When to trellis my grape plant?

Apologies if this was already covered in another thread; I did a quick skim of the subforum and opened a few of the most promising threads based on their titles and didn't see it addressed.

I have a small concord grape plant that I purchased from a grocery store earlier this year, and my wife planted it in the ground in full sun. It looks like a twig, maybe 14" tall, but the planting must have been successful because now it has popped out a few leaves.

I want it to eventually grow huge and provide me with lots of grapes to eat. I have visions of training it across a trellisworks (which I have yet to build) and even using it to provide shade over my back deck. But right now, like I said, it's just a lil sapling, barely more than a foot tall.

So, 2 questions:

When do I need to build the trellis for it to climb?

Is there a certain distance from the plant that the trellis footer needs to be so it doesn't interfere with the grape's roots?

With my Concords, I didn't need to do any sort of permanent trellis until their 3rd year. That was when they got big enough that they needed real support.
For the first year, I would just let it settle in. Next year is when you really need to figure out what shape you want it to take and start some controlled pruning. I used tomato supports and some basic metal decor panel for support and to direct it for those 2 years.

On our homestead, years ago we had two grapes.  We never trellised them in the 15 years we lived there.

If you like the trellised look, it would be good to not wait 10 years. Unless you want your plant to look like a messy pile of grapevine wreaths. That's what my muscadine looks like.

Is there a certain distance from the plant that the trellis footer needs to be so it doesn't interfere with the grape's roots?

This was not addressed yet.  Short answer outside of where roots are currently growing.  once established it will be like any other stone.  so if you want a post close to a vine a reason to do it now or before planting.   Not that you have to have a post near a vine. with age the trunk vine will be self supporting .   if you have chosen a planting place well then plan your trellis for the shape and shade you want.  You can also direct a vine back to the ground to root where you want to start a new vine for additional coverage.

Grape vines are in the class of plants that are intent on world domination.  That means that if they detect shade from a structure or plant nearby or above they will reach out and fasten a tendril to it and grow over it.  This means you must plan your trellis so that the vines do not jump to something you do not want them to grow on.

Our grape is some variety of seedless white that was started from a cutting.  Then babied with minimal support, pruning off any unwanted shoots until it got to roof height.  Then we made a version of a pergola, training all the new branches over the top until we had full shade in the summer at the western end of the house. It took a couple of years. We do get grapes, but the birds beat us to it unless I'm very quick, even when the bunches were covered with calico bags some smart bird found that beaking off the bunches at the attachment point worked really well, then they could extract grapes as they felt like it.  Grr.  Oh, and I should mention, as with Hans's point above they will grasp onto anything doesn't even have to be close, they seem to grow longer over night.

I read in a post long ago that grapes and mulberries have a symbiotic relationship.  So I planted my grapes under my mulberry and am training them to go up to the lower branches. Then they (the vines) can help themselves to whatever sunlight they can get. Since the grapes have at least a month head start on the mulberry with leafing out!  Just an idea. Since most of my wooden structures, trellises etc have disintegrated.  Trees hopefully keep going long after I’ve gone!  My kiwis are 40 up the birch tree. Not easy to harvest. They gave up on their arbour and just reached out to the next best thing!

Meant to say 40ft up the birch

I have 2 grapes that I planted 12 or so years ago. I had sort of a gazebo structure that was already there and I was trying to create shade as I live in California's hot central valley. They were planted about 4 feet from 2 of the poles. It was built with scrap lumber. It is tall, 9 feet so when the grapes were babies I stretched out an old piece of hog wire between the two poles for something for them to climb on. After a few years they grew up to to top so I was able to take the hog wire down and tied the vines to the 2x4's that were attached crosswise on the top of structure. Then I just let them grow. They created some nice shade and easy access to the fruit when I was ready to harvest. 3 years ago a friend built me 2 sheds on the sides of the gazebo for garden tools, etc. Turned out good even though somewhat unconventional for a grape trellis. Has nice shade on hot afternoons.

I planted 1 Concord grape vine so that it was supported by my cattle panel arch. Worked beautifully. And I made the most delicious grape juice from the abundance of grapes. And this was year 1! Looking forward to this year’s harvest!

Gaurī Rasp wrote:I planted 1 Concord grape vine so that it was supported by my cattle panel arch. Worked beautifully. And I made the most delicious grape juice from the abundance of grapes. And this was year 1! Looking forward to this year’s harvest!

What was the size/state of the grape vine when you planted it? I can't imagine getting grapes in year 1.

Ned Harr wrote:

Gaurī Rasp wrote:I planted 1 Concord grape vine so that it was supported by my cattle panel arch. Worked beautifully. And I made the most delicious grape juice from the abundance of grapes. And this was year 1! Looking forward to this year’s harvest!

What was the size/state of the grape vine when you planted it? I can't imagine getting grapes in year 1.

**Upon reflection it was a second year plant that I transplanted from a different house. I thought it was dead but it sprang to life & was so hardy! Surprised me. I’d never grown grapes before.

As far as I know Concord grapes are a different species than the grapes I know here in Europe (French, German or Italian grapes, mostly for wine production). They seem to be typical American. So I don't know if they have the same growth habits.

I had a German wine grape for some years. It was an old trunk when it came in my garden, and its first year it made many long vines and lots of leaves. It covered a pergola of several square meters. I read a book on pruning and there the advice was to prune it almost totally back in winter. So I did. Next year it grew large and bushy again. And it gave grapes ... which a flock of starlings (birds) picked sooner than I could even think of it.
But then the grape plant got a disease, some kind of fungus. The leaves got dark spots. The new grapes (in the third year) were affected by the fungus too. Instead of ripening they started rotting. Someone who knew more about grapes told me this disease would not go away, so I better remove that grapevine and not plant a new one in the same spot. So I did.

Now I do have a new grape, but I planted it in the allotment garden. It's a different variety, a Dutch table grape. I planted it last year, but until now it looks like it's doing well. It has a pergola to grow in like I had before. This new pergola is made of strong untreated oak wood. I hope it will support my grapes for years to come.

Like any plant, it's best not to mess with the roots more than necessary, so I would get your structure built ASAP.  Grapes will offer as much or as little shade as you want depending on how much you prune them.  I don't know your age or your family situation, but if the structure requires a ladder to harvest the fruit, is that something you're going to want to contend with?  When I was a little girl, my dad built a sort of pergola off the corner of a three board fence that enclosed the property.  It was the coolest "fort" to hang out in.  Friends and I would hang out under the grapes and wile away the summer heat.  If you have children, something like that would be worthy of consideration!  That was my "go-to" for almost a decade of my childhood and I have very fond memories of it.  I suppose that's why I was so eager to get Concord grapes started on the chain link fence surrounding the backyard pool. Those grapes are now about 40 years old and still cranking out fruit every fall!  The smell of them brings me right back to my childhood.

Maybe something just a little higher (6' or so?) where you could string a hammock between the supports or a bench upon which to rest between gardening chores or as a place to set down equipment.  I'm big on stacking functions, and I would rather see something create many possibilities or solutions than just its original purpose.  Maybe there is a view that you want blocked or a place that you wish were just a little shadier?  It sounds like the plant is still quite small and can be moved.  You may wish to dig it out temporarily while construction is happening...I can't tell you how many times I've stepped on the very thing I'm trying to protect while working around it!

Ned Harr wrote:I have visions of training it across a trellisworks (which I have yet to build) and even using it to provide shade over my back deck. But right now, like I said, it's just a lil sapling, barely more than a foot tall.

To aid your future internet searches, it sounds like what you really want is an "arbor," not a "trellis."  Though I see these terms used highly interchangeably.  An arbor, which some also call a "pergola," is a more substantial overhead structure designed to shade the ground beneath.  A trellis is a lighter structure that supports climbing vines vertically, such as up a wall or along a wire.

Ned Harr wrote:When do I need to build the trellis for it to climb?

That depends on the type of structure you build.  If you do use a trellis, you could tie them to or weave them through the structure near to the ground from an early age.  They will naturally continue to grip it and enmesh with it as they grow and climb.

In my case, my arbor has tall posts supporting a growing structure at ceiling level.  It takes a year or so for little grapes to grow vines long enough to tie up the post.  As they grow longer, I wrap them around the post and tie again several times.  Thus the trunk of the adult grape will spiral up the post to the arbor above, at which point the ties will become redundant and can be removed since it is impossible for the vine to fall or even be ripped from the arbor.

Even though it takes a year for the vines to grow long, I would build your support structure as soon as possible.  I built mine first, then planted grapes.  That is because...

Ned Harr wrote:Is there a certain distance from the plant that the trellis footer needs to be so it doesn't interfere with the grape's roots?

For sure.  Any disturbance to existing roots is obviously undesirable, though the grape would likely survive.  In theory you could build your support many feet away to minimize disturbance, but your vine would then travel along the ground considerably before growing up the support.  Why would you want that?

It would seem best to build your support near to the grapes as quickly as possible before the roots grow out to be much disturbed.  Once your foundation is in the ground, the roots will grow around it as they would any other obstruction.

For illustrative purposes, here is my arbor, which provides shade over an otherwise uncovered patio and extends the roofline out in front of a series of south-facing bay windows.  It was once covered with grapes and muscadines and was both effective and pleasing to the eye.  Over the years they have died or I cut them out, and this Spring I planted all new replacements.

An arbor could be made with all wood, but I choose to make mine out of wire.  Note the turnbuckles so that I can adjust the tension of the wires over time to compensate for stretching or sagging under the weight of the vines.

Update:

I pushed a tall thin stake into the ground near my grape plant, since it is now big enough that it is starting to "flop". This hopefully will give it something it can grab that will train it upward.

That is the temporary fix. The long-term fix, which I will start on probably by the end of summer, is a proper arbor made out of 4x4s. To get around the root interference problem, I have decided to use the bucket-o-concrete method, so the vertical members will sit on top of the ground in buckets (actually I will use large plastic flower pots) rather than buried into it with below-grade footers.

I decided this after talking to my neighbor, who installed a series of such posts around his patio from which to string decorative outdoor lights. He used special concrete blocks that are designed to receive a 4x4, but reasoned buckets of concrete would have been easier, cheaper, and more effective.

I think this was the thread in which I promised to show a photo of my grape vine climbing a pergola. Finally I thought of making that photo. Here it is:

BTW the pergola is made of oak (local wood from a local wood mill). The parts that are in the ground are burned first. My son did this for me.

Now something is eating the leaves of my grape plant. Not sure what to do about that...

Ned Harr wrote:Now something is eating the leaves of my grape plant. Not sure what to do about that...

Is it really bad, or only some holes in leaves?
In the last case: don't worry.