RMH in a Tipi

Mary James, one more thing: I'd like your advice about making ozans. I came to live in the tipi with a basic but ready arsenal of sewing supplies in order to make things for the tipi, especially things that Tony and Emily had said that they jimmied together but should be improved upon. The main thing I wanted to make was an ozan, but upon arrival it occurred to me that it's not as straight-forward as just taking some measurements and sewing accordingly. Do you suggest a certain kind of ideal fabric for the ozan? And you mentioned making ozans based on needs. By your follow-up answer to Miles' question I assume that this refers to making either a full-cover ozan or a partial cover ozan. I think the best option for the RMH tipi is to go full-cover since our fire's exhaust exists through a flue pipe, but do you have any suggestions for this particular tipi? What are some of the things that you would include in your ozan?

I also noticed that our poles are not equidistant (see photo from my post on 11/28- 'temporary ozan hack')- do you suggest fixing this before making and installing an ozan?

Thanks again Mary !

Olenka, As you know, A tipi cover is set up so that there is a space at ground level all the way around. With the smoke flaps open, a pretty good upward draft, or chimney effect is produced. Thus my question to Mary about pulling the cover down to stop this draft. Her answer makes sense to me , better repair a liner than a cover. So an ozan does indeed isolate the living area from that draft, and having a wool layer would really help with insulation.

Since you all are making modifications from traditional use of a lodge , by using the RMH, which doesn't use the smoke flaps. I am wondering if you might be able to also close up the bottom of the lodge using a tarp that would not rot, which might help stop the draft?
If you hold a smoking match at the top of the liner next to the cover can you feel or see a rising draft?

If you all can get a hold of this book I think you might find lots of instructions and patterns for covers, liners, and ozans.

http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Tipi-Its-History-Construction/dp/0806122366/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1419910901&sr=1-2&keywords=the+tipi

Edit:
I just went back and read the whole thread. So it looks like you may already be sealing the cover to the ground? Thus stopping the draft?
Also noticed that the stack goes all the way up and out the top of the cover. Any idea how hot the exhaust might be? It seems like with that going up through the top it would be very hard to seal the smoke hole and tipi top? Thus why you need the "parachute" over the top?
I am wondering if the stack could be shortened and actually end inside the top of the tipi so that the top could be sealed with the smoke flap poles? ( without gassing youselves out or burning the liner).
Although if you no longer have the upward draft that might not work?
Does the back wall of the bench go all around the tipi? I was thinking that this wall almost serves the purpose of a liner and you might be able to just lift the short liner up higher?

Here is a little video of the tipi!

I, too, have been following this thread and find it fascinating and very informative. Now with Cassie's video, even more so! Thanks!

I have never lived in a tipi but have read a lot (I think I even read that book Miles mentioned above once long ago) and have considered having one of my own. I did help raise one once and while certainly no expert, I do remember one thing -- the umbrella is to help keep the rain from sliding down the poles. I can't entirely tell for sure how the exhaust makes it around there but in my studying on rmh's, I think it's needed (or desired) for the draw.

It was the end of a burn, just a few sticks left, and it seemed like the perfect time to catch some 'sideways fire' footage.

Nice video! Cool to see that far into it and actually see the sideways burn.

Hey Olenka, could we possibly get some temperatures from the tipi? Maybe like the inside temp while the rmh is burning, and the inside temp after it's done burning, and the outside temp.

That would be fabulous!

Miles:
I like your suggestion of using a smoking match to detect draft. Today I went around with a smoking match stick at the top of the liner in several places, and there seems to be zero draft. I also did this while it was a steady 60 degrees F (15.5C) in the tipi (thermometer was far from the barrel, but I'm guessing the centre of the tipi was more like 65-70), and when it's that warm in the tipi, the draftiness is not present. I went around again with the smoking match stick as the barrel was cooling down, and that's when the draft starts up.

So, yes, as you noted we have installed tarp along the bottom edge of the tipi cover, closing off the gap between the ground and the tipi canvas cover. This was also done last year during Emily and Tony's stay. At the time that Derick and I installed the tarp in November, it was already getting cold out. We noticed a big difference in that the draft became minimal to none, and the tipi seemed to hold heat better. We also closed the vestibule off completely from the main living space, helping to ease the draft from the doorway (There will be an upcoming post JUST about the vestibule that will help illustrate this). Before then the draft was most noticeable when we were going to sleep: laying still in bed, we could feel cool air rushing over our faces. Now the air is much more still in the tipi, with minimal draft (still slightly present as mentioned above, but drastically different) in the evening when the RMH is no longer being stocked as we tucker-off to sleep.

I will see about ordering the book you have suggested. Thank you.

And about the stack being shortened: We discussed this option at a meeting just this week, but we are concerned about even the slightest possibility of "gassing-out", and so we'd rather avoid possible controversy there. Currently with the vertical exhaust pipe running alongside one of the tipi poles and existing at the top of the tipi with the rest of the poles does mean that, yes, the rain gets in easier than a typical tipi. The parachute stops the rain from coming in, but the "rip stop nylon" that it's made of is now recently torn and Paul thinks it's butt-ugly- so it's time for a new solution. We are currently thinking of taking the parachute off and installing an indoor rain-catcher (There will be another post just for this.)

And I do think that the back of the bench in the tipi acts much like a liner, so it'd be worth shimmying up the liner to make it higher. I'll give it a go.

And Valerie: We'll soon be reconsidering the exhaust route for the tipi RMH. I'll post some ideas, pictures, and maybe some drawings soon about some things to consider. You seem like you'd have some good input for that.

Totally OT - I'm taking 'tuckering-off to sleep' to bed tonight ;) Thanks, Olenka, lol ;)

Cassie:

The outdoor temperatures this past week hovered just above or below 32, so it's made for some consistent, predictable tipi warming conditions.
Between meals the centre of the tipi is about 42-48 F (5-9C).
My average meal cooking brings the centre of the tipi to about 68-72 F (20-22C).

In the evenings I tend to stay put after dinner and do some sitting work. At this point there are post-dinner embers that are glowing bright orange. I feed a few sticks every 30 min-1hr just to keep a little flame going. If the fire goes out completely, the barrel starts to cool and the cold air creeps in since the canvas is so breathable. I notice this happen when it hits about 55, and that's when I realize that I haven't fed and fuel to my RMH in an hour.

Overall the tipi temperature can fluctuate to whatever is desired by feeding the system accordingly. I'm quite comfortable at 65 give or take.
If the RMH is not fed (say overnight or even for a few days), but the mass is warm, the temperature tends to stay at about 45F (7C)-- about 10 degrees warmer than outside (this week).


This coming week is supposed to get a little colder, so we'll see how the "between meals" and "overnight" temperature are effected.

I hope I am not asking questions that were asked before (and forgot they were), but how do you guys deal with showers and internet access? Do you go to base camp?

boiling a pot of water for some dye

caught my eye so I am curious, assuming a natural dye, I'm wondering which one? I have extra dye stuffs to share and have thought of sending to the Lab if anyone would use them. Cold weather is when I usually dye here on the wood stove.

Adrien, I am sure others were wondering, too.

Base camp, yes.

There are plenty of rides going to and fro since Jesse's work is quite active across both places. There's also the electric vehicles. And then there's walking.
I like walking.

At this point there is also ample snow up at the Lab. This means I just melt some dense snow for my water supply. I do this for both cooking and washing at the tipi. I take a 'regular' shower about once a week, which has not made a huge difference in my bodily state as compared to showering more often, so I think from now on I'm going to shower less. Sorry, Derick.
But despite my personal habits, there are lots of opportunities for regular showering down at base camp.

As for internet, this term I got myself my first data plan. It works fine out at the tipi. I just haven't figured out how to tether it to my computer. So today's post comes from the Good Food Store cafe.

Judith: Yes, natural/plant dyes. I am still getting to know the area, so I'm researching and experimenting with what's around the tipi site. It's a great way to get to know the place. and a great way to spend winter, so sure.

I think an important thing to point out is that the thermometer you are using measures air temperature (convective heat). But radiant heat and conductive heat are also at play.

So I think that an important thing to ask is: when you are in a conventional home that is 65 (F), how comfortable are you? And when you are in the tipi and it is 65, how comfortable are you?

My guess is that you might feel "too cold" in a conventional home that is 65, but you might feel perfectly comfortable in the tipi (sitting on the rmh) when the thermometer reads 45.

Good question, Paul.

I think there are several 'temperature comfort' things at play when it comes to the tipi. Considering the convective heat that the thermometer is reading, I think it's being effected mostly by the "warm giving" barrel (radiant) heat, and the "cool giving" draft that comes through gaps in the tipi, as well as through the canvas itself. These two temperature parcels are always at play in this space, one being stronger than the other at any given time, in any given place (the tipi has many temperature zones). So, compared to a conventional home, 65 F (18C) in the tipi might feel quite similar to a conventional home because the cooling draft neutralizes the other warmth goodies of the RMH (the convective heat of the mass, and radiant barrel). But then again, maybe it does feel different. It's comparison that's hard to make. I think a better comparison would be "conventionally heated home vs RMH heated home" since a tipi is too different of a space for fair comparison.

The other thing to consider for "temperature comfort" in the tipi is lifestyle. I can only speak for myself, but I find that my experience of "temperature comfort" is not as binary living in the tipi (or tent) as it in living in a house (or some structure with low draft and high insulation). Living in an environment that promotes and/or requires lots of outdoor activity means that I just get used to the temperature outside more so than the temperature indoors (during the day/daylight hours) (at least this week while the outdoor temperatures have been quite tolerable just hovering around freezing). So, when I do come inside, I am often overdressed for the indoor temperature; or I've been active outside to a point where my body is warm at freezing temperatures, so when I come in to an environment that's even 10 degrees warmer, it takes some time for me to readjust to a new temperature comfort. It's been a very relative experience, comfort-wise.

But despite all the fluctuating perceptions of "comfortable", I do find that by evening when I'm working from a sedentary position, 65F (18C) is the air temperature that I'm comfortable with. And I should note that that's the temperature in the centre of the tipi. The tipi's temperature varies from place to place based on distance from the barrel. My body, seated on the bench, is always a little further away from the barrel than the thermometer, so the air where I am will be cooler, but I'm also receiving conductive heat from the bench.

And this brings me to a point where Derick and I have different perceptions of the effect of conductive heat on overall body warmth. When one is in touch with a conductive form of heat, one can generally stay quite warm; Derick thinks sitting on the warm bench brings profound warmth to the body overall, and I think the effect is less so. I can sit on the warm bench and be warmed on my bottom, but I need more radiant heat to keep my fingers warm-- sitting on the bench doesn't always cut it for me.


So, "temperature comfort". Fluctuating. Relative. Personal.
Hard to compare.

Although I'm building my RMH in a split level basement I share the same problems you have illustrated here in the tipi/RMH forum. My house circa 1865 has two foot thick uninsulated stone and cob basement walls. I super insulated most of the basement with 3" foam board in steel studs, except... except... except for one room, one lousy uninsulated utility room!! Lemme tell ya... No excess water but typical no water proofing either-- dampness. So, the old stone walls suck heat. Add to it, one section of wall under an entryway is exposed to the outdoor air. This wall is even "suckier." The upper two stories are layered with polyethylene under the sheetrock--super tight. I mention this to explain the super draft I get on the RMH-- no upstairs infiltration to create a competing chimney which would cause back drafts, but I digress...

When the RMH in the basement gets sucking air and warming things up, holes I thought I had insulated begin drawing air in, cooling things off. Experience is showing that the closer I get to eliminating the holes the more evident the remaining holes become, like mini jet streams. Oi vay!! That said, I can only imagine a tipi. I'm guessing you might be running it more like a radiant steel box wood stove and likely muttering at all that thermal mass that it may not be the heat sink you expected it ought to be. Logic struck me like a slap to the head when I looked at the cross area of the uninsulated stone walls and the cross area of my bench. Now my thermal mass doesn't appear so massive. So, after I hit the post button on this reply I'm out to frame 3" celotex over the outside stone wall and frame inside the utility room. THEN, maybe I can crack open that bottle of champagne.

Thomas, what an experience you have. You seem like quite the do-er! and yes, your issues seem to be quite similar to what's going on in the tipi. I hope your draft is lightened very soon.

Tipi Betterment: Longevity and Hospitality

The tipi project has been going on for over a year now at Wheaton Labs. The rocket mass heater, designed by Ernie and Erica Wisner, has proven to be a feature that has brought a good deal of comfort to the space. It's been highly effective in keeping the place warm, serves as a cook-top, is great for seating, lounging, sleeping, and the thing just looks great. And the tipi design, this time-tested nomadic home, is one that has been excellent for this project: it works well with the RMH, is easy and fast to erect, and is beautiful to live in. Not to mention it is relevant both historically and contemporarily to Montana.

Tony and Emily were the first couple to live in the tipi. They spent over a year in this space, staying over through some of the coldest days of winter last year. They put a lot of time and effort into making the tipi a good home. Their RMH exploration, several stages of cob bench building, planting of the surrounding sunscoop berm, building a firewood shed, as well as a nearby bee hut are just some of the efforts that they brought to the space. As home-dwellers, they were also able to pick-up on the fine details of what's needed for a comfortable home; They assembled buckwheat hull mattress and cushions, put together an ozan, and shared their comfort tips with the permies community and the upcoming tipi-dwellers, Derick and I.


At this point the space is pretty well perfect. Derick and I found that functionally, the place is great. Aesthetically, the place is great. Environmentally, the place is great.

Now, is it time that Wheaton Labs could possibly host some visitors here? What do you think? Would you like to stay at the tipi?

As it turns out, Paul would LOVE for you to stay in the tipi.


But we want to host you well. So, we'd like to put a little more effort into the space and see if we can come up with some design plans that will make this place very hospitable. In the coming posts I'll give you a little tour of some of the dead-fantastic features of the tipi, but I'll also show you the things that need some tweaking in order to get the tipi guest-ready. We're thinking RMH adjustments, flooring, canvas preservation, rain diversion, vestibule, outdoor living space, and more! Some of the followers of this thread are quite familiar with the space already and have already made great suggestions for betterment. If there's anything you'd like to see, please let me know. We're now looking to go the drawing table with these suggestions, and new ones that come about so we can have a solid plan about what changes/additions can start happening.

Stay tuned.

Bryce and Val came by and took a couple of pictures.

This one is Olenka sitting on the rocket mass heater.

The second is the snow and ice outside. Olenka made a beautiful non-slip walkway. I think the nylon thing on top of the tipi has to go now.

Ok, so here's the first thing we're looking to address at the tipi:

Rain diversion
Tipis are designed to mostly keep rain out of the interior, with the exception of precipitation that comes in through the top hole where the poles protrude. Rain comes in through this opening, and runs down the tipi poles and continues down to the ground, all without having dripped in the centre. No rain on the home-dwellers. In the chance that there is a drip, it's likely caused by a notch in the pole, or some sort of disturbance in the water flow's path, which causes the rain to drip down from notch on the pole before it reaches the ground. In this case, the pole can simply be rotated until a smooth side of the pole is facing down. At this point the rain should continue down along the smooth pole until it reaches the ground.

The tipi at Wheaton Labs is a little different in that the hole at the top of the tipi is much larger than that of a traditional tipi. Here, our vertical exhaust pipe runs up alongside one of the tipi poles, and exits at the top through the same hole as the poles. The large, round stove pipe leaves more gaps around it than the smaller diametered wooden tipi poles, so the canvas is not as tightly fitted to seal off gaps as with a traditional tipi. This means that more water comes in than usual, and not all the water is diverted to the poles. (See photos- tipi hole from interior)

Tony and Emily installed a rain cap atop the tipi poles. It is made of one piece of rip-stop nylon, draped over all the tipi pole tips, and secured to the ground by four strings pegged to the ground. This rain cap was fairly effective in stopping rain from entering the tipi, but unfortunately it recently gave out.

We are now contemplating different design possibilities for the rain catcher. At a recent meeting we had, the indoor rain catcher was the favourite. It's a rectangle of canvas that hangs on an angle just below the top hole of the tipi. The rain enters the tipi, falls straight down and hits the fabric, which by its angle diverts the water to two runners that make contact with the tipi poles. Once the water hits the pole, it runs down just as is the traditional design. (tipi raincatcher photo courtesy of a link Miles provided early on in this thread) (See photo) (indoor drip strip)

Right now I am researching ways to make this indoor rain catcher- particularly scouting rain resistant fabric options. Jocelyn suggested oil soaked or beeswax treated cloth. I'll be making a test of this. Does anyone have any experience with weatherproofing a piece of fabric in a permies-friendly way?

Overall, any thoughts on tipi rain diversion? Experiences? Suggestions? Wishes?

Olenka

My understanding (and experience) has been the most tightly woven fabric itself is relatively "water proof" as long as it hangs in free air and nothing touches it. Think tent. The stitching is _not_ water proof and that's where waterproofing applications can prevent drips. Oiled canvas is used when the fabric will be abraded and/or touches various things (like a persons body or a trucker's load, etc) during normal use - or for protection against "solid water" washing over. The inner rain block sounds interesting - and the system to get it up there and hang it may be even more "interesting". <g>


Cheers

Rufus

If i remember correctly... i thought i read that a great simple cover was a basic frame shaped rawhide? Like build a simple frame to cover your tipi hole, take a fresh skinned or properly resoaked hide big enough, use the raw hide to cover the frame, lash or tack onto the frame.
I would imagine you could fasten it much like your previous rain shielding. Probably a bit of finagling to figure out what is the "just right" way to set it.

You might find that as the rain runs down the poles it will pool and drip from the ropes that are holding up the liner, or any other ropes that circle the poles. Natives had a neat little system for keeping the water flowing. They would insert little sticks between the ropes and the poles, on the underside. (As the water runs along the underside of the poles.) The sticks create a tiny channel under the ropes for the water to run through.

I am still wondering if the stack could be positioned to end inside the lodge, as high up as possible. The cover could then be closed a lot tighter around the "crows nest" so a smaller opening for the entrance of rain would be formed. I think that any harmful fumes would still exit as there would still be small openings up there. The smoke flaps could also be manipulated if more venting was needed. When the RMGH is not in use the flaps could be closed tight and help save some heat, Although as you have already said , maybe not much.

OK , be on the lookout for a couple of Tipi books coming to the Gapper love address.

Olenka Kleban wrote:

And this brings me to a point where Derick and I have different perceptions of the effect of conductive heat on overall body warmth. When one is in touch with a conductive form of heat, one can generally stay quite warm; Derick thinks sitting on the warm bench brings profound warmth to the body overall, and I think the effect is less so. I can sit on the warm bench and be warmed on my bottom, but I need more radiant heat to keep my fingers warm-- sitting on the bench doesn't always cut it for me.

Ankles, wrists and ears, at least for me, determine how I feel. Our outside temp here is from 3 to 8C these days and I am finding my long pants a bit warm, but short sleeves fine. I do wear sock cuffs on my wrists and find the back of my hand needs to stay warm. But the fingers in gloves make my fingers cold, open is better. It seems to take about 30 to 45 min. for my fingers to figure out they need to have more blood flow and then they stay warm on there own.

How warm do you (both of you) dress inside? (just for interest sake)

This is an image of the indoor raincap that we were dreaming of here at the Lab. It comes this site that Miles posted early on in this thread: https://simplydifferently.org/Tipi

And here's a picture of a January 8am upward gaze in the tipi.

Rufus, that is some great feedback. It's usually best to keep things simpler when you can, and it sounds like the beeswax and/or oil could be gratuitous if the right fabric is used in the first place. Thank you.

Kadence, I like your idea. I didn't post a picture of the pipe projecting out of the tipi from the outside so it's hard to gauge from the internet, but I think the hide would have to be rather large in order for it to be big enough to cover the crow's nest and vertical exhaust pipe. I'll have a look at the tipi tomorrow with this idea in mind, see if it's viable for us.

Miles, I will bring up the idea about shortening the exhaust just a bit at our next iteration meeting. I do like the idea of just being able to close up the crow's nest tighter-- it's an idea that brings this tipi closer to the original design-use of a tipi. And the use of the smoke flaps would be good- we currently do not use them at all, and it could be a good way to play with air circulation in there.

Miles, done and done just two days ago.

another view

lots of constant tension

And Miles- thank you for sending some reading!!! Very exciting!!!

Going back through all the pictures my impression is that the ideal arrangement would be to have the stove pipe go through a tent chimney collar far enough down so that it does not disrupt the symmetry of the poles. Then the top could be cinched tight.

Hans, yes, this is a good idea. It reminds me of the set-up for tipis that are equipped with a wood stove. The smoke flaps are held in the open position, the exhaust pipe comes out through that open space, and a collar is installed to close-up the space around the pipe.

One concern is the intricacy that a collar would bring to the canvas and its ability to deal with precipitation. Vast stretches of undisturbed canvas are best, and where stitching and hemming is needed, it is kept to a minimal, and stitched in a way that the accumulating rain can be guided downward toward the ground. A collar, with its stitching around the neck and the places where it meets the rest of the tipi canvas, would collect rain and snow in its details. I'm thinking, and I might be wrong, but I'm thinking this might make a cold cap in the vertical exhaust, making it hard to get the RMH going. At least this is the experience that I have taken away from the "Emergency quick and small batchbox for the 400 sq ft wofati (0.7)" thread, and I may have misunderstood the complexity of the issue. :S

Hard to know what would happen, but worth the consideration, and maybe even a test of it.

Len! That's good and relevant interest.

You also made me realize that I have not mentioned this in the thread yet: I am now the sole tipi steward. Derick was not able to return after our holiday back home in December, so it's just me. But he calls me just about everyday, so it often feels like he's right by me.

This week has been very very mild for January (at least what I know January to be like with the lake effect weather of Southern Ontario). Yesterday's lunchtime cooking got the tipi interior to 70F (21C), meanwhile outside it was closer to 50F (10C) outside. I was down to a t-shirt, pants, and bare feet. For most days though, my winter uniform in and around the tipi is: Bluntstones, a good pair of socks, thin long-johns, quilted overalls, a t-shirt, a wool sweater, and a wool head kerchief. The sweater and head kerchief go on and off with temperature fluctuations and activity levels.

I'll pay more attention to my ankles, wrists, and ears now! Plus, I think my nose is another personal harbinger that the rest of my body is about to get too cold.

Thomas,

I know your post was days ago, but I have a bit more of a response for you today than I did last week. I quickly relayed your described insulation and "jet-stream" draft situation to Erica Wisner when she was here over the past weekend, and she gave some very good advice: When you insulate, start from the top of your home and work your way down. Perhaps you have already done this, but she said sometimes it's the gaps in the attic that make the draft more dramatic. I now keep this idea in mind when I address heat-trapping in the tipi.

Ok, here's another tipi topic:

Vestibule
The tipi currently has a vestibule. Tony and Emily put it up, and Derick and I found it to be quite useful. It acts as an airlock, so that the opening and closing of the tipi door does not drastically effect the rest of the tipi temperature. It also calms the overall feeling of draft in the tipi as the door is a draft entry-point. It is also a nice place to undress from heavty winter-wear upon entering the tipi. I also use it as my winter 'fridge'- the temperature in the vestibule is noticeably cooler than the rest of the tipi while the RMH is running.

The vestibule space is created by a canvas curtain which divides the circular living space of the tipi. The curtain is made of a large sheet of canvas doubled over a rope that runs between two tipi poles. The rope is fastened at a height of about 9 feet. I've provided a sketch of how the vestibule currently divides the floorspace of the tipi. (see sketch)

We are now considering a potential new plan for a vestibule. Paul would like to see an outdoor set-up, where the vestibule is built as an addition to the tipi. This would free-up more space in the tipi to use as living space. A downside to this kind of vestibule is that it would take away from the tipi's 'tipi-ness'. Having an outdoor additional entrance in front of the tipi would change the function and simplicity of the original design, however it would free-up more living space in the tipi.

If you have any ideas, suggestions, doodles, or about the vestibule idea, please share. Also, if you just have an opinion, please share too.

vestibule pictures

and one more.