washing dishes by hand vs. dishwasher: water, expense and time

Dishwashers do require electricity to function. Moving water whether from municipal infrastructure or a private well, (unless you have and rely on a hand pump... requires electricity. Also to be considered is the actual cost of designing, manufacturing and shipping, globally, each washer and all its myriad components, not to mention the impact of each washer after it inevitably bites the dust.

Do you mean to say dishes can be cleaned and reused? This will save me a fortune. I have been throwing them out the window like Lisa on Green Acres. Actually I have a broken dishwasher I use for storage and a point of use water heater. If I ever have more than 10 items to wash it is unusual. I stack plates, bowls then silverware. I run the tap on low for a few minutes while I scrub. Maybe 4 gallons tops. The grey water feeds the trees.

I have very little against dishwashers, but I seldom use mine.
I can wash dishes almost as fast as I can load the dishwasher. So I do them by hand. Also I enjoy putting my hands in hot water. If someone else is clearing, I can keep up, and it's enjoyable time together for me.
I hate the feel of dishes and glasses that have been through the dishwasher, but occasionally, as after a giant meal or a project, I'm willing to use it.
The counter is too high, so sometimes I use the dishwasher because I'm tired of soapy water running down my arms.
My husband prefers the machine but is willing to do them by hand because he cares that I hate that squeaky feeling. But if he's feeling overwhelmed I'm willing to put on more hand cream and tolerate some squeaky dishes.
The pots and bowls and utensils don't seem to bother me. So if there's been a big project or an occasional big meal, in they go.
I also prefer putting away the dishes from the racks on the wall to having to bend over.
The two of us do have plenty of dishes, because sometimes at holidays we are serving twelve to twentyfour people. So even if we let them accumulate in the dishwasher for a few days, we don't run out of dishes and glasses. But I need my pots usable, it drives me nuts when they sit around dirty.
The problem of having undone dirty dishes is being slowly solved by my refusing to cook unless the kitchen was cleaned since the previous dinner. It's not whether they get done at all, it's whether they get done in time for the next task.

@r ranson - One of the reasons I tend to use metric...not just to tick off our neighbours (yes with a u) to the south, it is unambiguous - Imperial vs. US vs. survey and assorted other measurements

As with most things, I think the answer is "it depends".  I've used this phrase in the financial services industry before coming to permaculture and finding it used frequently here as well.  It depends on context, and this thread contains a lot of that.  There are many physical and personal reasons for choosing one method over the other, not the least of which include source of water and electricity and method of heating water.  I enjoy that we have such a diversity of contexts here from apartment dwellers to suburban dwellers to rural dwellers to off-grid dwellers.  Well versus municipal supply, sewer versus septic versus gray water systems, philosophy, and all manner of other factors come into play.  I don't think I've previously heard of a dishwasher saving a marriage, but that has to be worth something.

Frankly, we use both.  The dishwasher was incredibly valuable to us when we had a family of five here at the house, especially with teenagers around.  When we had three teens at home with their various activities, we were sometimes running out the house as soon as a meal was done, so it was valuable to be able to know the dishwasher would take care of it.  I think we generally do a good job of running it only when full, and now that there are just three of us here, it probably runs 2-3 times per week.  How one eats is also a factor.  We've generally been three meals a day, and even for those of us eating away from home (at work or school), we would often pack a lunch.  Where microwaves were available, it would often be a container of leftovers (and those containers can generally go into the dishwasher on getting home).  

After getting through this thread thanks to the Dailyish, I measured our sink.  We had remodelled our kitchen many years ago.  Owing to design limitations, a double sink didn't really fit in the space available.  So we have a single that measures roughly (18"x16"x7.5" deep - really it is deeper than that, but how full of water would you really want it) - that works out to a bit over 35 litres of volume.  

After visiting Paul's kitchen in September, and seeing signs all over regarding water use, I've reconsidered somewhat about how I use water.  I wouldn't say prior to our SEPP time that I was an egregious wasteful water person, but after the trip, I've been more conscious of water use and become more thoughtful about it.  One consideration is that over time, machines have generally gotten more efficient.  Sadly, they've probably also got shorter lifespans designed into them.  That said, we do tend to purchase appliances in the mid to upper range of things in the hope that we will get better value in terms of operating costs, warranty, longevity, and/or functionality.  While specifications can help, and one could measure electrical use, and do all the math, there are often intangibles that come into play as well.  As someone suggested earlier, some of the "waste heat" from the dishwasher dumped into the kitchen can reduce general heating needs.  

In our jurisdiction, the last time I checked, electricity is about 9 cents / kW-hr (if we want to convert to US currency, that would presently be about 6.3 cents US).  Of course, that is before taxes.  Also of note (to some at least), about 99.5% of our electricity is generated without carbon emissions (hydro and wind).  About half of the thermal generation comes from biomass.  So, our electrical use effectively is emission free.  I'm unsure how important that is, but that's a whole other discussion.  Our water utility costs have historically worked out to be around $100/month ($70 USD).  That's after all the taxes and assorted other sundries thrown in.  Not having two teenage boys involved in sports around has probably done more to curb water use (and water heating) than how we wash our dishes.

I think I'm bouncing around somewhat...I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes in our context and if it came down to it, we are in a position to be able to afford both the devices and the operating costs surrounding them.

My present method of washing dishes is to add a bit of soap to the sink and turn the faucet to a hot trickle of water (typically a small stream, but by the time it reaches the sink bottom it's separated if that makes sense).  I use the stream to rinse while also filling the sink.  I generally stop when the dishes are done or the drying rack is full.  This is typically probably 10-15 minutes and it is rare that the sink is half full when done (so call it 18 l - about 4 Imperial gallons or 4.5 of the small gallons).  The variation mainly comes from what I'm washing - size / bulkiness / dirty level / stickiness / greasiness / burnt on / etc.  My back starts to complain if I've been standing there for more than 15 minutes (roughly).  It may not be the most efficient method from any measurement, but I will admit I feel better about being more conscious of water use.  

Yes, the water gets cycled - we are neither creating nor destroying it.  From one of my PDC instructors, about 30% (typically) of a municipality's energy use is for pumping water.  An interesting tidbit from the same instructor is that as more low-flow toilets come online, many sewer systems are having increased difficulty as there isn't enough water to keep the sludge moving through the system (unintended consequences rear their ugly head again).  While the water gets cycled, for many of us in municipal systems, there's stuff added to the water that isn't always easy to separate from the water down the road (fluoride being one).  If I can reduce my use (I'd started typing minimize, but reduce is a better word to describe me), then that conceivably reduces any impact from those factors.  The less municipal water I use, the less of our financial resources are devoted to paying for that service as well.

One related thing we have done is purchase an anti-fatigue mat.  This is on the floor in the kitchen and it covers the sink area and our primary food prep spot.  This has made a difference to both She Who Must Be Obeyed and I when we need to spend time standing in the kitchen.  It is probably some level of plastic, but it is easier to clean than a rug would be.  Even with that, there are days when we spend enough time in the kitchen that our bodies aren't happy about it.

Rambling done....

Derek Thille wrote:anti-fatigue mat.

We also are a hand-washing household and we're not young anymore. We've had a special mat in the past but now I save them for my husband's work (they're not cheap here), for home I crochet pretty thick throw rugs specifically for this spot and they tend to work just as well (using tshirts or jeans cut into strips, rag yarn, or whatever else I have around that's heavy enough to be nice and thick). I think they make the chore a lot more tolerable.

We moved into a home with a 20 year old dishwasher.  I've never really used one and always done my dishes by hand, using the dishwasher for extra storage if one was there.  I ran this old dishwasher once shortly after moving in, just to see how it worked.  It took over two hours to cycle, was noisy, and we had a small bit of dripping in the basement under it afterwards.  So I was back to handwashing.  I don't love doing it, but it's part of the work of living so it gets done.  My lower back complains if I wash and dry all at once after a large meal, so I wash and let the stuff air dry in the rack, then come back later to wipe any hard water droplet stains off the silverware and put it all away.  (Our two always-ravenous dogs pre-wash when needed.  Yes, I've joked that sometimes they get the dishes looking so clean I could just put them back in the cupboard.  And no, I've never actually done that.  I know where their tongues have been.)  I'm retired, so the money aspect is more important to me than how much time it takes.

The old dishwasher was sold for $50 to someone who understood its age and condition.  I stained a few pine boards and some wood for cleats, and installed a precisely placed shelf in the open space after attaching a 1/4 inch plywood backing (also stained to match adjacent cabinets) to the wall behind where the dishwasher was.  Now that space is home to my two tall stock pots and my large enameled roasting pan with lid (none of which would fit into any of our other cabinets) and two newer matching pans with lids that just fill in the space and look nice there.

I do have an anti-fatigue mat which has helped my feet enormously.  One of our new cats loves it too -- as a claw sharpener, LOL!  Another cat, who is black, lays down on the black mat and blends in so well that he often narrowly escapes being stepped on.  He seems to think that's fun, probably because I haven't actually stepped on him with my full weight yet.

I find washing the dishes is all about context, needs, energy situation. I rented property in the past and had dishwashers sometimes with more or less success. Now I live in a tiny home on wheels with solar power and got married to a man that does not do the dishes or cook. I tried for 3 years (or more) to train him to do the dishes but it was not working, to the extent neither of us would give up our definition of ”fair” and it was stressing me every single day. So we bought a dishwasher used online, which was a disaster for the batteries as it used a lot more electricity than it was supposed to and it turned out to be a waste of natural resources, money and time.

Then we bought an energy Aplus efficient dishwasher and that has been a wonderful success. Not only uses 8 liters of water per load, but it uses very little electricity in the eco setting which is 3.5 hours. However, living in the outskirts of Stockholm, Sweden, the winters are very dark and cloudy. Those days I do the dishes by hand, it all falls very much on me, but it is doable so far. Water comes from the rain and when frozen temps, from a well. I do not have running hot water and heat my home and cook in the winter with a wooden stove, (also super efficient stove but not a rocket stove), and I heat water for coffee in a gas stove.
In my case and due to the extremes between summer and winter, I find that I need several systems for different times and needs. It is perhaps more difficult to achieve self sufficiency than in a milder climate and it takes longer time, uses more space that is premier in my tiny home, but it is important to keep in mind not all dish washers are the same, some are evil and some are very well designed,  not all situations are the same, not all cultures are the same, same with needs, etc.
I am happy with the solution so far, specially when I think it is free to do the dishes when the sun is shining! (yes it is not really ”free” as the set up costs) but I enjoy this solution in my particular case, including the hand washing from time to time.

The biggest problem with a dishwasher is grey water reclamation.

When washing dishes by hand, even if you don't have a Y pipe under the sink to reclaim nice warm soapy grey water, it only takes about a half minute to bail it, and the rinse bucket is already ready to go.

My son gave me a dishwasher which sat for a few years outdoors until I could sneak it in with the scrap metal.

In my less than humble opinion, the options are proper industrial dishwashers or a washing up bowl.

I’ve spent too much time trying to fix “white goods”/ home appliances that are built to last the warranty period.

If you’re regularly cooking for less than 15 people, a dishwasher isn’t worth losing the cupboard space and time fixing the thing.

Real dishwashers in commercial kitchens that use a plastic rack to rinse, wash and store mugs, glasses and cutlery actually do save time, human energy and human backs. The type where you load up the rack, put it over the sink to rinse, slide the whole thing into the dish washer, wait 2 minutes and then slide it into a storage rack. The type of equipment that comes with a service contract. Those things are worth the space and expense for a business style setup.

(I’ll also make the same argument for printers, these types of machines should be owned by businesses, libraries or service companies. Private ownership is far too much like hard work)

r ranson wrote:New to dishwashers here.  My observations after week one.

(we have a well pump which is a power hog, but our water heater is heated with spillover from the geothermal heat pump)

3% savings on the electric bill.  But we have been dealing with quite a back log of dishes and now we can easily wash dishes we are cooking two hot meals a day instead of one (so double cooking time per day and yet still saving money).  When things settle down, we expect a 7-10% savings.

It has yet to reach the 28 decibel promised.

Eating loads healthier as less time spent washing dishes.

Dramatically less food wasted as we feel inspired to cook.  Maybe 20-30% of the food would normally be wasted, we are down to about 2%.  I expect this will settle out to 5% over time.  I say "wasted" but it mostly means fed to chickens.  But still, that's expensive chicken food.

The largest cycle I can run on the washing machine is four gallons and about four hours.  The regular cycle is under 2 hours and uses less than three gallons.  (That's US gallons which are smaller than Canadian/UK).  I think eco-mode uses far less water and electricity, but a) requires a smart phone to use which we do not have and b) is best for not-very-dirty dishes.  

To hand wash the amount of dishes we can fit in the washing machine requires multiple changes of water, at about 2-4 gallons each load (including rinse and pre-rinse water).  if also takes us about 4 days due to health concerns.

The dishwasher instructions say specifically NOT TO PRE RINSE the dishes before putting them in.  I take this seriously.  Except for melted cheese.  that seems to need soaking first.  According to what I can tell, the soap needs an amount of dirt to grab hold of and scour the dishes or something?  We are getting to the point where we are washing every other day and the dried on sauces aren't an issue.  So long as we scrape away all the solids.

Until about a month ago, I was dead set against getting a dishwasher.  I've never used one before.  All the ones I've tried to use, broke.  and all the excellent reasons listed in this thread.

Now, I feel it's an essential part to our "aging in place" which is basically living at home with all the "surprises" getting old gives us.  The dishwasher has dramatically reduced stress in our lives and that makes it worth it for me.  

Although I think, some of those older versions wouldn't be so nice.  


...

Holiday baking starts tomorrow, so I wanted to do an update before that.

Power savings (including double the amount of cooking)  settled at 12% less than pre dishwasher.  

Food bill settled at 20% less, but that includes stocking up for holiday baking.  That mostly from less food waste and less premade foodstuff.  We can cook more from the garden now, so I expect our food bill will be half or one third of last years.

Other than that one dish with melted cheese, every dish has come out clean.  No pre rinse or post clean.

That said. If it wasn't for getting older, I would never have accepted a dishwasher into the house.  This is nothing like I expected.  Quiet...too much so we can't tell when it's on.  So little water and soap needed.  So little pain compared to trying to wash by hand.  And better quality clean than we could achieve by hand anymore.  It was either try this machine or hire someone.   Given that humans can't be trained not to use scouring items in stainless steel pots (scratches make food stick), this machine is much better.

It's nothing like any dishwasher I met before.

What makes it work best of all is good communication in the house.  We can try things, see what works, make adjustments based on human habits, and keep communicating.  I can't see a dishwasher functioning without the humans working together.

r ranson wrote:That said. If it wasn't for getting older, I would never have accepted a dishwasher into the house.  This is nothing like I expected.  Quiet...too much so we can't tell when it's on.  So little water and soap needed.  So little pain compared to trying to wash by hand.  And better quality clean than we could achieve by hand anymore.  It was either try this machine or hire someone.   Given that humans can't be trained not to use scouring items in stainless steel pots (scratches make food stick), this machine is much better.

It's nothing like any dishwasher I met before.

I guess that's one thing when it comes to older threads.  While planned obsolescence may have gotten worse in many cases, other factors like energy efficiency, water efficiency, and dB level have improved considerably.  Thus, perhaps some of Paul's original figures may not hold as true for new, decent machines.

I'm happy it's working out for you.  At least we are all aging at the same rate (one day at a time).

I think most dishwashers still follow the original numbers.  It was difficult to find one lower than 30 decibel or that had actual water amounts per cycle.  Most seem to be following tradition.

The way I save the most water is to realize not every dish I use needs to be washed. I can often re-use a dish for several meals or even days before needing to wash it. Same for pots/pans.  The second thing I do is to catch every bit of water I use for hand washing and dish rinsing: that water gets used to pre-treat dishes that do need to be washed.

I think dishwashers are a terrible idea, at least for a single family home. Its one of the craziest things i put up with in my opinion. Reasons:

1. You have to buy it
2. You have to install it
3. You have to maintain it
4. You have to buy a special kind of soap at minimum, and some people buy a rinse aid so their “clean” dishes come out with a layer of gut destroying poison on them.
5. You have to hand wash half the dishes before putting them in it anyway!
6. It takes up valuable space
7. It used electricity
8. You have to bend over to put things into it and bend over again to unload things from it, unless you somehow have space on your counter top for it.
9. Your dishes will never dry inside a dishwasher, just sit in a warm humid environment. You can get around that by using the dry function and then use more electricity to do something that God would have done for you for free by leaving the dishes on your dish rack after washing by hand.
10. I almost never find a load of dishes that is 100% clean coming out of that thing. When washed by hand, almost every load of dishes is 100% clean.

The only time I use it is when we are overwhelmed with dishes and even then I still hate the damn thing. My wife used it all the time but I almost always just hand wash.

I'm feeling slightly justified about my earlier post.

The door latch broke on mum and dad's dishwasher during the first load after christmas lunch. This then meant that Dad and I had to drag the dishwasher out, in order to take the top off, to get to the top of the latch.

Of course you can't just take the cover of the door off because they're all hidden when the door is closed because making something maintainable is "ugly".

Earlier today I washed up the mugs of 28 people from coffee time and it was a good time to stand there and sing to myself for 10 minutes.

Question for R. Ranson:
Your new dishwasher that seems to work so well, what brand and model is it?
I bought a quite well reviewed one (Bosch), and am not happy with it. It's fairly conservative of water and power, but not as good at cleaning as I wanted.
I used to have a used Asko, and it worked quite well but when it came time to replace it I got sticker shock and changed brands, to my regret.
Thanks.

I wash by hand, I usually find it a calming and productive moment of minor accomplishment even though I have a brand new dishwasher, came with the house and I was told to use it at least once a year to keep the seals from drying out...so I do, but really don't like to.