washing dishes by hand vs. dishwasher: water, expense and time

What I like about washing dishes by hand is that it encourages extreme mindfulness. Some might call it laziness LOL. I use hardly any dishes, and HAVE hardly any dishes!

I cook most of my meals on the stovetop with one pot, occasionally also use a cast-iron frypan. And my main eating vessels are one (stainless steel) bowl-like plate or should I say plate-like bowl, sort of a hybrid of a plate and a bowl (imagine a plate but with curved-up edges so it can hold soup) and one spoon.

Most of my meals are vegan or vegetarian, and I find that I can simply rinse off my dish with a swish of cold water as soon as I finish eating, and it's fine (clean enough), since I'm the only one eating from it.

I rarely need hot water. The stainless-steel pot I use for stovetop cooking, rinses off easily in cold water. When I cook something that's oily or greasy, I use the cast-iron pan. Any extra grease gets used for a subsequent meal. Soap never touches the cast-iron pan. The most I ever do is swish a bit of water in it.

In addition to cooking on a stove, I also use a solar oven. For that I use a thin-walled, enameled black pot. That one is always super easy to clean, since the (mostly vegan or vegetarian) food gets cooked at the relatively low temps common to solar cooking, there is no messy sticky residue. Rinses off pretty easily with cold water.

For the occasional hot water needed, I'll heat some up in the kettle.

Washing dishes takes me less than 5 minutes a day, and usually consumes less than a gallon of water. Oh, and when I use detergent, I use it in VERY dilute form - a bottle of dishwashing liquid lasts more months than I remember. Maybe a year! Another thing I use besides detergent is a bit of baking soda, for those times I need something a little more than water to scrub the cookware.

Water gets captured in a big stainless-steel pot and I use it to water my tiny yard, trees etc.

I really appreciate the great ideas and thoughts I've read on this thread - thank you Paul and Jocelyn and everyone else!

Jenny Nazak, apartment-dweller in Daytona Beach, FL USA

I've considered dishwashers, but never used one in my life.

Water use is a consideration

So is energy. I try not to heat anything with electricity if I can help it, so ideally I would want water to be preheated with solar or wood (possibly complex plumbing in my current fairly low tech system, different systems for summer and winter etc.)

So is time. Housework takes up way too much of our time, and time is an issue when you herd animals, bake bread, weed, harvest, dig clay for ecobuildings, catalogue seeds etc.  

Dishwashers seem to require special detergent and the issue of this in greywater seems to be being glossed over. Could I use homemade liquid soap in a dishwasher?

The dishwasher should be able to work efficiently with a small amount of dishes. I don't want to use lots of dishes for the sake of running a dishwasher at full capacity. I like the one knife, one fork, one spoon, one bowl, one mug system (with extra dishes stored away, out of sight and mind, for guests).

Also the dishwasher should not be a POS. It should be sturdy, durable, repairable (mostly standard components, not dependent on weird flimsy little bits of plastic only made by a small company in China) and ultimately recyclable. Money is an issue too

If a dishwasher meets those specifications I'm open to the idea

Also consider different styles of eating: sharing a central dish of food for instance. Maybe not hygienic enough for some, but it is done in many parts of the world. Cooking a big pot of stew for several meals, or baking 8 loaves of bread is better than spending hours preparing lots of little meals cleaning up after each (sometimes in communal settings, I have noticed people choosing to spend hours cooking lots of small meals as an alternative to doing heavier work)

By the same logic, living without a washing machine would be slightly more bearable if we wore different clothes - shirts with detachable cuffs and collars for instance (something which went out around the time washing machines came in). I still value my washing machine very highly, but technology can become addictive rather than simply useful when we build our lives around it.

I'm not trying to start more arguments, but I live in Kentucky, where there is no water shortage to speak of, so the differences in water consumption are truly trivial. I have long considered a dishwasher to be one of the greatest, most labor saving devices ever invented.  That said, I typically use the "air dry" settings in summer and switch to the "heated dry" settings in winter.  So while I also use more energy with my dishwasher overall, I have some control about how beneficial that "waste heat" is to my household.  I burn wood during occupied waking hours in winter, and use propane as the automatic alternative.  So I typically reload & start the dishwasher before going to bed, so that the heat contribution occurs overnight, when my woodstove is burning low enough to safely dampen down and ignore; while the waste heat from the dishwasher is displacing the (much more expensive) fossil fueled heat.  I can't provide measurements about how much this saves me in propane, but it's a number higher than zero.  Also, since both the dishwasher & the woodstove are in the kitchen, if I were to run the dishwasher when the woodstove is still near it's peak heat output, the kitchen becomes uncomfortable rather quickly.  So I suspect that the real heat contribution from the dishwasher is not trivial, either.

Dale Hodgins wrote: "My greatest beef with other people who clear the table or otherwise try to help, is that they place everything in on top of something greasy."

My Dad and Uncle Harry had a terrific knock-down, drag-out about this very issue. It approached the top of their lungs as we rolled west in a borrowed motor home. Uncle Harry didn't want the plates stacked because he didn't want to have to wash the bottoms as well as the tops. My Dad thought he was being unreasonable (and a few other unmentionables). I don't stack the dishes because I'm lazy too.

Creighton Samuiels wrote:I'm not trying to start more arguments, but I live in Kentucky, where there is no water shortage to speak of

I live in Florida, where we get 49 inches of rain a year, so technically there is no water shortage here either. And yet I still feel compelled to minimize my consumption of fresh water, because we have a limited supply of it planet-wide. Also, where I live, although we get a lot of rain, people don't do a good job of saving it -- either on the land via mulching and earthworks, or in rainbarrels. No matter where I live, I've always felt compelled to minimize my water consumption. And I'm not trying to start arguments either
This is a great thread though!! Very educational and inspiring.

Peter Ingot wrote:By the same logic, living without a washing machine would be slightly more bearable if we wore different clothes - shirts with detachable cuffs and collars for instance (something which went out around the time washing machines came in). I still value my washing machine very highly, but technology can become addictive rather than simply useful when we build our lives around it.

VERY good points! And interesting bit of information ... that detachable cuffs & collars went out at about the time washing machines came in. Which came first, the chicken or the egg ...?

BTW I had a gig for a while cleaning a house whose occupants were DROWNING in clothes. I can't even describe to you how many clothes each family member had, but to give you an idea, each of the young kids had at least A HUNDRED pairs of shoes. The adults had far more. These people were literally doing laundry all of the time. Large closets, huge chests of drawers, every available surface ... all jammed with clothes. I swear, sometimes I found myself putting things into the laundry just to get them off the dining-room table.

If the washing machine had never been invented, would families ever get themselves into this situation?

Sorry, I strayed from the dishwasher topic but it seemed relevant. Which comes first, the invention of an appliance or the extreme proliferation in volume of STUFF that needs attending to? Interesting exploration.

Jenny Nazak wrote:

Creighton Samuiels wrote:I'm not trying to start more arguments, but I live in Kentucky, where there is no water shortage to speak of

I live in Florida, where we get 49 inches of rain a year, so technically there is no water shortage here either. And yet I still feel compelled to minimize my consumption of fresh water, because we have a limited supply of it planet-wide.  

No, we don't.  Water shortages are, most certainly, a regional issue; and the nature of the water cycle guarantees that it will always be so.  Your personal convictions are noble, but not based in reality.  Every region has it's ecological limitations, and we are wise to acknowledge those, but it is not always a lack of freshwater.  If you truly are concerned about the difference in water consumption between hand-washing dishes and using a dishwasher; you can buy a new water-compliant dishwasher available this year (which consume a maximum of 2.5 gallons per fill cycle, or typically 5 gallons per standard wash & rinse; I work in a dishwasher factory) or simply plant a deciduous tree.  One adult tree will contribute about as much water into the air, and thus the water cycle, as an acre of ocean surface; and it is not difficult for an acre of woodlot to hold 50+ mature trees.  As a bonus, you are also (temporarily) sequestering carbon during their growth.

Creighton Samuiels wrote:If you truly are concerned about the difference in water consumption between hand-washing dishes and using a dishwasher; you can buy a new water-compliant dishwasher available this year (which consume a maximum of 2.5 gallons per fill cycle, or typically 5 gallons per standard wash & rinse; I work in a dishwasher factory)

EXCELLENT! An industry insider's perspective. Thank you. And it confirms that I use less water with my method. I use less *in my situation, the way I do it*. I can't speak for others. Some folks might be using 10 gallons of water to hand-wash their dishes. Those folks would save by getting one of these dishwashers you mention.

My method also uses less electricity than I would if I were to get a dishwasher. Not to mention the embodied energy of the dishwasher's manufacture, the additional hours I would need to work to earn the money to purchase the dishwasher, etc. (Some people have high-paying jobs and would laugh at that notion. I imagine there are some folks on here  who earn enough in an hour or two to buy a dishwasher.)

Also, I have found that *FOR ME*, my method encourages me to find ways to minimize energy expenditure (human OR fossil). Not having a machine to wash my dishes encourages me to find the simplest cooking methods and cleanup methods, and also to keep my inventory of possessions to a minimum. I keep just enough pots and dishes for myself and friends/guests.  

Creighton Samuiels wrote:or simply plant a deciduous tree.  One adult tree will contribute about as much water into the air, and thus the water cycle, as an acre of ocean surface; and it is not difficult for an acre of woodlot to hold 50+ mature trees.  As a bonus, you are also (temporarily) sequestering carbon during their growth.

Hear, hear! I'll mulch to that any day!!

Jenny

Jenny Nazak wrote:

Creighton Samuiels wrote:If you truly are concerned about the difference in water consumption between hand-washing dishes and using a dishwasher; you can buy a new water-compliant dishwasher available this year (which consume a maximum of 2.5 gallons per fill cycle, or typically 5 gallons per standard wash & rinse; I work in a dishwasher factory)

EXCELLENT! An industry insider's perspective. Thank you. And it confirms that I use less water with my method. I use less *in my situation, the way I do it*. I can't speak for others. Some folks might be using 10 gallons of water to hand-wash their dishes. Those folks would save by getting one of these dishwashers you mention.

Well, you *probably* do, if you can wash as many dishes as a fully loaded dishwasher without changing your wash water more than once.  But that maximum is a new EPA regulation, and many models used less than that already, depending upon the cycle.  If you have soft water, some modern models can automaticly detect that, and use less water by design as a result.  

My method also uses less electricity than I would if I were to get a dishwasher. Not to mention the embodied energy of the dishwasher's manufacture, the additional hours I would need to work to earn the money to purchase the dishwasher, etc. (Some people have high-paying jobs and would laugh at that notion. I imagine there are some folks on here  who earn enough in an hour or two to buy a dishwasher.)

You definitely use less energy, even on an "energy saver" cycle.  Dishwashers are required to heat the dishes high enough to "pasteurize" the surface, which typically means 140 degrees for 7 minutes.  So whether or not the water is heated before going into the dishwasher, the cycle still requires quite a bit of heat, even without heated drying.  I can't imagine that a dishwasher would be cost effective on an off-grid home.

When we moved into our current house we didn't have a dishwasher and I happily hand washed everything till I tore my left rotator cuff.  My husband hand washed the dishes for about a week and he bought a dishwasher. I do still hand wash dishes but I love the dishwasher when I am injured, have company over, or I am doing a lot of canning.  I need to remember that I can use the dishwasher as a drying rack so it is easier to hand wash the dishes.  

paul wheaton wrote:I would like to add to that that if kids complain of their suffering doing chores like dishes, remind them that all that suffering helps them write good poetry when they are older.

fortunately some of those kids grow up and doing dishes is the last concern it their practical lives

I have read some comments about sterilizing dishes.  I think that is a terrible idea.  George Carlin has some thoughts in this space:

sterilization is imo unwise, and does more damage in long terms .. good old Gorge said it well in his style, respect

When a person tells me that a dishwasher is better because it saves water and then won't allow further discussion ... I feel like that person is not only wrong, but that person can never understand what I feel.

generally talking about water "issues" imo is absurd cause water is water .. it is OK .. it's not like it's going anywhere right? .. why panic .. why fear of loosing water .. how those people experience urination I don't want to ask

people often in their lack of knowledge and wisdom put them selves in "godlike role" (I'm so important and strong and must watch out and fear of not destroying the "whole world") and in the same time can't see that they are playing "devil role" mostly from spreading that fear around themselves that helps them justify their illusions

human didn't invent/create nature and "he" sure will not destroy it .. only him self if he really try hard he sure can do everything .. let's hope (and work along ) that lack of knowledge prevents him in that way and directs him in way of learning and connecting with his environment that he is part of nature not nature itself whatever he believes or wish .. he is still stuck on this planet with everything on it .. and it is still life worthy and always challenging experience imo

Thanks grandad.  You're awesome.

respect!

Years ago when I worked at the shipyard my wife did the dishes by hand. That was all well and good, but by the time I got home at 5:30 PM, had supper, then she did the dishes, it was nearing 7 PM. I was nearing bed time because I got up at 3:30 AM. That did not leave much time to talk about life or the the kids.

One of our houses had a dishwasher and being unoccupied we grabbed it an installed it in our main house. Maybe there is some extra water useage, maybe there is some extra electricity spent, but I got my wife away from the sink and that is priceless.

We have a dishwasher but never use it. I've always washed by hand.

Fill up one side with sudsy hot water/ put dishes in. Soak, wash, transfer to other side, rinse and put in the plate rack. Done. Easy and lot's of good conversation and/or podcasts to listen to. NO biggie.

Extra bonus? The tons of research that says washing dishes by hand leads to less illness in houses - b/c over time we build up good immunity to all the germies and baddies lurking on "un-sterilized" plates. That's the argument against hand sanitizer, yes? Too much santitizing means we sanitize ourselves right into week immune systems. Also toxic additives, etc.

It's always seemed like a no -brainer to me. Grew up without a dishwasher and never missed it. Bought my first house without a dishwasher in it and didn't realize that fact until we were moving in. Our house now has one but I'm thinking that I might rip it out b/c I could use that cabinet space for all the other things I use daily.

Time, time is everything and so is clean. I think we are looking at this as a broad statement. I use my dishwasher. Not ashamed. I work two jobs, go to school and still cook daily. The dishwasher saves me an hour a day. I do my pots every day or two. when I load up the dishwasher after I do pots.

The also big gorilla is clean. I have to scald my dishes. Why? I have pets and they eat off the plates. I have separate plates but they need clean too. I get enough germs at work and play thank you. So do they.  I also like to say this. I do entertain a lot of people at times. If someone has Hep C or something I like to be sure we have cleaned the utensils. Not hateful, just cautious. Unless you have a true sterilization system heat/steam or a three sink system it is something to consider.

I have traveled the world. One thing that is true is good sanitation and food handling skills. People stopped dying in the streets when safe food handling was learned and taught. Most of you get a C- in this dept. Sorry, the truth hurts. A Kosher Kitchen is a subject to learn from. There is a reason they boil knives that cut meat. It is not always germs we are trying to destroy also.

Now, one more thing. I do not like a lot of the new dishwashers. They dont use a heat dry. If they do not heat the water up to 160, a good heat dry will accomplish the same thing. Many of the new dish detergents do not use  a bleach. I have ran loads that I flt were not clean enough. If you get a stink out of your dishwasher. There is a systematic failure.

I also like to point out that many people run the water heaters at too low a setting and they breed bacteria. Clock them up once in a while and get them cleaned up. There is a reason one should never drink hot water out of many taps.

My gosh, I can not believe I spent time on this this morning.

My dishwasher is used for 2 reasons. First: My sink is much to small to really use. Second: I am lazy/ like to spend the little time i have in the garden or with other things than doing dishes. Of course i try to minimize the ecological footprint of my dishwasher, but i am aware that it is still bigger than washing by hand. I dont even think it is more hygienic. The danger of germs on dishes is in my opinion negligible. Contaminated water and food are the main problems, especially if bacteria have time to multiply in moist, warm environment. For most pathogens, sterilization is overkill and only really necessary if you are preparing food for storage. This is also applicable for almost all pathogens transmitted by animals. You dont have to sterilize your hands after petting your dog or cat. Washing is sufficient (and better for your hands)

I cook all our food from scratcht, we didn't have a dishwasher first tow years we lived here - and honestly having to do the dishes after every meal made me not want to cook at all. If felt like all I ever did was washing dishes...

Maybe if I had an indentured servant or maybe just a servant... I would be willing to go back. I also was completely unable to use as little water as my dishwasher does (7-10L). I get tired of eating one pot foods (which we also did the first two years as we didn't have more than one burner), and I developed a nasty rash on my hands that I am still fighting...

I love my dishwasher! If I can find someone to work for me for as little as that thing costs me, then I will consider doing things differently (and yes that comes down to oil prices...) but currently I would rather be a creative cook, do gardening and play with my kids.

Dan Boone wrote:
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I spent too much of my childhood washing dishes for a family of six using two dishpans (actually big stainless steel mixing bowls), one wash cloth, and a dish drainer.  Big dishpan full of soap and water and dirtiest non-plastic dishes would be heated on the wood stove until water was "hot", along with a two-quart kettle of supplemental hot water.  Small dishpan would have clean cold water in it, sometimes warmed a bit on the stove so it wouldn't be miserable to dip hands in.  Hot kettle was used to top up the big dishpan as water splashed out (we had a two sinks draining into a slop-bucket arrangement) and dippers of cold water from the drinking water bucket (2.5 gallon) could be used to supplement the rinse as necessary.  Protocol was to empty the five-gallon slop bucket before and after, so I can confirm that total water use was generally in the 3-4 gallon range.  The project (starting with putting the cold water on the stove, emptying the slop bucket, filling the water bucket) usually took about an hour at kid pace.  Slop water got slung into the woods behind the outhouse.  All of our water was hauled quite a distance so, in winter, we'd sometimes be told to start with dishpan packed full of snow to minimize water use.   No extra charge for the spruce needles and snowshoe hare poop.

I've seen several sentiments in this thread discounting the cost or the value of the time spent hand-washing dishes.  There's the notion that dishwashing time can be quality social time, the notion that the person washing dishes doesn't have anything more valuable or interesting to do with the time, and the notion (expressed quite wittily) that time spent by children can be discounted because it's "automatic" from the perspective of some other person.  It strikes me how contextual each of these notions must be, in order for it to be true.  Dishwashing time in our cabin was never social, friendly, or familial; dishwashing was always a chore and frequently a punishment, carried out while other family members sat at leisure less than ten feet away ignoring the dishwashing process except to instruct/complain/bitch about perceived imperfections.  Obviously it could have been different had my parents been other than they were, but in that context, house chores were never "quality time" and always an imposition into whatever activities we children felt had value (usually reading or getting the hell out of the cabin on whatever pretext).  Forty years later I remain quite hostile to the notion that there's anything inherently pleasant or ennobling about routine repetitive chores; I would have to be very dull indeed if I could not imagine some better and more pleasant or productive use of my time.   Being able to fill the sonic environment with entertainment or education is the best way to mitigate the opportunity cost of time lost to routine chores, and it's how I cope with them now.  I can imagine (but have never experienced) filling the time with pleasant socializing.  I cannot imagine thinking "I've got nothing better to do."  Thinking "the kid has nothing better to do" would be hypocritical, and also suggests a parenting failure; the kid damned well should have something they are more excited about doing than washing dishes.

But I still wash dishes by hand (for reasons mostly economic) and other people wash dishes by hand to save water or energy or the fossil fuel embodied in the dishwater.  My point is that these motives don't generalize well.  Whether you want to save water versus expense versus time is hugely contextual.  What are your circumstances, what are your values, what is the opportunity cost to you of an hour spent with a dishrag in hand?  Everybody's got a different answer.  

Thank you!

I spent too much time doing dishes as a kid too. In my grandmas house it was fun-time (and we were allowed to lick our dessert bowls if we helped my uncle do the dishes). In my godparents house in Sweden it would be a social event too - and even getting water from the well was a pleasure. But at home - even if we did have hot running water out of the tap, I was lonely and a clear indication that my time was worth far far less than my parents time.

I swore to never treat my children like servants or slaves, like I was. They do help out around the house, but my feelings around dishes are so negative as a result of my childhood experience that making social and enjoyable is near impossible for me... And I can grow a lot of veggies or knit a load of leg warmers etc. in the time it would take me to do the dishes, dance ballet withy daughter, go for a walk in nature, cook yet another lovely meal.

We have a dishwasher, but we hardly ever use it.  Mostly we wash dishes by hand in a double sink, one sink full of hot soapy water and the other sink filled with hot rinse water.  
The rinse sink is plumbed as grey water out to some cherry trees, we live in Arizona so the trees need the water anyway.  The wash sink is plumbed to drain through our sewer lines into the septic tank, I thought about sending the wash sink out as grey water, however we have cut back our black water so far that it needs that extra 3 gallons of daily water to keep the pipes clear.

So, the point is, no mater how much water you use to wash dishes, it isn't wasted if you can reuse it.

I came across this thread earlier today at work and found it rather fascinating.  Typically we do use a dishwasher, we like to cook, have parties etc.  which means that every now and again we use a lot of plates, silverware etc.   I (admittedly) hadn't done dishes in several days and they were piled up, and the dishwasher was almost full.  So I put what I could in the DW and started it.  I did the rest by hand, had dinner, cleared off the dried dishes from the dish drain, and then refilled it with a second load of dishes from dinner. I started the dishwasher about 6:00ish??? and here it is 7:45 and it is still going, meanwhile i've handwashed 2 loads of dishes and the kitchen is now clean.  we have a dual basin sink, so dirty dishes went in the soapy dishwater on one side, and placed in the other, then rinsed and put on the drying rack.  I think I may be doing dishes by hand more often.  

I also like two do living history at my local renaissance festival, where we have two wash buckets back stage for dishes.   guess what? there 2 buckets that we fill with cold water, we wash in one, rinse in the other and they get set out to dry.  The water gets tossed out the back into the woods and we are done.

I can largely see the advantages to both camps about this.

I just spent the afternoon in the kitchen canning some apple pie filling from some apples that I picked up at the farmers market this morning.  We also did a lot of cooking.  Yes, I could have filled up the dishwasher and ran it, but I realized it was just as quick for me to wash it by hand.  Yes, I did several loads today.  but there is now nothing in the sink, the dishdrain, or the dishwasher, and HEY! I got 12 pints of apple pie filling out of it.  

I've never had a dish washer...I just run the hot water in the sink and use this scourer pad below and it's filled with washing up liquid (Anti-bacterial)

I can now do dishes by hand for a family of 4 in about 20 minutes a day.  I don't even fear the dish tower from guests. My gadget? A round stainless steel bushel basket. I go to the table and load it in an efficient stack.  I take it to the sink and fill it with hot suddsie water.  I let it soak. Then I pull all the items out for a sink rinse and placement on our dry racks.

I'll tell you our story, although I'm not proud of it.

We didn't have a dishwasher for about a year. Our old one broke and we decided hand washing is better anyway, for so many reasons. My husband promised to do the dishes. I promised to do all other housework in exchange. I would do all the cooking, laundry and cleaning the house and he would do the dishes. He had a good attitude to dish washing, he talked about the Zen and dishwashing (or something like that, I might be misquoting here). He listened to music/ radio/ podcasts while doing the dishes. He claimed that it was not really a chore at all. All went fine for about a month or two. Then... he started putting off the dish washing till the next day. "I'll wash them tomorrow". Pretty soon it became "I'll wash them once a week." You can guess what the kitchen looked like... It caused arguments because naturally my husband hated being reminded of his chores.
We finally bought a dishwasher and now I fill and empty it every day and he sometimes helps. No more arguments about household chores.

Please note. This is not an example of how I think things "inevitably" go. I just shared it in case it gives someone a good laugh or comforts someone who also may have had similar challenges

I do think that whether or not one has running hot water makes a big difference too. In our case we didn't have running hot water (only running cold water) so we first had to heat the water and that was part of what made the hand washing time-consuming for us.

A weeks worth of dishes is a lot... of dishes to own! I've known others who have like 20-30 settings of everything for 3 people, and things can pile up as a result, and even with a dishwasher it can take a day to catch up. My solution would be to get rid of most of those dishes, so you have 2-3 meals worth total and then there's no more meals until the dishes are done first. Worst case, they are washed just before reuse but at least the pile in the sink is smaller that way.

I have a complete set of 4 plates/bowls/cups and then some other single serving glass and ceramic dishes for storing food I cook in bulk (about to dish up some crock pot goodness right now before bed in fact). So technically I could go 8 meals by using a single spoon or fork each meal, but normally everything is washed after dinner unless I really don't have 5 minutes to spare which is rare. I have a dishwasher, it was turned on when I bought the house 3 years ago by the inspector. Waste of space to me. Something else that can leak water or stink things up if you don't first "pre-wash" the food from the dishes before putting them in to wash. And as a single guy it would take a full week to get enough dishes for a full load, meaning most dishes would have rock-hard caked on food bits. And if you have any plastic in there, that gets rinsed and dried again to get the water out of it.

No thanks!

Nina Jay wrote:We finally bought a dishwasher and now I fill and empty it every day and he sometimes helps. No more arguments about household chores.

Perhaps the replacement dishwasher you got should've had two arms and legs?

We've never had nor ever will have a mechanised dishwasher. I do all the cooking and washing and it is indeed a time to zen-out and slow down from what is now an almost unavoidable overstimulated lifestyle.

The nasty shit chemicals used in dishwasher cubes/powders/liquids are an issue for me too, besides the environmental consequences, there's the prospect of residue left on cutlery, dishes and pans.

Also, there's always a need to regularly clean the dishwasher, which I bet most people don't do.

(This 'dishwasher' automatically self cleans at least once a day!)

There was a study done by the University of Bonn:

'As result out of the investigation of 113 persons it is found that the average consumption to clean 12 place settings of dishes was measured to 103 litres of water ...'

https://www.landtechnik.uni-bonn.de/research/appliance-technology/all-projects/a-european-comparison-of-cleaning-dishes-ht1by-hand

I don't know the 'typical' German water usage, for such things but, 27 US Gallons/23 IMP Gallons is a LOT of water. We would not go near using that amount of water to wash and rinse that number of items to ensure everything is squeaky clean.

Me thinks public discussion has been clouded by corporate deals in back rooms ... amongst others, remember the Volkswagen Emissions Scandal?

I have somehow managed to never have a dishwasher in my home (between living in countries where it wasn't that common, tiny kitchen, and also lack of funds). The last house, we moved in and I said I would buy one when I felt like I needed one. So far it's been 6 years in April and I still don't have one. We also go the route of minimal silverware and make a point of washing every night (otherwise we have vermin issues). Whoever didn't cook dinner washes up at night (and if i'm eating alone, it's over the sink/out on the porch with no dishes, why complicate things). We use very little water (basin) and the homemade soap is great for washing dishes. Bonus is that during dry times I can use the rinse water on the gardens.

In the interest of science: I never had to wash dishes as a kid so I don't see it as punishment. I cook a LOT, but much of what I cook uses tools/machines that can't go in the dishwasher anyway. I don't think I ever feel bad about washing dishes except possibly when making beer, because 100 bottles is enough to make anyone a bit grumpy (but a little homebrew makes that process less onerous).

Mark Tudor wrote:A weeks worth of dishes is a lot... of dishes to own! I've known others who have like 20-30 settings of everything for 3 people, and things can pile up as a result, and even with a dishwasher it can take a day to catch up. My solution would be to get rid of most of those dishes, so you have 2-3 meals worth total and then there's no more meals until the dishes are done first. Worst case, they are washed just before reuse but at least the pile in the sink is smaller that way.

That's a good suggestion - for normal people But we are such dirty pigs we just ate from dirty plates a lot of the time... or cleaned just one plate each and left the others waiting in the sink [shameful face emoticon]. We've never owned more dishes than for 3 meals. I hated our kitchen then because there was always dirty dishes in the sink and they got in the way when I wanted to wash veggies.

In my stubbornness I refused to wash the dishes - a deal is a deal, he said it's not a problem for him to wash the dishes and I've done my share of housework, that's the way my stubborn thought process went...

Another thing my husband did when he finally did wash the dishes was to just wash the plates, cups and cutlery and leave the kettles, milk bottles, baking bowls etc. to be washed "later", when he "has time".  He kept insisting that washing dishes is no problem for him every time I tried to talk about it. And that he will do it in his own time and I should just focus on my end of the deal and not complain about his way of doing the dishes because he doesn't complain about how I do the laundry or cook. And that's true, he doesn't. He always eats whatever I cook and never complains. And I tell you some of my cooking is pretty bizarre...

I couldn't find a way to solve this marital dilemma and bought a dishwasher instead... [another shameful face emoticon]

The best thing about the dishwasher in my opinion is that it's so tidy. It doesn't splash water all over the kitchen tables, floor, or drawers. The dirty dishes wait there rinsed and are out of sight. The kitchen looks a lot nicer. And it does save time in my experience. But I didn't buy it for those reasons. I bought it to save our marriage.

The downsides of dishwashers are considerable too. I don't like the dishwasher cubes/powders/liquids any more than F Agricola does. I use an absolute minimum of dishwasher liquid, less than what the manufacturer's recommended minimum dose. I regularly clean the dishwasher with citric acid (food grade).

I meant to comment on this last week when i saw it but then things got in the way... but better late than never

Nina Jay wrote:I couldn't find a way to solve this marital dilemma and bought a dishwasher instead... [another shameful face emoticon]
.

I think it`s a great solution! Choosing your battles is probably one of the most intelligent things you can do (the way I see it, whatever relationship is not going to have 100% agreement on anything, so why expect it, better to roll with it), and only you can decide where those lines are to be drawn. When your person otherwise has a lot of redeeming qualities, sometimes you just need to move on.

Here's a recent blog post about using an old fashioned soap saver/shaker, for washing dishes using bar soap.  http://gdonna.com/living-like-the-past/moving-along//

She particularly stresses that it needs to be real soap not synthetic, i.e. castile soap or lye soap.  I really enjoy her posts;  the previous one was also about washing dishes, and using a dish scraper.  http://gdonna.com/living-like-the-past/gasping-how-dare-they/

paul wheaton wrote:

I lived with my grandad for a few years starting when I was eleven.  I tend to romanticize everything about that time.   He didn't have a dishwasher.  Everything was washed by hand.  He cooked three meals a day for us, and I did the dishes.  There were so few dishes that everything went pretty quickly.  When I set the table, I pulled the dishes out of the dishrack.  It was a simple and quick system.  I cannot justify it, but it felt good and right. Our work is done.  The idea of a dishwasher is a violation of this romantic notion:  put your dirty dishes into a box and it will be dealt with later.   The food will both rot and petrify in there.  Then you keep pulling more and more dishes out of the cupboards and use those, and keep feeding dirty dishes into the box.  Your work is not done - you have put it off.  It just feels wrong.  There is a festering mess of shame poorly concealed behind a plastic door.  The way that we manage cleaning dishes is not dictated by the meal, but by the machine.

YES. THIS. Brilliant and beautiful. Thank you.

Fed up with dishwashers that never got dishes clean - and constantly broke - once right after we moved in (the thing was brand new) and then again not in 9 yrs but a mere 3 yrs later - we decided to try an experiment. We bought a small tub that fit into our sink, and we began washing our dishes in that. Our 1/4-acre permaculture garden is right out the back door, so we just take the leftover greywater out there to the garden after two rounds of dishes (light cooking) or one, if there's grease or a lot of cleanup. We use Dr. Bronner's soap. The garden plants love this and have responded with better yields. I think the peppermint soap actually helps deter pests that would otherwise eat the green tops of carrots and turnips - for the first time, they looked pristine, untouched by chewing insect. Having to empty the tub 3X a day means we're taking outdoor breaks that many times, which feels good for us. We might linger in the garden when we do, noticing things. We also feel so good doing the dishes, that we actually fight over who 'gets' to do them. Even if we're tired after a long day. I think washing dishes is simply rewarding in a way that our day jobs aren't; it's honest and uncomplicated; it leaves you feeling you've completed something good.

We use our dishwasher to store extra-large rice chex boxes, awkwardly-shaped reusable silicone food storage bags, and liquor bottles. Much better use for it than washing dishes, as it turns out.

A favorite topic of mine. A priority for every place I have lived was to have a kitchen window above the sink. Precisely for looking out of and enjoying the observing of nature while washing the dishes. Oddly, a great many places I have lived have always had dishwashers as well. Rentals. Great for storage of my large cooking items, ALWAYS. I have never used a dishwasher for it's intended purpose.
I disagree with the argument of the less water usage for the box appliance. Most folks I know scrape and since the dishes so thoroughly, with the water running the whole time, that they were just a soap step away from clean anyways. Silly to me.
I personally enjoy the downtime of dish washing. I enjoy the process for what it is. I am the person at all gatherings that is the first in the kitchen for volunteer dish duty. Ignoring the host's bit about, "oh, we have a dishwasher", 😚 Added bonus of great escape from gatherings too. The water and the dishes don't rant of politics or religion inappropriately. 😜
Just this weekend a water pipe burst, and I was still able to do the dinner dishes with no issue. I had used the jugs of water that I use to collect water from a dripping faucet. (That is a less happier subject.)
I have been a happy hand dishwasher for almost 50 years. Even before I could reach the sink, it was one of my childhood chores with the assistance of a scooted to the sink kitchen chair. I have very clear memories of that chair and how it felt beneath my knees if I took too long.

Also a great time to catch up on podcasts.
😊

We have a dishwasher and I am 1000% sure it uses less than 1/4 of the water my husband does doing dishes. he and every Dane I have come across wash dishes under a running tap. no bowl. Now the dishwasher doesn't really help us with water usage as he washes everything first. and I don't mean rinses it, I mean washes it with soap and hot water and THEN puts it in the washer. However I really don't care about the water use other than cost as our water comes from a bore hole around 200m from the house and goes back into the ground via the septic tank, all that has been wasted is a bit of electricity moving it a few hundred meters.

Someone mentioned only having enough dishes to eat a few meals before washing them up, well that doesn't work, what happens is he doesn't do the dishes for days so I have nothing to cook in then he starts cleaning them around 7pm when he gets hungry, meaning dinner can only be started at 8pm and we end up eating around 10pm.

As to "fun" washing dishes, I hate washing dishes there is almost nothing I like doing less, maybe vacuuming. there is no satisfaction in dish washing it will only have to be done again tomorrow. when I on a rare occasion do wash up I am incredibly happy to have a dishwasher, I went the first 33 years of my life without one, and I do not intend to do so again.

Our most precious commodity is time.  It is finite.  Energy, water, money, emotions, soap, all are infinite by comparison.

If you enjoy washing dishes by hand and considering it time well spent?  That is fantastic and I appreciate the mindfulness it brings you.

I choose not to do 1/16th of my waking lifetime doing dishes.  Or even 1/32nd.  Or 1/64th. The cost is too high. Maybe if I could adequately handwash all of my dishes in less than 10 minutes I'd switch lanes.

Water? Does this or that use too much? Something that has crossed my mind VERY often, since I 1) lived in SoCal AND NV AND TX for a large part of my life, and became very aware, hyper aware, of how precious potable water actually is... 2) have done dishes nearly everything day from the age of 15...

my solution to lessen the worry of "Am I using too much?"...

I just stopped showering EVERY. F-N. DAY. And I let the lawns die/never watered them. Oh, and fixed leaks AS SOON AS THEY APPEARED.

Of course, it helped that the bulk of that "technique" took place here in the "wet half" of TX, where also COVID kept us locked indoors, and I wasn't employed.

New to dishwashers here.  My observations after week one.

(we have a well pump which is a power hog, but our water heater is heated with spillover from the geothermal heat pump)

3% savings on the electric bill.  But we have been dealing with quite a back log of dishes and now we can easily wash dishes we are cooking two hot meals a day instead of one (so double cooking time per day and yet still saving money).  When things settle down, we expect a 7-10% savings.

It has yet to reach the 28 decibel promised.

Eating loads healthier as less time spent washing dishes.

Dramatically less food wasted as we feel inspired to cook.  Maybe 20-30% of the food would normally be wasted, we are down to about 2%.  I expect this will settle out to 5% over time.  I say "wasted" but it mostly means fed to chickens.  But still, that's expensive chicken food.

The largest cycle I can run on the washing machine is four gallons and about four hours.  The regular cycle is under 2 hours and uses less than three gallons.  (That's US gallons which are smaller than Canadian/UK).  I think eco-mode uses far less water and electricity, but a) requires a smart phone to use which we do not have and b) is best for not-very-dirty dishes.  

To hand wash the amount of dishes we can fit in the washing machine requires multiple changes of water, at about 2-4 gallons each load (including rinse and pre-rinse water).  if also takes us about 4 days due to health concerns.

The dishwasher instructions say specifically NOT TO PRE RINSE the dishes before putting them in.  I take this seriously.  Except for melted cheese.  that seems to need soaking first.  According to what I can tell, the soap needs an amount of dirt to grab hold of and scour the dishes or something?  We are getting to the point where we are washing every other day and the dried on sauces aren't an issue.  So long as we scrape away all the solids.

Until about a month ago, I was dead set against getting a dishwasher.  I've never used one before.  All the ones I've tried to use, broke.  and all the excellent reasons listed in this thread.

Now, I feel it's an essential part to our "aging in place" which is basically living at home with all the "surprises" getting old gives us.  The dishwasher has dramatically reduced stress in our lives and that makes it worth it for me.  

Although I think, some of those older versions wouldn't be so nice.  


Keeping in mind this is for our lifestyle and diet.  I have no moral judgent on how other people should wash their dishes.  Only that this is what works for us at this time.  

I like that we have the ability to measure power and water usage.

I also want to point out that theold  washing machine that came with this house, ran the well dry.  It's an 800foot well.  It was rainy season.  It was a very old washing machine.  The dishes did not get clean.   The technology of today's dishwasher is nothing like what came before.

Why are most of post from 8 years ago? We grew up washing dishes by hand. Cleaning the kitchen after dinner was family time. Now at 73 years old, with a family of 3, I wash dishes by hand. We do not create enough dirty dishes to fill a dishwasher. I know my dishes are clean. I use human and eco-friendly soap. I feel good about hand washing our dishes.

Tank water only...so definitely no dishwasher for me...dishes aren't an issue really, there are only two of us, and grew up doing dishes. A quick rinse...if I've still water in the tub from the previous meal then it can be used for the rinse, then scrub with a soapy cloth...and rinse with the smallest amount that comes out of the top...we have solar power and a heat pump for hot water so the water is pretty hot. The rinse water gets saved for first rinses or used to soak crusty pans or used on plants outside....

Burt Crews wrote:Why are most of post from 8 years ago?

That is because threads here on the forum are perennial.  

I love these older threads as there is so much pertinent info.

I quite using my dishwasher except as a drying rack years ago.

I consider them to be a waste of water.