Seeds … where to begin

Hullo there.

I’ve only posted here once before. Micro bit of backstory: went WWOOFing for several years, mostly around the midwestern United States, but peeked into the south and the desert a few times.

We (my husband basically) were blessed enough to inherit some family land down in Arkansas. Zone 8b, specifically and currently. We have no experience in this zone, and also have no experience on our OWN project. So things like … everything, really, but firstly, SEEDS … are new to me.

We are not looking to produce large amounts of stuff right away. My previous post dealt with the elderly pecan grove that’s already there, and while research for that is ongoing, I’d also like to buy seeds for our vegetable gardens now while there’s sales going on for spring. And before, I don’t know, prices skyrocket as the petropocalypse descends upon us. So I’m interested in buying seeds for when we start planting (autumn 2022, spring 2023) and possibly to store for the next year.

That all being sort of said … what US based companies do you use, and what do you trust?
(One of my favorite WWOOF farms used Johnny Seeds.)

And can anyone explain the terms open pollinated, hybrid, heirloom, relating to seeds, through the lens of permaculture? If I had to choose between organic and heirloom, or open pol, which would I and why?

I’m sure I’m opening a very large wormhole to journey down. I’ve done some searches on the forums but it’s always nice getting specific answers to your specific questions.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Our resident seed guru is Joseph Lofthouse

https://permies.com/forums/recentTopics/showTopicsByUser/172968

That should give you lots of reading.  :).  


I just retired and am moving to SD so I have been looking for new seed sources.  I found this you tube video last week. From David the good.  Read the comments, I think I found 50 new to me small seed companies.



Good luck with your seed search.   Sign up for lots of catalogs. They are wonderful Christmas wish books for cold and stormy January's.  Tom

Nora Oaks wrote:And can anyone explain the terms open pollinated, hybrid, heirloom, relating to seeds, through the lens of permaculture? If I had to choose between organic and heirloom, or open pol, which would I and why?

Heirloom: Inbred variety that has been established (stable) for 40 years or more. Will always produce the same fruit, apx same size, and so on.
Open pollinated can be a hybrid or an heirloom. It just means it's pollinated naturally rather than being pollinated by hand. An open pollinated variety is less likely to have problems introduced by male sterility.
Organic can also be hybrid or heirloom, and it can also be open pollinated. Just means it's organically grown, and that definition is definitely problematic!
Hybrid is usually a combination of two or more heirloom varieties. If they cross it in the same direction each time, they can get the same production each generation. These are usually hand pollinated, except in plants like tomatoes and beans that self pollinate.

And......
a lot of suggestions and review as to where to buy seeds on The official permies.com Seed and Plant Source Review Grid. They're mostly North America based so I haven't used many myself. If you can find any local growers with seeds to spare this would be the best perhaps!

I'll add another point on hybrid seeds. These crosses won't come true from seed saved from the plants you grow, so if you want the same plants again you normally have to either save and select for several generations, or buy the hybrid seeds again.. The parents of hybrids are generally not available to grow. Hybrids tend to be very productive, but not always suitable for home gardeners unless sown periodically, since the plants may tend to mature at the same time. Great for farmers who want to harvest all at once, or if you're into canning perhaps.

I'm going to start landracing my seeds this year. I've saved my own sporadically over the years and they always seem to do better for me than bought seeds, and having read some of the threads on here and Joseph Lofthouse's book I now understand a little more why. Some of it is the freshness of the seed of course. Seeds will lose viability the longer they are stored, some more than others. But partly, even in one generation, the seeds will have matured on plants that like my growing style and environment. By landracing - having a diverse cross-pollinating selection of different varieties that like my environment - they will change and adapt from year to year. What does well one year may do less well another year, but something else will do better in it's place. By making sure you have a selection from different plants you can get some degree of crop insurance. As Joseph says this is how our crops evolved from wild species to the productive food crops we have today. It wasn't done by scientists in a lab, but normal people growing their own food.

Nora, welcome to Permies and congratulations on the land! You're asking an excellent question.

I've experimented with a number of seed companies, but most of my ordering now is from companies in a similar growing climates as me. (For me, that's Baker Creek , based in Missouri  and Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, based in Virginia and specializing in seeds that do well in southern growing zones). There are other great companies out there, but I find that seed from parents that grew up in conditions closest to mine seem to do better/survive better. Then by saving those seeds, I seem to get the hardiest plants that are best adapted for my location.

Our own Joseph Lofthouse explains the why of seed viability and survival in his book, Landrace Gardening. He also explains how to breed seeds that are best adapted for you and your conditions.

From a permaculture perspective, open-pollinated and heirloom will give you the most predictable results. If you choose to go the landrace route, then any and all of those types (open pollinated, hybrid, and heirloom) will contribute to your personalized landrace gene pool. Again, I'm going to refer you to Joseph's book!

Of course, we all have our favorite seed vendors and you may need to do some experimenting with seed sources. I hope you'll keep us updated on what you decide and how it goes.

I regularly order from Baker Creek and Pinetree garden seeds with an occasional order from Botanical Interests.  Also ordered from a local seller on etsy when I was hunting for a tomato variety mom wanted.  I'm always looking for new and unusual varieties and most often opt for open-pollinated so I can save seeds if I desire.  I do find Baker Creek a bit higher than Pinetree but I'm on the second year of planting tomato seeds from a pack that was to contain a minimum of 25 seeds and have enough for at least another year, so guessing 50-60 seeds.  Pinetree is cheaper but usually the seed count is right-on or pretty close.  

I also pick up packs of the cheapie seeds (.20-.50) at the dollar store for stuff like bell peppers, cabbage, herbs etc.  Germination is usually excellent though sometimes you have to feel around to determine how many seeds are in a pack (the seeds at Dollar General can often have 2-3 squash or sunflower seeds while the same brand at Dollar Tree will have 12 or more).

I think the most important thing to do is find a local source for seeds. Either a company selling from all local growers or growing themselves. And find if your community has a seed exchange or seed bank. For the kind of things that grow easily here, I'll start off with seeds from companies I like and then save my own seeds from there. But for things that I want to grow and find a challenge, buying locally grown seeds makes all the difference. For example eggplants and melons are not something people grow around here (we don't have enough heat for long enough) but I kept trying (and failing) anyway until I bought seeds from a company an hour north of me and then I had success!

UprisingOrganics is my local seed source but that doesn't really help you.  When I need general all around common seeds, I like MIGardener- very affordable. And when I want to try some unique or weird things without going broke, I like Bakers Creek. I want to try DollarSeeds because they skip the fancy pretty seed packets to keep costs low and as much as I like the pretty pictures, I end up repackaging my seeds anyway so I can see what I have easier, but I haven't bought from them yet.

Thanks all for the kind words, and shout-out for my book.

If a seed company doesn't tell me which farm each packet of seed comes from, then I assume that they come from far away places like Thailand, Oregon, or China. I assume that the soils, climates, ecosystems, and farmer's habits were much different than mine.

So often, people blame themselves when crops fail to thrive. A more realistic explanation is that when you grow seeds that were produced far away in a completely different ecosystem, they are likely to fail. Just because a seed company has a nearby address doesn't mean that the seeds are local.

If you can find a seed company that is in your bio-region, and tells you that every seed was grown on their farm, or that tells you where each variety was grown, then that's the seed company that I'd recommend.

Second best would be a walk-in seed store that sells bulk seed, of varieties that they have tested to do great in your area.

Long term, the best seed you can possibly get, is that which has grown in your garden for many generations.

I'm cynical... To me, "open-pollinated" means that every scheme known to humans has been used to insure that an OP variety undergoes one more generation of detrimental inbreeding. That's why I advocate "promiscuous pollination" -- to get rid of the inbreeding.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:To me, "open-pollinated" means that every scheme known to humans has been used to insure that an OP variety undergoes one more generation of detrimental inbreeding.

I'm guessing that's why I can get the same variety from two different sources, and they produce different kinds of plants. I wondered about that.

Hi,

I’d like to recommend a YouTube channel called Roots and Refuge Farm. Jess, the lady who does most of the videos, moved to South Carolina last summer, but all her previous videos were at her Property in Arkansas, so it may help you get an idea of what will grow well for you. Plus she’s just super inspiring and a great teacher. I recommend any of her garden tour videos in particular. She also has a Facebook group called Friends of Roots and Refuge Farm.

She always used Baker Creek seeds a lot.

I am late to this thread but want to,give a library. I solicit seeds from great seed companies like Baker Creek, Seed Savers Exchange and our own High Mowing. The seeds are from the previous year and usually have good viability. We purge the collection each fall, discarding those that are past a reasonable viability rate. Some volunteers take them home to try, some seeds become compost. We also encourage folks to save donate some back to the seed library. We provide seeds to lots of gardeners and homesteaders as well as community gardens and schools. We also encourage the establishment of other seed libraries.

I absolutely LOVE Baker Creek, and not just because their germination rates for me are beyond fantastic.  How often have I decided that a pack of 10-year-old seeds cannot possibly germinate, so I'll dump the rest of the whole pack in a pot..only to end up with 20 tomato seedlings!
Whereas other companies are hit and miss with germination, and the seeds that come up might be a bit wimpy, wonky, or waning.

Yes, it costs more.  But I'm also a sucker for all the bizarre colors and latest varieties.  Plus they do fundraisers from time to time, and my feeling philanthropic outweighs my guilt for buying EVEN MORE SEEDS...(I'm sure NOBODY HERE CAN RELATE TO THAT!!!)  haha

But I also love them because of the many reviews, which help me to make choices beyond the descriptions (which are all--let's face it--glowing and positive.)

Local seeds here are grown on the outer islands, which have much higher rainfall and high elevations, putting them into subtropical territory, so local seeds don't always do a great job (although yes, I try to buy local varieties too, because especially with what the University of Hawaii develops, they can better withstand some of our neverending diseases and pests that never freeze or dry up, due to such mild weather.)

So I try out new varieties often by reading reviews by people who live in states with tropical climates, or with hot, humid summers and huge pest pressure, like in the South, or with alternating drought and hurricanes, like in Florida.

Although I also have to take into consideration that where I am, some people have loamy soil, some have sandy beach soil, and I have heavy clay.  So that's a factor as well.  Rainfall and weather patterns differ substantially here, too, so what grows well in a valley, with lots of rain, won't necessarily thrive in near-desert conditions in other areas.

That's why I love reading the reviews, because if someone reports that everything else got powdery mildew, but this pumpkin sailed through, that gets my attention.  Or if a variety matures so fast, that people way up north grow it, that may work for me too, because all may be fine...until the next hurricane or storm system.  So the faster it grows, the better...stuff like that.

I also buy based on reviews or videos from people in other parts of the world in a similar latitude, with likely a similar climate.  In my case, from places like Indonesia, India, the Philippines, and Thailand.  If the plants can survive their heat and humidity, which is even worse than ours, they will likely be fine here.

As you grow more, you'll see what issues pop up for you, and use reviews to pick varieties based on that.  For example, when someone mentions their temperatures were so hot, but a tomato variety still produced, that gets my attention.  Because we often cannot produce tomatoes due to our night time temperatures not getting cold enough, and definitely having daytime temperatures be too hot, for tomato flowers (they'll abort.)

You'll find out which diseases and pests are issues in your area, and reviews that mention surviving those things are worth noting for you to try.

Other companies I enjoy:  Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, Seed Savers Exchange, Victory Seeds (lots of old varieties that tend to get forgotten), and Asian Garden 2 Table (although the germination can be kind of bad sometimes, I've noticed, she sells a huge variety of Asian vegetables, which match the climate, culture, and palates of Hawaii very well.  Unfortunately, some of those seeds are treated, and they aren't listed as treated or not, so keep that in mind.)

Nichol's Garden Nursery and Strictly Medicinal Seeds are wonderful for herb seeds, especially those rarer ones, and stuff most people have never heard of.

I would also encourage, especially if you have room to grow, planting seeds/cuttings from food you buy from local farmers or markets.  Often those have been passed around and are like landraces, without you having to do the seed saving.  If you end up with a new variety (for example, if you plant seeds from citrus fruits and get something new and unique), you could turn that into a business, too.

One tip:  get on the email lists for the seed companies, because many have sales at the end of the season.  You can get highly discounted seeds.  (works great for me, since our best growing season starts in the fall, just after most others have stopped...but also because I like to get a lot of seeds for some things that the slugs and snails decimate.  It gets very pricey when you lost 50-75% of what you plant to slugs, snails, rodents, and weather damage.  And you can try out some things you didn't want to pay full price for, too...assuming they haven't sold out.)

Companies often do seasonal or holiday promos (like Mother's Day, Black Friday, etc.)

And I like to keep old seed catalogs, because some companies do not print variety info on the packages...so I have to look it up in a catalog.  Or I have older seeds that aren't listed in this year's catalog, so I find that info in an old catalog, or one from another company.  Lastly, having colorful photos helps me to identify varieties when, for example, I've not labelled things properly, or the tag breaks off, or pots with seedlings get blown around by the wind, and tags and seedlings are thrown everywhere, leaving me to try to figure them out after they've grown and matured.

Stores may discount old seeds at the end of the calendar year or in the spring, just as they get new seeds.  But keep tabs on the quality--one vendor's seeds are no bargain, because even at half price, when nothing germinates, that's no deal.

When you trade seeds or get them from others locally, there is the fun of seeing what comes up, because often they'll tell you it's just, "okra," or "pumpkin," with no variety name or other information to go by.  If you're lucky, it'll do well for you, taste good, AND you like it, too...be sure to save seeds from it, if so!

In two years, I expect to see you start a post saying, "Hello, my name is _____, and I'm a seedaholic!"

I'm in West Virginia and my favorite companies are Southern Exposure Seed Exchange--because they're located in a similar climate, thus favor varieties that can tolerate disease rather than those that can survive drought, or mature in a brief growing season. BUT the thing about choosing a company in a similar location is that they mostly have growers in a wide area, sometimes on the other side of the continent.
--And Pinetree, which is in Maine and thus not a good source for peanuts or collards but they have low prices, pretty good info, a good mix of hybrid and OP.
And my new fave, Fedco, also in Maine, with a focus I like (and a wonderful catalog with cute illustrations everywhere) and a big selection--they also sell trees and bulbs.
I prefer open pollinated seeds for the most part, so I can save seed if I choose to, but I figure heirlooms may be inferior to more recent breeding, and I don't care about organic seed. I care a lot about organic growing--my own or in produce I buy--but I figure the seed is such a tiny part of the ultimate crop that it doesn't matter. Although one reason to buy organic produce, besides healthier food, is that you're supporting ecologically responsible farmers, and this applies to those whose product is seeds. Also in the case of plants subject to disease--peppers and tomatoes--local seed may be more likely to transmit a pathogen than seed produced out west where it doesn't rain in summer.
Carol Deppe's books are full of good information including about seeds. I just finished rereading Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties--this differs from other seed saving books in that the focus is not on trying to preserve a variety unchanged, but developing a strain that suits your own conditions, desires and proclivities (like unusual colors in fruit or flowers). You CAN even work with hybrids, but it takes several generations to stabilize the new variety. She points out in the Resilient Gardener (I think) that commercial seed growers don't go to the trouble she recommends (like selecting for the male parent too) so an old preserved strain may not be what it used to be.
Finally, store your seeds in well sealed containers in a dry, cool, dark place. Some will keep for years, and if they're fully dry you can freeze them and keep them for many more years. So there, you're justified in indulging in extra seeds you might not plant this year! What if civilization falls apart, which looks increasingly likely,  and ordering seed is no longer possible?
And to the OP--I'm simmering with jealousy over your pecan grove.