igor"

Satamax Antone wrote:Jon, you've been dubbed "Igor"

I have to admit, that made me laugh out loud!

So how is this project going?

Tom-Scott Gordon wrote:Brian, thanks for all the research and time spent in this group think. It strikes me that any one of us could readily assemble a small production facility and custom build & ship components like this in several models & special sizes to less experienced carpenters and homeowners everywhere. People have bigger things to be concerned with besides reinventing the wheel. Obviously, the ideal business model would be built on open-source, 'people care' services and pricing at the component/base-model end, while enabling custom installers to prosper as they carry the load of actual on-site customization-issues.

Ultimately, this is what DirecTV and DISH should have done with their once formidable group of quality custom installers. Instead they screwed us completely! My thought is that any client ought to be able to order a kit for around $400 to $1,k which comes drop-shipped with an active list of regional custom installers all supported through the vendor's site, much the way Paul so generously has done here. Offering free info on sand, rock, pearlite, beautiful cast fittings, etc. through partners wishing to provide local access to all these things, plus reasonable mark-ups on core company shippable items, would enable this company to quickly establish market saturation.

The key is customization and architectural integration. How does starting pay of $32.Hr for the 'lead,' and $22.Hr for their 'trusted assistant,' in cash, sound to someone who is otherwise consumed with basic survival, 24/7/365, on their of-grid redoubt? People would be thrilled to have even higher priced turn-key solutions for these second homes in Breckenridge and Aspen. (Free lift-tickets pending!)

Jeffrey Sullivan wrote:

Just what I've been thinking. Why hasn't someone jumped all over this? Sign me up for one.  I've done some online searching and found there are companies that will build anything you design out of ceramic fiber. Quantity of course brings down the price.

John C Daley wrote:So how is this project going?

I'm working with this company to make a vacuum formed ceramic fiber rocket stove core now. Once I have the shippable core ready for sale, I'll restock these risers and have them available again. However it will no longer be a "group buy" so there will be a price increase.

As far as this particular rocket mass heater project goes it was a valuable and successful learning experience but I've subsequently torn it apart and gone another direction. See my other thread https://permies.com/t/65256/portable-collapsible-rocket-stove-deck

The copper coils are being re purposed in a pool heater that will set on top of the current rocket stove and use a 12v pump and solar panels.

Brian,

Is the only size that is available,  the 6 in ID?  I'm planning on building an 8 in system.  
Thank you.
Gary

Gary Fisher wrote:Brian,

Is the only size that is available,  the 6 in ID?  I'm planning on building an 8 in system.  
Thank you.
Gary

Hi Gary,
Each size requires a separate set up/mold fee of at least $1000 plus a per unit fee and I’ve only gotten the 6” ID riser set up. (And that was only because they forgot to include the mold set up fee in the original price quote!) so I do not have access to 8” risers at present. If there is a demand for them in the future I’ll look into making them available, but I can no longer afford to set up a group buy so it would be at a reasonable retail price.

Right now I’m working on getting a two piece vacuum formed ceramic fiber rocket heater shippable core [ https://permies.com/t/69539/Shippable-cores-progress-report ] into production so an 8” riser is definitely down the road for me.
Thanks,
Brian

Okay Brian,

Thanks for your quick reply.
Gary

Brian James wrote:Hi folks,
I know a lot of people on various forums are looking for a source of affordable ceramic heat risers here in the US. I sent queries to a dozen US manufacturers here in the eastern half of the country over the past month and finally found a factory in Pittsburgh that is willing to produce these in small quantities at very affordable prices.

I am not in the stove industry and don't desire to make a business out of this. Other forums, however, often put together a forum "group buy" to get a good quantity price and meet the minimum purchase quantity on a desired item.

I sent the manufacturer specs for its application and current European and American photos of what is currently in use in rocket mass heaters. I want this to be completely open/honest so that no one thinks any profits are being made, so I'll simply post the information I received by email (that way it's open source, anyone can do likewise):


Brian,

Per your request, here is your price for a Vacuum Formed Riser Sleeve.

2600 F Vacuum Formed Fiber Sleeve 6” ID x 8” OD x 24” Long
$ 36.00 each

FOB – Pittsburgh, PA
Lead time = 3-4 weeks ARO

Miminum order of $ 200.00

If you have any questions please let us know.

Thank you,
Product Sales Manager
Temtek Solutions www.temteksolutions.com
2 John Street | Mckees Rocks, PA 15136
Tel: 888-265-2608 | Local: 412-771-5533
Cell: 412-334-0618


I've subsequently requested these be manufactured with male and female ends for ease of stacking. That will raise the per unit price a small amount.

My question is whether anyone here would be interested in a "group buy" on these risers?

I would be willing to arrange the group buy, by picking them up from Pittsburgh, packaging them and shipping them individually. Total cost will depend on the final cost of the individual riser, packaging costs and actual shipping costs. I'm estimating around $85 total per unit, but I've never done this before, so I may be over or underestimating the cost to package them securely and ship them via the best shipping option. Anyone who lives close enough to west central PA is welcome to pick one up in person to save packaging and shipping costs.

My only "motive" in doing this is to pick up one or two for myself (I'm on an extremely tight budget) and friends to experiment with and make them available to others in the same situation. I'm good at researching but my experimenting days with casting etc are just about over due to health trouble and lack of space for tinkering.

Please let me know your thoughts and please give me a heads up if I'm going about this incorrectly here or missed something important in the tech involved.

I also posted this at http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1948/affordable-commercial-vacuum-formed-ceramic and there is a good discussion with the experts there who thought it was a good price for a good quality unit.

Unfortunately this company no longer exists. I’m talking to the company that bought them out to see if they’ll make more of these available.

That’s too bad Brian.  Hopefully the new company saved the mold.

Frustrating that you can get things made relatively easily in the US. Does anyone know a manufacturer of riser sleeves in the UK?