capitalism, gift economy and prices that are too damn high!

Yes they do, in exactly the way you describe, I was simply pointing out the irony of "my time is worth treasures while your time is worth cents" thinking, and how we end up treating eachother due to this being the social norm......

My belief is that my neighbor is not there only for me to take advantage of, and I would prefer if he were not looking for a way to get one over on me....

The far simpler thinking of "our time is worth treasures" OR "our time is worth cents" would result in more respect for our fellows and ourselves than the current system of doing bad things to people to get more for your time.....

Most of all I see unmeasurable humor in the fact that we think we deserve to be treated in the polar opposite way than we are treating the person on the other end of a transaction relationship.....

This is also the reason most products are cheap and faulty, the expectation of a buyer who will not pay.....

A comment on my WDG ks video at youtube:

If kickstarter paid for this project to be created, why not offer the content for free? Is the goal to help others create substainable living places to live, or generate money for ones self? Workshops were paid to attend? Double dip I see.

First, I think you need to go check out kickstarter.   Kickstarter is not some generous entity that just pours money on all-the-things. People paid money to see the project completed and then get a copy.   In fact, those people paid money long before the product was complete.   Is it really fair to have them pay for it and others don't pay for it?

As to your "double dip":  I was never paid to teach that workshop.  So I guess you feel the need to make your point using false accusations?  That seems pretty wicked.  Wicked, nasty, ugly, mean, evil ... you, sir, are a festering piece of shit taking douchebaggery to new extremes.  Further, when I was there, I cooperated with the video people, but I was told that they were doing their own video project.

I think that if I choose to look past the nasty wickedness you are writing, and get on to where you are wanting to rudely butt your nose into my personal finances.  The kickstarter paid for the product to exist.  I could choose to make it free, but I don't.  First, I wish to respect my kickstarter supporters.  Second, I need that money to try to get other projects on video.  I see that in your post there is no concern for all the money that was burned for failed projects?    Or comments about how you want to chip in to cover these losses.  Yet lots and lots of people were paid for those, and that money was spent and never resulted in video projects that brought in anything.  And third:  a lot of people will never hear about this stuff or permaculture if we don't push things into commercial channels.   So, to reach those people, we have to come up with a commercial product.

And then there is the most important thing:   if you want this sort of content to be available for free, set up a workshop, arrange the video, editors, etc (for pay or other means) pay all the people that insist on being paid and then push it out there the way you think is best.   Leave me out of it.

Next up:  did you notice several DVDs worth of content that I have put up, for free, on youtube?  How about the free presentation I gave while I was teaching the workshop:



I did not get paid for that either.   But I did pay people to help me put the presentation together.

So what I see is that Jocelyn and I took a week off from my rather packed life and donated our time to help a lot of people with a lot of things.  Yet you don't say anything about that.    I think I spend massive tracts of my life giving stuff away for free.  And it seems millions of people like that stuff.   You forgot to thank me for that.  The funds that come in from what little income I have goes right out to others to make it so millions more can get stuff for free.   My taxable income is something like $3000 per year.  What is your taxable income mr. nosey?




Here is what I really see in your message:  I made something you want.  You don't want to pay for it.  You want me to give it to you for free, for no reason other than you want it.  So you whine and say nasty things in the hopes that somehow you will get it for free.  Or, you are just a fucking troll, writing shit in the hopes of getting a response and you can get the traction to say more nasty shit.  

So here is my question to you:   rather than living the life of a troll, trying to shame people into some sort of fucked up slavery within your twisted world, why don't you do something useful with your life?  

I have removed your tripe from my youtube video.  Thanks youtube for giving me a delete button.



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Ignoring the douchebag for a moment, writing my ranty response did expose something interesting that is another angle of this thread.   The gift economy.  

I gave a lot of stuff away.  Including a mountain of advice to diego.   He was the powerhouse behind making that convergence happen.   And as the event itself had "issues" - I advised him on how to make an event that he would run.  Rather than a non-profit with a group of people that ultimately mess it all up, a for-shitty-profit venture.  He could charge a lot more money and bring in a lot bigger names than me.   He went right to work.   A year later, PV1 happened.  One of the greatest permaculture events to ever happen.  

Through a series of nutty events, I received the footage from the workshop.  

I gave a bunch of stuff without thinking of getting stuff back.   I got a lot of stuff back.  Probably not "THE" gift economy.   But it sorta is.

I wonder ....   does the gift economy only exist within capitalism?  It seems that people wish to replace capitalism with gift economy.  But if there is no capitalism, it would seem that there is no longer such a thing as a gift.  

??

paul wheaton wrote:I wonder ....   does the gift economy only exist within capitalism?  It seems that people wish to replace capitalism with gift economy.  But if there is no capitalism, it would seem that there is no longer such a thing as a gift.  

??

Potlatch was practiced before capitalism existed in n. America, so technically the answer is yes. There are probably many other forms of gift economies that existed before, during and outside capitalism.

I think maybe you’re asking a deeper question: can people give things without expecting something in return?  But since having any normal and healthy relationship requires reciprocity, i think expecting or desiring something in return is not in and of itself unhealthy. It’s how one manages that desire.
William

William James wrote:I think maybe you’re asking a deeper question: can people give things without expecting something in return?  

I think the world is loaded with stuff given without expecting something in return.

Here is something I gave away without expecting something in return.  I made a web page in an effort to share information on something that was under documented on the internet.  

At the time, most of the content on the internet was exactly that:  stuff that was given away without expectation of getting anything in return.  

What about the permies.com staff?  They give their time with no expectation of something in return.

I know that there have been many times that a stranger has done something kind for me without expecting something in return.

So I think there is already a lot of that.

In all of these cases, we can use the word "gift".  And my point is that if reciprocity disappeared entirely, would the word "gift" also disappear?

I believe David Graeber ('Debt: the First 5000 Years) said it is clear from anthropology, that in 'primitive' societies, goods and services were 'allotted' using a system of 'mutual obligation'.  It was understood that if Harry needed shoes, the shoemaker would give him a pair, with the common understanding that when the shoemaker needed cheese, Harry would fill the needed. This 'obligation' was understood by all, as the price of social security, so needs were typically smoothly met.   When there was something that appeared to be 'money', it was only used ceremonially.  It would seem that when actual coinage came along, debt also arrived, as the societal obligation could be measured, quantified, traded, etc.  
This
(BTW, David Graebder died of so-far unknown causes in the fall of 2019... also Kary Mullis [inventor of the PCR test] also died, fortuitiously?, at the same time.)

When people volunteer, most of the time what they “get in return” is intangible, like a sense of having helped, or having “done something” for a cause or the personal relationships that stem from the “work”. The intangibles are endless.

As for the other question, that of reciprocity ending, i think we would be in a “last person on earth” scenario, and still there would be “gifts” from the plants and animals and rocks and all the other beings we share space with and have reciprocal relationships with.

It reminds me of a fun film called Nothing (2003).
William

Part of the idea is philosophically, where does your self begin and where does society begin? Modern physics and biology explain to us that we aren't just our bodies, and we can't really separate ourselves from others in the tidy way that Libertarians think we can. The atoms in our bodies are made up mostly of space, and they are still moving.  You can't know exactly where the electron is and know its speed at the same time.   Many people contribute because they think it's a good thing to do, without understanding precisely if anything is coming back to them.  Are they contributing to an object known as their body? We are all moving in concert with one another.  The story or dance that we create is our gift to society. Is it a gift or is it art? Perhaps both.  We could deny that it is art, but then it's just bad art.
John S
PDX OR

Just discovered this thread, reminding me I have a few code libraries that need to be thrown up on github because I don't need it or use it and somebody else might. Why should I horde things that others can be using? I have found copyright and intellectual property rights to be more of a burden than useful, especially in patents which unless you have the $$$ to enforce will just be undermined by China.

With the internet making it easier for people to barter and do work trades I think we will see more of a gift economy as long as monopolies, governments, banks don't centralize everything first. Many companies are finding "open source" and "direct to consumer" models are more profitable.

Is the fourth sector "for benefit corporation" the gift economy? Wonder why it has not been accepted by the "capitalist" US as a formal option.

Re: 'avoiding the party politics', I'd like to share something I just learned - the Grange Motto.  
"In essentials, unity;
in non-essentials, freedom;
in all things, charity."

I wish we could all drop our 'colors' (leave the 'divide and conquer' aggressive team 'games' that we are sucked into - deliberately?), find that which we share (somewhere in the 'middle' ?), and work together to promote the common good.  BTW, I think that 'working together' is the easiest, best way to promote community.... meetings, not so much : )  Plus, many hands make light work.

I think that if we start out by trying to do the best we can in life, and thinking about what we could do differently rather than what some other person (such as Paul, some politician, our least favorite CEO, our parents and grandparents, children, or the rest), then we will be a lot wiser and happier for it.

Everyone does what they do for a reason and that reason generally makes sense to them. If you would like to know something about permaculture and don’t want to pay for it, then use the resources that you have available, and also go out and ask Gaia what to do. Gaia often has the answers better than anyone can teach you.

I think gift economy isn’t a thing we do, it is a relationship we have with each other and with the world, and it is formed out of ties of gratitude and generosity to each other. The whole essential thing about it is that it is natural and by choice. If someone doesn’t want anyone to pick their peaches, that is their choice; it is deplorable behavior to go up to them and demand that they let you pick their peaches (unless you suspect they aren’t going to eat them, which is deplorable in itself. But there’s no need to be so demanding.) It seems like most of the people around here would not go around demanding peaches; if they wanted some peaches they would think about planting some new peaches. If you are very hungry you would steal or ask very politely, because being polite and sincere about your needs makes you more convincing.
Maybe that idea about planting peaches would come up in conversation. And then someone would have a peach tree and offer that they take some of the peaches. “Oh—not if you are going to use them!”—“No, too many peaches for me, you take some!” And the person would take some and feel indebted to Prunus persica, and the desire to plant their own would grow even stronger.

Another example. I do not grow very good tomatoes or peppers (yes, okay, some tomatoes but no peppers ever!) and I have a friend who is a much neater gardener than I who always has tomatoes and many cultivated crops, and brings them over now and then. But there are not as many parsnips around there, or dame’s rocket, both of which she likes. So every time I see her I try to bring a few parsnips and some dame’s rocket when in season, which is appreciated. Last year when we had a good squash harvest I would give her a squash every week, and she would give me back some seeds. It helped get rid of the squash before they started getting mouldy around spring time. (This year we had only a handful of squash.) Sometimes I give more than I recieve or recieve more than I give and either way is fine.

I don’t ever ask for her chard or spinach because I have plenty of broad leafed dock in the yard which I like better, and lots of other wild vegetables. Some people like chard, others like myself, like riparian delicacies such as dock and watercress. If I asked for as much dock as she has in the garden I would not be denied it. Nor if I asked my neighbor to uproot his nut sedge for making horchata!

How lovely the taste of the wild path-docken,
The sweetness of spring-fruit, the savor as cake
Which doth spring up unasked for, in loveliness rise,
‘Twixt the honeysuckle and bindweed, ‘twixt ferns and Joe-pye!

Ann Torrence wrote:A great explanation of capitalism was in one of my college textbooks, yes still in print and a comic book at that:

Marx for Beginners

----------

We started a biotech business because of a failure in the gift economy.

For his science,  makes molecular markers in his lab. Because part of his work is federally funded, he is required by law to make them available to others in his field (he can't squash others' science by not sharing technology). He is not required to give them away; the university can also license his ideas and products to be sold through the free market. Back in 1995, he got a phone call from a colleague and friend:

I became aware of this system when I watched the film "The internet's own boy"...     I then became aware of all of the research that has been done with our tax dollars that you have to pay a fee to get...   Research that was created with our tax dollars.....

I was very impressed with what Aaron did in trying to liberate this information, but not impressed what the FBI did to Aaron.        There are information gatekeepers......    there seems to always be a toll....  even if you already paid for it to exist.

I never worry about capitalism, gift economy and prices that are too damn high!

As long as there is food to put on the table and a bed to sleep in I am fine.

And the permies forum and my TV shows ...

Gift economy.

The Medicaid/Public Aid office in my community was closed many years ago due to the cost of the office.  The state’s solution was that the office in a town 25 miles away could be used.  To add to this, one of the employees was from my community so she now had to drive 50 miles a day. And, of course, many of the people needing the services did not have transportation.

So, my organization was located across the street from the closed offices.  I volunteered the use of an office to solve the problem.  No charge.  It appears that the no charge thing was a red flag for the state. It became a nightmare to work out with the state and took a couple of months.

No charge for the office?  Office furniture? Telephone? Heat? Air conditioner? Parking? Insurance? Taxes?   It took a while, but they finally realized what no charge meant.  

Sometimes a Gift might cost more than the face value.

Probably only a CPA can figure this out.