Kinda just lost on a realistic career path in sustainability for the short, medium and long term

All I know is I want to work with my hands, outdoors and not being destructive to the environment and it just feels like I have to sacrifice some if not all of those desires if I don't want to be broke.

I am currently in a community college, just kinda trying to figure myself out at this point as I am aiming for a Agroecology degree. Which was the closest thing to Permaculture I could find as a degree, but there doesn't seem to be many career opportunities (unless I already had land which I don't). Maybe I need to look more or be more creative, but it just feels like a lot of these sustainability careers assume you have upfront capital or assets for you to start a business.

Which brings me here, I would really appreciate guidance on not just the end point, but how can I transition from here to there. Maybe give suggestions on degrees I can get that could help me actually generate money so I can achieve my broader dreams like having a farm or live in a intentional community.

I am a little all over the place, but hopefully this is enough to get a sense of where I am at. My one hope is I see there is a big push for sustainability, so maybe there will be more opportunities in the future.

Welcome to Permies!!
I'd suggest not looking at "What degree can I get?" but "What can I get paid to do, and what path will get me there?" There are not a lot of degreed people making money in this niche, there ARE a lot of people who learn something that they can make money off of.

You might look at Zach Weiss's Water classes, that kind of work can pay well anywhere. Or people who find a niche in a location they like that works for that area.

But I think looking for "a degree" might not be the bast path. That said I know people here who have soil science and entomology degrees, you might look at those if you think a degree is the best path for you.

Follow the path that makes you HAPPY and find a way to make money off your happiness :D

Pearl Sutton wrote:Welcome to Permies!!
I'd suggest not looking at "What degree can I get?" but "What can I get paid to do, and what path will get me there?" There are not a lot of degreed people making money in this niche, there ARE a lot of people who learn something that they can make money off of.

You might look at Zach Weiss's Water classes, that kind of work can pay well anywhere. Or people who find a niche in a location they like that works for that area.

But I think looking for "a degree" might not be the bast path. That said I know people here who have soil science and entomology degrees, you might look at those if you think a degree is the best path for you.

Follow the path that makes you HAPPY and find a way to make money off your happiness

Thank you for the reply! Interesting thing to note that there isn't many degree focused people in this path. I checked out Zach Weiss's Water Classes and to be honest that is exactly the kind of work I would like to do, I guess to me I see that as a long term goal. At least with my current imagination I don't know how I can get from a city living low paid worker, to getting not just the knowledge, but the experience on real property, equipment and workers under me to do this type of job for what I assume is a client.

Though I did like how you said "What can I get paid to do, and what path will get me there?". I guess I am stumped on how to get the experience (without the land) for people to even want to pay me? I do live in California, so maybe I can find someone to apprentice under or something.

Welcome to permies! Permaculture is something a lot of us do to create some distance from the economy, not to get further into it. So we may not have great ideas how to use it to print money as it's the opposite direction most of us are going. We reduce expenses instead of increasing incomes.

It's a great way to cut your expenses so you can be "broke" and still quite comfortable.  As a result, we don't pay a lot for services. We don't need to. So there aren't a lot of jobs in providing permaculture services because they are designed to not be needed.

Of course that also means: if you live a permaculture life, you can have a permaculture job even if it doesn't pay well.

If you want a good paying permaculture job, you're going to be in ecology somewhere. State ecology departments, state parks, botanical gardens, organic farm services. That kind of thing would be where I would start.  Could probably also consider the construction side. Most permaculture homes are still required by law or design to have a septic system and well. So there's natural home design services, natural building construction management, and well drilling/septic digging.

Forestry management would be a natural connection.

Personally my approach was to find an unrelated career I could do remotely, and then marry that to a permaculture lifestyle.  Don't make the mistake of thinking your career has to be part of a complete life package up front. It's fine to start with a lifestyle you want in one hand, a job you can enjoy in the other, and then find ways to merge them over the decades.

As far as gaining skills...have you looked into the Bootcamp program on this site? Will probably train you up really fast, but then you need the degree to convince people you know what you're doing...or a big portfolio of finished projects to show.

Nova Stone wrote:I checked out Zach Weiss's Water Classes and to be honest that is exactly the kind of work I would like to do, I guess to me I see that as a long term goal. At least with my current imagination I don't know how I can get from a city living low paid worker, to getting not just the knowledge, but the experience on real property, equipment and workers under me to do this type of job for what I assume is a client.  

If you take one of Zach's classes, there may be people who have been through it before who watch for people to hire.  I'm not sure how you can find out if that happens, but it might be worth looking into.

I would suggest you explore short term options like training for a trade - electricians and plumbers earn a *lot* of money. If you're able to find a way to live reasonably cheaply (no lattes and simple home cooking can save a bundle) and stash every bit of money you can so that you can afford to buy land, you might end up getting where you want to be faster.

There are a few people who started their permaculture gardens by finding elderly people with back yards that were happy to have a little help as a trade for access to garden space.

Nova,

Welcome to Permies! You're in the right place.

Have you read Paul's SKIP book? That's the first question I would ask you.

You're at a community college. I don't know anything about agroecology, but I do know that you shouldn't spend money on a degree that isn't going to land you a job. Because then you don't have a job and you owe a lot of money...for something that was supposed to land you a job. I'm not saying quit community college. I'm saying acquire some skills that are going to put some coin in your pocket no matter how much sheepskin winds up adorning your wall (how many degrees you get, if you haven't heard that expression).

Learning skills that allow you to be useful, and make coin, is always a good thing. I know people who know how to do a whole bunch of stuff and just put it out on FB marketplace and they stay busy enough and have coins jangling in their pockets.

There's nothing holding you back from pursuing a degree, but there's nobody saying you can't pursue SKIP at the same time.

Here are two things I know, though. Doing beats studying. And it seems that a lot of people who get degrees in agroecology wind up staying in college teaching...agroecology, never having DONE much agroecology. Hands on. In the dirt. Some of them get picked up by non-profits. The rest go into farming. With college debt. With less value than they would have gained by working the land, with their hands, during the time they were in college studying agroecology.

Jim

Nova Stone wrote:All I know is I want to work with my hands, outdoors and not being destructive to the environment and it just feels like I have to sacrifice some if not all of those desires if I don't want to be broke.

I am currently in a community college, just kinda trying to figure myself out at this point as I am aiming for a Agroecology degree. Which was the closest thing to Permaculture I could find as a degree, but there doesn't seem to be many career opportunities (unless I already had land which I don't). Maybe I need to look more or be more creative, but it just feels like a lot of these sustainability careers assume you have upfront capital or assets for you to start a business.

Which brings me here, I would really appreciate guidance on not just the end point, but how can I transition from here to there. Maybe give suggestions on degrees I can get that could help me actually generate money so I can achieve my broader dreams like having a farm or live in a intentional community.

I am a little all over the place, but hopefully this is enough to get a sense of where I am at. My one hope is I see there is a big push for sustainability, so maybe there will be more opportunities in the future.

Depending on your situation it might be possible to cut costs by living with your family, going slow, etc. It seems to me the sorts of things that worked for young people in the recent past may be more difficult than they were, and that—maybe due to these sorts of attitudes young people are being scammed out of our lives and futures riding on these older attitudes that are no longer quite applicable.

I can’t tell you how to go forward, only be creative, be cautious, have patience, be kind to yourself (and others), and don’t deny or forget the things you know deep in your heart to be true.

True words of wisdom.

Jim

M Ljin wrote:Depending on your situation it might be possible to cut costs by living with your family, going slow, etc. It seems to me the sorts of things that worked for young people in the recent past may be more difficult than they were, and that—maybe due to these sorts of attitudes young people are being scammed out of our lives and futures riding on these older attitudes that are no longer quite applicable.

I can’t tell you how to go forward, only be creative, be cautious, have patience, be kind to yourself (and others), and don’t deny or forget the things you know deep in your heart to be true.

Why are you after a degree? This is only a costly exercise. Try to get a job straight away in something that sparks your interest. If you don't want to work straight away, you could do some woofing instead. You can learn so much by simply watching YouTube, reading here or asking any AI I don't really know why you would sit in a school. The real stuff you learn while working with people who have lots of experience. You won't get their knowledge at school in a course (sometimes yes, but mostly not). Simply check which farm you woudl like to work maybe it's Goetsch? Or maybe with Sepp Holzers son?

If I wanted to work I would get a job working for a National Park, National Forest, or a State Park.

I have been there and done that.

Agroecology jobs sound like Project Managers for Agriculture, Research or maybe working with the United Nations in sustainable agricultural practices and ecological resilience.

Many of us ended up with jobs that had nothing to do with our college degree.

I had a thought... If you like the idea of something like Zach Weiss's water stuff, and want papers that say you know how to do things, what about finding out how to learn equipment like backhoes etc ?  I don't know if certification helps, everyone I know just gets on it and starts dinking with it, but there has to be professional classes somewhere.

I have to agree- learn skills. Trades, how to do things. Many employment agencies have information about trade schools and often the trade unions have apprenticeship and training programs for people under a certain age (I seriously looked at a bricklayer apprenticeship when I was in my 20s and sometimes wonder what life would have been like....).
Agroecology has components that include plumbing, electricity, heavy equipment use, etc. I think the more you know how to do, the more options you have.

Where abouts do you live? Where one place might not have opportunities, another may.

Where I live, sustainable forestry is a growing career path that a few folks that I know of are involved in.

I enjoyed my time in community college as it allowed me to dip my toes in a variety of subjects before I made a decision to move forward with a particular pathway (or to not do college at all).

I ended up in a career field that was not related to my degree but my degree helped me get my foot into the door. This career allows me to fund my permaculture projects and lead a stable life. Sometimes it is the unexpected path that you end up taking but all the steps it took you to get there matter.

Have you consider becoming a Boot at Wheaton Labs and learn permaculture while having fun:

https://permies.com/wiki/bootcamp

You’re where I was in 1982.  I chose forestry/soil science because I felt it gave me the broadest possible exposure to what I needed for a job working to…well…save the world, or to be self sufficient once saving the world fell out of fashion.  College is wonderful and rewarding but it seems to have become more geared to fleecing people. Don’t get too far in debit.  Everyone wants highly educated/skilled workers; they just aren’t particularly interested in paying them.

Good that you’re asking for advice.  I was too shy, and in conservative Indiana at a time when Reagan was flying high I was just trying to not draw attention.  I grew strawberries for almost 20 years but didn’t advertise that they were organic.

Consider that whatever you buy will cost you an extra 30 percent after you pay all the tax on your income.  Doing gig jobs will provide income but not rob all the time you need to save money by doing things for yourself.

Volunteering for organizations like Habitat for Humanity will give you hands on homebuilding experience. Relief work with All Hands and Hearts is fun and rewarding and they will provide food and housing…and maybe hire you if you stay awhile.  Building your own house is good experience.  And an energy efficient house using salvaged and locally sourced materials is the best way to help the environment.  The first house I built was designed to add on to.  I wanted something totally finished that could be expanded as time and money became available.  Living in and trying to work on a half-finished house is not fun.  Build a small house but plan it so you can add space later on.

SAM.gov is the official website where the US government solicits bids for government contracts.  Search around to find the jobs using your skill set.  DO NOT BE INTIMIDATED.  They will give bids to anyone who demonstrates a reasonable ability to complete the work.  I worked for the US Forest Service as a contractor for the last 14 years.  There are jobs large and small.  The alternative is to work for an environmental service company doing the EXACT work for a fraction of the pay.  (to compare, I made 60-100K for 6-8 months work vs. around 35K plus benefits working full time with an environmental contractor)These companies are not particularly altruistic; they are businessmen who make their money off other people’s labor.  As a lone wolf contractor I could always underbid them. Federal agencies will often provide a newbie with a lot of help when first navigating the system.

The 80-90s, was a good time for art shows.  Not quite what it was but there are still creative people out there finding things they can make and sell or do to demonstrate or entertain people.  As a woodworker I was able to weave ecology into my woodworking demonstration.  Often fair organizers will pay you for demoing.  I did this for 30 years.
 
If you don’t snare one of those scarce but good paying full time ecology jobs, working on the land necessitates a wide range of skills.  It’s satisfying for an ADD person like me, and being a jack of all trades is a gas.  And who knows, maybe being a steward of the earth will catch on yet.  I love you young people.  You give me hope.

Hi Nova,

Nice post. Nice time of life. It is so great that you are thinking this way and have discovered this passion path. It took me 2 careers and 40 years to get there!

Look into Quivira Coalition. https://quiviracoalition.org/newagrarian/
They are a wonderful organization, bringing together all sorts of folks with all sorts of backgrounds who care about the land, and helping them to be on the same page and learn from each other.

For one thing, their "New Agrarian Program" is designed specifically to connect young landless folk with established landed folk for apprenticeship and mentorship.

Best wishes to you, and know this: although young adulthood has so many stressors and it can feel overwhelming to try to set your life path with sometimes too many options and no options all at once, and competing goals and concerns... it will still end up being a time that you will look back at fondly. It is an amazing time, where your primary goal is getting to know yourself. Also, you don't need to put too much pressure on the immediate decisions. Many people (I would maybe even argue most interesting people) make big direction changes at various times of their lives. Finding a door to open never requires closing all the other ones forever.

I guess I'm already old and jaded, at the ripe age of 35, but as others have alluded to you're probably barking up the wrong tree if you want to be a well-paid cog in the machine *and* contribute to finding better solutions for our species to survive the crises we've created for ourselves. If you're lucky, you can do one first and then the other, i.e. save up money in the highest-paid career that you won't hate yourself for being a part of, and then get some cheap land somewhere and try to make things work. I've known many people who got degrees in something that sounded great like "environmental engineering," and then when they actually got hired they found out that their job was essentially to help their employer just barely follow the letter of the law, while continuing to destroy the environment for the sake of profit.

I only managed to get off the conveyor belt right after my undergraduate degree, which I chose to be both the most intellectually challenging + financially promising but knew I didn't want to pursue as a career.  I then made a 'vow of poverty', which has been my rock bottom solid foundation subsistence strategy, & pursued "designing Man's interaction with Nature".  

There wasn't any discernable profession or pathway, so I started researching from great books in libraries + contacting interesting people even running down projects & places as I could.  Eventually I found a direction & apprenticeship, then an overseas development consultancy, then graduate school/ research/ teaching, then bailed out back to the high desert.  

At various forks I had to remake the choice between my principles, values, objectives & earning good money or doing what others wanted for me.  The best seed I planted was the first, guerilla style, for growing & cultivating plants, gardens, orchards, forests, which I've stubbornly progressed through by any means at hand, as mostly those have not been of real or sustained interest to others, especially to point of spending & investing.  

I have been very fortunate & lucky to have reached the cusp of making good & whole an ecological life, despite harrowing unknowns & bitter compromises.  I have no regrets.  Hang tough & stay your course.

I can provide a practical idea from a recent learning experience here in So CO.  For the past year, I've been volunteering in a local xeriscape garden with over 400 specimens.  It's impressive in many ways. But the irrigation system is a real mess, with lines broken and sticking out in so many places, and when a system test is performed during normal working hours, huge geysers are evident where serious leaks or line breaks inevitably occurred due to pocket gopher or human activity.  Also, the gardeners never adopted sensible organic mulching practices.  It's all topped off with pea gravel on the surface, and why?  So that the surface level irrigation can work.  So the whole design of the materials used here is driven by the use of a kluge of multiple large and small irrigation lines, to allow penetration from surface level "emitters"

A far better, cheap, and almost free of cost approach would be a simpler system of "watering tubes" which are 1" diameter PVC pipe sections, about a foot long, installed to about 4" depth.  Get the water into the root zone.  That, plus a few inches of tree waste mulch on the surface.  It's so simple and results in big cost savings.  This is used in a few locations around town, but otherwise is unknown.

So many low tech but highly efficient water conservation solutions exist.  It is an area ripe for discovery and implemenation.