Spring and Mystery Basement Pipes Mystery

I have several disconnected pieces of information and looking for help figuring out how to proceed.

--I have deeded access to an "aqueduct" on the nearby road
--there seems to be no aqueduct at that location but there is a spring on that road (feeds a tiny pond), and I just learned there are pipes to the neighbor's basement and she has a pump she doesn't use, and pipes to a third location (a restaurant, now defunct).  
--I've been told that the restaurant and our house were on the same water system probably
--There are Mystery Pipes in the basement of our barn.  There are two branches off these Mystery Pipes: they go to a dead-end opening in the basement and up on the first floor of the barn.  These openings are about 5/8".
--the origin of these two pipes is a single half-inch one buried in a bit of old insulation/mouse-nest-material in a wooden box that I've pried open, and appears to go down into the ground
--the spring is about the same elevation as our barn, probably not much higher
--there is a thing that maybe looks like a pump, or mabye it's the thing that they made before they invented the J trap, I'm not sure, next to the Mystery Pipes' origin pipe in the basement.  A cylinder with a pipe going in the bottom and one coming out the top.  It has no wires or anything, no places to attach wires or anything.    And its pipes are much wider (about 1") than the Mystery Pipes.  So it may be irrelevant completely.

Overall intention: I'd love to have spring water to feed my plants and animals, free of radon, and maybe even drink if it's potable.  I'd love to have water that can fill a pond

I would like to test out this thing and see if water can be pumped out of it, but it seems like it couldn't have had separate pumps on each branch of the Mystery Pipe, that makes zero sense.  And if there wasn't a single pump then it might have been gravity-fed...in which case did the pipes underground corrode or break? did the spring dry up? get clogged at its source?

I wish I could ask the original owners but they are all dead and their descendants either don't know or haven't responded to a letter.

If i did want to try to pump this, is there a way to plug the other end of the two-pipe branch thingy, and is that sufficient or do you need to cut off the extra branch and then plug?  Thanks!

Some ideas;
- Photos would be an immense help
- that thicker inset pipe may have replace a inbuilt pump.
- What are you calling an 'aqueduct", they normally are an open channel supplying water to a city?
- Is one pipe a supply line and another a discharge line?

John C Daley wrote:Some ideas;
- Photos would be an immense help
- that thicker inset pipe may have replace a inbuilt pump.
- What are you calling an 'aqueduct", they normally are an open channel supplying water to a city?
- Is one pipe a supply line and another a discharge line?

Thanks.

I think that’s the mystery, why would there be a discharge pipe and when is an aqueduct not an aqueduct?

It’s worded “aqueduct “ in the deed and the town records.  Best I can tell it’s actually referring to these pipes coming off the spring.

I will try to post photos next. For now I just have this one, the end of the branch of pipe and a piece of rebar for size comparison.

From a general Google search;
What does aqueduct mean in US history?
aqueduct. noun. a pipe or passage used for carrying water from a distance. civilization.

From; Merriam and Webster
Definition of aqueduct
1a: a conduit for water
especially : one for carrying a large quantity of flowing water
b: a structure for conveying a canal over a river or hollow
2: a canal or passage in a part or organ

I wonder how old your land title is?
I think the usage of aqueduct is interesting.

The original my be an aquifer.  Discharge aqueducts bring subsurface water from aquifers to the surface and create a flow.  In outback Australia, these are being capped to increase the pressure in the  great artesian basin and reconstitute its capacity.
Some of these flows can push several metres/ feet into the air.  The pipes are often thicker steel or pottery because of the high level of chemicals in the water.

Those pipes may have been discharging something like grey water into the "aqueduct".

As a child, our town had an aqueduct and I would witness water flowing from pipes into the aqueduct. I assume with today's EPA standards most aqueducts have been abandoned as your town's aqueduct probably has been.

The wording on your deed probably gave the previous owners sometime in the past olden days access to drain their grey water into the aqueduct.

I would suggest seeking professional advice before claiming that "aqueduct" as yours.  

Thanks. Here are some photos and addl info—

My neighbor had water come in from the “spring” into pipes and a storage tank in her basement.  It worked when she moved in I think 12 years ago, but the pump quit at some point and I guess she dug a well instead (?).

The deed says “access to aqueduct supplying water to our property, the property next door, and right to maintain pipes across land owned by the S——- family and anyone it is sold to later”. Not exact quote but definitely says “supplying water to” and not draining from.

The drain looking thing is really a mystery, just like why is my dog eating alfalfa.

One more mystery pipe, this one is in the front yard by the house, not the barn, and is always filled with water even if it hasn’t rained in a while.  I tried siphoning water from it but it didn’t put out much of anything.  I might not have had enough drop in elevation though.

If this were the water table the basement would be flooded constantly, and at the moment the soil is bone dry and dusty.  So where did the mystery water come from??

One thing to consider, place a low pressure water hose into one of the pipes, probably the tallest one, and see if water bubbles out of any of the others.  If it does let it flow for a while and keep an eye out for leaks or wet spots in the areas where the pipes are underground.  Do not use high pressure or you may cause a burst in the neighbors basement or elsewhere.  I suspect if it has been years there will be dirt build up inside the pipes, low pressure back flushing may help clean out some of the build up and it will take a while to rinse things out.  If needed put a fitting on top of one of the pipes to push the water to the other, lower pipe openings.

If you have a section of smaller tubing, preferably something that wont kink or bend too easily you can use low pressure water and snake that tubing into the pipe to help flush and push through dirt build up.

Thanks Michael!  genius!

Can you go to the source of the water by the road and look for an intake pipe?  It might be muddy and yucky but if you can find a pipe and put some back pressure to it you or someone can be at the pond checking to see if muddy crud is being pushed out.  If you get lucky keep back washing until it runs clean.  Until the water lines prove themselves do not use much pressure.

As I read through this thread, I am beginning to wonder if you have an old cistern on your property.

Thanks.

Well, here's my update--after hosing water into the pipe for a count of 300, I had no backwash...and then I noticed a wet patch in the dirt floor in the corner.

The pipe that emerges from the insulation has a dead end a few inches under the soil there.  I felt all along its length to verify--it makes a 90 degree turn to the east and then stops.  

Then there were other pipes buried nearby...but this was also a decoy.

How many decoys did the C**** family have to bury here for us?? were they trying to hide their spring from the carpenter ants??  (Just to be clear that was a joke that makes absolutely no sense, I doubt that ants care about finding underground spring pipes).

Nothing in the corner of the barn either, I dug down about 8" there and near the dead-end pipe too.  I'm mystified.

I can post pics if wanted but I I doubt they will really add much to the story.  I think our next move will be either a super-stellar dowser or a metal detector, to try to locate the pipes in the area outside the barn.

The buried decoy pipe and the buried dead end, I’m pointing to it in one picture.

Found the cistern and a maintenance box / sideways culvert pipe thingamubob in the woods. I’ve tried dredging the cistern but it filled up again the next day with water and I’m going to rent equipment if I’m going to try dredging it.

Is it worth dredging? Is this cistern /spring box anything?  

What about the other thing (upslope of this cistern)??  Very confusing.  

What put you onto the 'cistern' or junction pit?
can you showus a photo of the last 2 images in the one shot to get an understanding of where they are relative to each other?
Also a map of where everything is may help also.

Wow, Joshua, your property is turning into an Oak Island mystery. Any history of pirates around there, rumours of buried treasure, say 300 years ago?

I kid, I kid.

Thanks John.  I'm not sure I understand the question.  I just went up in the woods looking for where the "aqueduct" originated and I found the cistern, it was obviously human-made.  Then i happened to see the junction pit thing a few yards away upslope and opened it up to see what was inside.  Did I answer your question?

A rough map:

P|
 |
 |               P
 |           J.                                 upslope
 |       C
 |        P
 |
 |P

| = road (at lowest eleveation; the land slopes up to the east)
C = cistern
J = junction pit (I'm assuming that word means the pipe on its side with a little pipe that goes through it so you could climb down in there to maintain the little pipe)
P = a tiny pond or swampy area with pools in it: there's one at the same water level as what the cistern returned to, so I would assume that's the water table there;  there's one upslope of the junction pit and sort of in the direction its inner little pipe is coming from; and there's one down by the road.
(There's also one on my side of the road (the west) but way north near my neighbor's, and there's a pump and a wire to the pump there to pump water up from it (she was using it for irrigation).  (It's not trespassing on my neighbor's land to go up in that woods there where that pump is).

The fact that there's a really big pond also on the west side of the pond (off the map way to the west) that is fed by _something_ is not just road runoff (which is directed into a creek), it's from a stream and the stream has to get there somehow.  I found a spot where it was running out of a culvert one time but haven't found it again recently, I have to go looking again.

The spring must cross that road somewhere, and I want to find where the pipes are buried.

I think I'll go ahead and rent that gasoline-powered pump and dredge out with a shovel what I can.  

John C Daley wrote:What put you onto the 'cistern' or junction pit?
can you showus a photo of the last 2 images in the one shot to get an understanding of where they are relative to each other?
Also a map of where everything is may help also.

PS I did look into a metal detector--but pipes buried 6' below grade won't set off a standard detector.  Then the super-expensive ones are hard to rent, the Town has one but they said it's out of their jurisdiction.  A dowser generally dowses to find water, but if the pipes are clogged somewhere and there's no water in them...

I might be able to find more of the "junction" thingies if I stomp on the ground in various places.

To top it all off the highway deopt came along and put up stakes every 100' along the road which made me nervous.  I asked what they were doing and they saidthey had a map and knew about the buried pipes, but I wasn't able to get a copy from anyone when I called.

Joshua, I had in mind a map drawn on paper, photographed and unloaded, I was surprised at the style of map you created. Well done.
Further, I have been a road designer and builder and your description of what is happening on the road makes me think a new road and drainage system may be on the cards.
Some ideas;
- check trees are not going to be cut down
- usually known water supply and stormwater drainage pipes are identified to protect them if needed during construction.
- get to know the foreman or Civil Engineer on site when you see them.
- when it feels right, ask them your questions.

Thanks John.  I don't think they're putting in much new piping under the road, it is mostly flat and they said they're just replacing culverts which are only upslope of where the spring pipes are probably located.

John C Daley wrote:Joshua, I had in mind a map drawn on paper, photographed and unloaded, I was surprised at the style of map you created. Well done.
Further, I have been a road designer and builder and your description of what is happening on the road makes me think a new road and drainage system may be on the cards.
Some ideas;
- check trees are not going to be cut down
- usually known water supply and stormwater drainage pipes are identified to protect them if needed during construction.
- get to know the foreman or Civil Engineer on site when you see them.
- when it feels right, ask them your questions.

Found more stuff farther up the hill.  The highest point pond, totally clear and without any signs of life, and another spring box that has a wire mesh over it. I could not open it.  I think the other one may have been a decoy.  Or an abandoned spring box. The strategy is weird, building a spring box not at the place where it emerges initially…maybe they weee only intending it for irrigation and animals??  

The first barn burned and the new one, with the pipes, is dated 1944. And my neighbor had been using her spring water as recently as 5 years ago.  

I pumped out the cistern.  Dredged a bunch.

There is a pipe.  1", copper, with an elbow, that rotates like a Holzer monk.

???

It dead-ends in the cistern.  It doesn't suck any that I can feel.  Assuming it is an intake pipe it would flow toward a pond-let / pool that's right next to the cistern, and it couldn't because it is way below the water table.  

Maybe it is an overflow pipe?  If that's the case, it still couldn't flow as things are now...

Maybe that pool didn't used to be there?

I figure with the amount of dredging i got done I may have dislodged a plug and maybe things are flowing again, just not visibly... I will try digging down into the barn basement a bit where that weird wet spot is and see if maybe there's a pipe buried way below grade there.  And maybe if I back-fill it from the garden hose it will unclog something??  I still have a sense I'm missing the big picture here though.

What is it that causes a spring to clog? isn't it usually that hte spring box roof gets neglected and collapses, then pine needles and sticks clog the intake pipe?  

It's hard to pump all the way to the bottom of the cistern but I'll give it another go now that I dredged out a bit more of what was in the way.  First I will see if I have a trickle of anything in my barn...but I would expect I'd be able to see at least a tiny hint of a flow if there's another pipe down in that cistern that isn't totally clogged.

Just keep doing what you are doing.  Slow and methodically.  What are the distances between locations?  You mentioned a copper pipe that turns/spins.  What diameter is the copper pipe?  It could be that the copper rotted away (is that possible with copper pipe?) but since it probably didn't shift underground you may be able to flush out any build up and get it flowing again, even with leaks.  But, if the distance isn't too far and it is fairly straight maybe, just  maybe, you could snake a 1/2" or 3/8" pex pipe through the existing pipe.  I know, slim chance but it may be an option.  If you can snake the pex into the copper pipe make marks every 5 or 10 feet and keep track of the distance.  When it stops measure out and see if you can find the bend/obstruction.
As I type this I know that for pex pipe to be flexible you will need to pump warm/hot water through it to allow it to bend and curve.  Or maybe hot air might work.  Another thought, you may be able to run a wire through the pipe that gives off a signal and you can trace the signal like the Call Before You Dig people use to locate underground utilities.  All of this is getting a bit pricey, but the actual cost of "free" water for irrigation and non-potable purposes may overcome the initial expense.
Michael

Thanks.

I’m thinking of looking up rotor router or whatever that is, to see what they do. I would rather flush from bottom up but if I can’t maybe I can snake in from above. It may be the obstruction is near the top anyway, who knows.

I found yet another pipe I think I didn’t post a picture of yet

Snaked a bit with a short snake (18”?) and got some bit of silt to float out. Water going in a tiny bit. Got another 25’ snake and will try again tomorrow, if it fits.

I had a friend who is a historical architect who was doing some work on an old creamery/ cheesemaking room in the lower level of an ancient barn in the Berkshires. They  were doing a restoration and I was amazed by the water system they had in there. It would be cool if you could find someone at a local college perhaps or someone in that kind of field to talk to about this.

I also know up in the hill town areas there are kind of public roadside springs that would have served any passersby or would be kind of "public" water for nearby residents. Some have a pipe that empties into a trough; some are less maintained. Is the "aqueduct" just that plus piping down to the three properties that share spring access rights?

This is so interesting- I really hope you get the kinks worked out or figure out how to make it work!

OK, here's an update.  I rented a pump and dredged, basically no flow happened.

I rented a generator (so $#%@#$%ing heavy and awkward to move) and tried sucking on the 1/2" brass pipe in the cistern (the holzer monk one) with a shop vac.  Also tried blowing into the cleanout pipe (th one I'd found about halfway down the hill, it took some Rust Blaster, lots of toxic fumes and grease--always use gloves with that stuff from now on Joshua!--and kicking the wrench instead of hitting it, and finally it opened!)

Next episode: I then tried making a bypass with a siphon to the cleanout from the cistern.  The siphon really worked, and the flow was strong, but the cleanout pipe filled up and didn't drain down.  It took overnight for it to drain out, so somewhere between an hour and 20 hours.  

So stuff is still not flowing anywhere, so there's some obstruction below the cleanout pipe.  And an obstruction above it, since nothing is really flowing _into_ the cleanout without some help.  

(What help?  Well, that's an odd thing: when I blew air into the cleanout with the shop vac it started burbling water and the water level rose up to near the top of the cleanout pipe...so I thought I was done...)

My next move is to buy a $20 pump that gets really good reviews from everyone, weirdly, and can fit 2" pipes or sink drains or whatever.  It's like the only thing everyone on the internet can agree about.  One review said "better than marriage counseling."  Anyway, I just need a plunger small enough to ft on the top of the cleanout.  I think if I pour some water in there and then plunge I have the best chance of moving stuff either uphill or downhill of it.  

The well guy said that if it's gravity fed then the pipes should clear out of silt after a while naturally.  But it doesn't seem to be happening.

I tried the snake (25') and couldn't get around the bend, neither in the holzer monk mini pipe nor in the big round cleanout pipe.

I tried digging upslope of the cleanout pipe to see if I can at least locate the aquiferous pipe (I'll call the actual spring pipes aquiferous, to distinguish from the cleanout), but got interrupted before I got down far enough.

I did get some intel from a neighbor about hte second spring box--it's probably a newer one that was put in by the restaurant to try to save their business.  If I could find the owner (a corporation) I'd contact them about buying their water rights...but they're a ghost.  Everyone parks there on their parking lot, even with the "no trespassing sign."  The ENTIRE fleet of highway vehicles is parked there right now.  You've got steamrollers, you've got a street sweeper, you've got the giant yellow guys with the slanty conveyer belt on them, you could start a whole highway deptartment collection.

The fact that the siphon works and has so much power does encourage me--if I had to (if traffic all stopped or I could get a call back from the highway dept about running a pipe across the road for a few days) I could run a pipe across the road to my land temporarily and fill the pond for the season.  Or run it over the power lines even and from there to the land.

The siphon is so interesting, because I had to cobble it together from different width pipes (1/2" ID and 3/4" ID) it has some air leaks and so it "breathes," it goes strong for about 10 seconds then wheezes and subsides.  It's like tides going in and out maybe.  

I'm trying to think if there are any other clues.  THe other weird thing is that the newer, bigger, upper springbox is still not at the origin, I found the topmost spring pool and it is crystal clear and obviously that's where the spring begins.  But they put a spring box somewhere else.  

Does anyone know how they lay out pipes? is it in the valley or inside the mound of dirt?  I'm thinking if I were laying out a spring I'd dig the trench, then put the pipe in, then mound up more dirt over it at the end.

I'm thinking today that that cleanout is probably for the newer spring, rather than the old cistern.  

It's a wider pipe, it has concrete around its base instead of just old portland cement stone wall, and it didn't make any bubbles show up in the old cistern when I blew in it.  

I'm looking into acoustical leak detection (thanks chatgpt), gonna try blowing some air into the pipe to make a louder sound than ultra-slow-leak sound if I can...the cheapest devices may be enough.  Or maybe running a charge on the pipe so that it becomes a mild magnet (finally those fence energizer have a real use!) and then seeing if I can detect the magnetic pulse with something (metal detector? I think that's how they work).  

The first point raises the question though, if the new spring is empty of water where is its blockage?? where does its pipes go to? the restaurant? if so, since that restaurant is very abandoned, can I get their permission and hook into their water supply? it's no skin off their backs.  I have PO box to write to the company that owns it.

Power Plungered it today. (Power Plunger is the one thing everyone on the internet can agree on -- 5 stars).  But it didn't really work on a 2" diameter pipe, it slipped a bit.

And the 1/2" pipe since the fitting at the elbow is loose will take 2 people.

I am now pretty sure it's 2 spring pipe systems that would explain why no bubbles came through into the cistern when I blew air in the cleanout...

I'm thinking I could use a CB radio to make the pipe act as an antenna, does anyone who knows physics know if the grounding would be too much or if it can indeed make a detectable signal?  

update: metal detector that supposedly would work down to 6' (from rental place in Greenfield) just got a bunch of false positives, I dug down where it was beeping about and found nothing.

I tried hooking up the energizer I have (a tiny solar one, since the big solar one is STILL not working--see my Everything You Never Knew about Electric Fencing and Were Afraid to Ask thread), and the metal detector did not detect any more the metal that was right in front of it.  (Cannot connect to printer?  It's right there!  _I_ can connect to printer, why the bloody hell can't you? ^p print ^p ^p ^p...)

So the pipe locator idea seems necessary--this is basically what I was thinking, use the pipe as an antenna to broadcast to a receiver that can just beep to tell you if it's near the signal, and beep more the nearer it is.

To rent the $6000 pipe locator from a city 1:15 drive from here (and do that drive 4 times in 2 days) plus rental cost of $120/day didn't seem worth it, when I could buy a cheap one for $50 that I can return if it doesn't work as advertised and should be shipped here the next day.  I don't usually go for the instant gratification shipping but in this case it seems the better choice in time, transport cost, and money.  It had a number of long, enthusiastic reviews from people who were initially skeptical, and though they were only searching for cables (pipe locators and cable locators are basically always sold as the same thing and more often used for cables), it is supposed to reach a depth of 3-4 feet.

Hey Joshua, I am curious what metal detector you rented? All the surveyors in my area have a Schonstedt in their truck, which they use to find buried survey monuments.

Have you found anything with your locator yet?

Thanks for bumping this thread Jeremy.  It is very much time for an update.

So don't judge--the solution next proved to be Amazon.  

Yes, that's right, I ordered a cheap $50 pipe locator from amazon (I can dig up the brand name if anyone needs it, and better still I'll lend you the darn thing if you're in the area, or maybe I'll consider an honor-system permie lending library of it domestically).  Free shipping, free returns, what did I have ot lose?

It worked!   YEs, you hook the transmitter to one exposed end of the pipe, then the receiver squeals louder when you're above the pipe.  

I could locate pipe number one (it dead-ended about 30' from the old cistern).  I located the newer pipe, by putting the transmitter on the "cleanout" pipe.  The newer pipe went down toward the highway and then ... split when it was near the highway...and dead-ended in the middle of the highway...both prongs of it.  

(I thought, aha!  I'll hook to the other weird pipe in the field's corner...but that turns out to be something perforated, for drainage puproses.)

And i called the Highway Dept and whinged at them.  I suspect it was the Butler with a pipe in the middle of Rt xx!(and a highway repair truck accomplice).  But they denied culpability and said the regular trucks that go over there with freight are heavier than the Highway trucks.  it's my responsiblity as a private pipe-owner to defend my pipes from the highway department.  Grumble grumble.

He did say I could resleeve my pipe legally, wihtout having to wait for the five-year grace period after construction or re-grinding and re-paving 50' in either direction.

So I just needed to find the pipe and re-sleeve it...problem is, I can't access it from the other side of the road, only from this side where there's a nice drop.  And on this side of the road--I can't locate it!  As I said, the trail goes cold in the middle of the road.  

So...I have tried to poke something metal into the ground to hit the pipe somewhere on my side of the road (and get the process started to use my cheap pipe locator) but it is hard digging, and I'm not quite sure whether it's in the dip or in the mound.  THe dip has rocks, so so so many rocks, even a a lot of rocks for a New England rock band, and the mound alongside it is rock-free but also pipe-free.  I've gone down 3', and I can't really dig much deeper than that with my short shovel.  So I have to do a second hold and terrace it and I've gotten off on other projects.

So, if someone had a Schonsett thing in my area and wanted to help a permie out I'd be most appreciative.  It sounds kind of like a kind of dog that can scent the pipe and dig it up and has floppy ears.  I'm going to check the price on it too.

At a thousand bucks the schonny isn't cheap. But it is effective. Your best bet might be to make friends with a local surveyor and see if he will let you borrow one. Barring that, $100 bucks could probably get you a few hours with one of his field crew members on a Saturday.

At this point it probably makes sense to call your state's Dig Safe program and get a professional utility locator out there. The phone number is 811. If you find your pipe and have it professionally re-sleeved they will need to call the locators anyways. And if the locator finds a new pipe crossing the point where your pipe ends, that might answer some questions. The Dig Safe program is free to you, it is paid for by the utilities to protect their assets.

Thanks jeremy.  it's not covered under Dig Safe because it's a private pipe.  The locators they have on file do do private pipes though.  I have reached out to one and didn't hear back, and have just now emailed a second one.  

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:At a thousand bucks the schonny isn't cheap. But it is effective. Your best bet might be to make friends with a local surveyor and see if he will let you borrow one. Barring that, $100 bucks could probably get you a few hours with one of his field crew members on a Saturday.

At this point it probably makes sense to call your state's Dig Safe program and get a professional utility locator out there. The phone number is 811. If you find your pipe and have it professionally re-sleeved they will need to call the locators anyways. And if the locator finds a new pipe crossing the point where your pipe ends, that might answer some questions. The Dig Safe program is free to you, it is paid for by the utilities to protect their assets.