lowest $$ driveway/parking with minimal equip.. geocells? urbanite?

So i'm in the first stages of trying to make the "move rural" plan hit reality and working through my To Do list one by one.

Absolute step one is to turn totally raw land into something I can drive on and park things on, no other work can even happen until that does.  I need the absolute minimum cost to make this work even if it's not the perfect solution.  But if it's something that could be upgraded instead of totally replaced later that's better. (like in weight capacity)


So I need some advice...

How are the simplest/cheapest roads normally made?  (not counting dirt which I can't drive onto year round) Assuming it's usually just gravel, over something intended as a compacted weight supporting underlayment, after you dig/scrape down into the earth 12 inches or something right?  (I have no books or guides feel free to suggest one)

I was the first one to ever even bring up geocells on this site by what I can tell, but people with more experience than me suggested I may be misinformed about the ability of it to bear the same weight with less thickness.  I haven't yet re-researched it but half the thickness would mean twice the parking area which is useful...

I had heard the cheapest material (that some people were using in foundations) was crushed urbanite (ie reclaimed rubble from city roads crushed down smaller) but don't know if that would be an 'even cheaper' option, or if its saving so little it doesn't matter.

My assumption is that any road and parking area is going to be enough needed gravel to need some 10-15 cubic yard gravel truck for efficiency/hauling yourself even in a one ton just means more trips and is stupid.  But i'm wondering how much area I can cover with just ONE or at most two such deliveries so I can plan accordingly.

How much money I can try to save by DIY-ing some things vs just hiring someone to prepare the base under the gravel, it might not be worth it for a 'very first' project if I dont have the farm tractor/skid steer to begin.  

I'm trying to avoid this costing $10,000 alone which wouldn't matter on a conventional 200k suburban house when i'm trying to buy a few acres and build a tiny house all in for as much under 40-50k all in as possible, maybe even 30k.  What would you do?

We've been using wood chips for our (temporary) access and parking area. A local arborist will sometimes drop off a truckload for us. If we get a heavy rain (1.5+ inches) it gets a little squishy but generally holds up under light rainfall.

Are geocells pretty much the same as mechanical concrete?

William Bronson wrote:Are geocells pretty much the same as mechanical concrete?

Yes, in different fashions, any cellular containment so that things dont move side to side or squish around.  But I clearly don't understand enough about it, I just know OF it.

My original reading suggested it would support twice the load at the same thickness or let you use half the thickness of a roadbed for the same weight.  I'm still positive i've read that in more than one place.  But other posters in my other topic disagreed...  else that seems an easy way to halve the delivered gravel.

https://www.geotextile-fabrics.com/products/geogrid-and-geocell.html
 some people strictly use the terms ie saying a geocell means a polymer mesh only, other places are less specific.  I'm using it as a general term and concept.  And DIY options amounting to the same are also an option including things like used tires.

I'm not wanting to fixate on one exact solution or another, just to open the floor to general construction of my overall goal - minimum total cost, reduced deliverables (thinner road if possible for weight), DIY-ability when possible, no or minimum use of any kind of heavier equipment - something I can hand-handle and lay out as opposed to needing a skidsteer make all the difference.  Cheap cheap cheap. : P

To me, the absolute cheapest driveway is just a dirt road.

Here is the Good, Bad & Ugly of a geocell driveway:

Brian, as a Civil Engineer who has designed and built many roads and laneways, I can say that there is no simple inexpensive system that will work anywhere.
There are so many parameters I cannot list them all.
It may be better to either research what you want, or give some details of the type of soil, area, rainfall, climate
for the area you want to create access.

I was looking into chainlink fencing as a traction matt and just discovered that grass protection mesh is a thing.
It's a durable plastic mesh that is layed down over grass that has been cut short.
The grass regrows through the mesh, the roots entwined with it, and the field or path becomes hardened against  vehicle tires slipping and creating ruts/getting stuck.

I wonder if, rather than using plastic,basalt fiber geotextile could be used?

John, have you worked with either of these materials?

William, I have not heard of either of those products but I will look around and ask.
Would chain wire mesh be slippery?

I found this a HDPE Gravel gris 2 or 4 inch high
Gravel grid
CONCRETE MATS
https://www.concretemats.com.au/category/roads-driveways-tracks/
DRIVEWAY MATS
https://www.permeablesurfaces.com.au/category/grids
Plastic grid for grass protection
Grass grids

Just a thought about reducing your footprint and materials for the driveway part of your project. In New England a century ago a popular economical driveway solution was to only pave parallel strips for auto wheels to drive on. Eventually the norm became paving the center too, but I recently read someplace that people were returning to the old double strip style because it’s greener, reduces water runoff and is obviously cheaper. Wonder if that might help you save some $$$.

As mentioned earlier, without knowing the soil properties and climate, it’s tough to guess what will hold up more than one season.

Having gone down the route of having an arborist drop chips, it’s more work in the long run. Chips promote good things like worms, fungus, plant life- and as such, make the underlying soil much more permeable and soft! Wood chips are find for driving a lawnmower on, but any road vehicle with narrow, hard tires will cause bad ruts in pretty short order

Having walked tread this path over the last 7 years, the absolute best way is to do it right, once!

Use your resources and skills to befriend or do a favor for someone with machinery and skill. Use the correct aggregate that will lock together and make a decent road surface. Crushed stone and concrete with fines has held up great.

So, in summary, network with an excavator… give him a watermelon, offer your services in exchange for his!

Absolute cheapest driveway: corduroy road.

It costs trees, not the nice big ones, medium size will do, gas for chainsaw, and your time and effort. I use a wide strap to drag the logs around by looping the log and throwing the strap over my shoulder. Built 30 feet of it 2 years ago and it's still holding up very well. Drove a 15,000 pound backhoe over it multiple times without issue. Corduroy roads can last hundreds of years.

Lots of videos online on how to build it. My favorite is one produced by the american military in the 50s.

What John C Daley said.....

Give us details and someone may be able to come up with something good specific for where you are.

A local example here in FL is what's called lime rock. Cheap and effective here but definitely a local resource.

Someone familiar with the local geology may know of something good.

Another negative example is folks mentioning using wood, which I'm sure works for them, but would be gone in 2 years here.

The cheapest I can think of is a shovel and a pair of leather gloves.
After that you could have a fried with a pickup haul in a couple of loads of stone.

The corduroy roads are so cool to watch be built by the military in that old ad! I’m so glad someone suggested viewing the military corduroy Rds video.  Educational and inspirational those granddads sure worked their behinds off!  

Been there done that.  What you need depends wildly on your location and specific needs.

There is the cheap way that is fine for weekenders or 4wd access. To get construction supplies or reliably in and out with a car takes a lot more. If you can’t afford the whole thing right right now, plan out where you want it and build enough to get off the road and park. Work the other as you can. Focus on the worst spots that need culverts and then work on the rest.

I have no good solutions but am interested in seeing what emerges from this thread.  I'm in Southern Maine and I have not been able to find any reasonable methods of getting a stable, winter-proof, plowable driveway that isn't standard pavement.  

Dalton Dycer wrote:

The corduroy roads are so cool to watch be built by the military in that old ad! I’m so glad someone suggested viewing the military corduroy Rds video.  Educational and inspirational those granddads sure worked their behinds off!  

That's the video I was thinking of, thanks! It inspired me to do my corduroy. I plowed it with the backhoe last year too.

R Webber wrote:Absolute cheapest driveway: corduroy road.
.

Neato!
Hadn't heard this term, though I've seen examples.  After a quick read into the basics/uses, I am captivated.
This old swamp witch thanks you from the bottom of her bog.

Soil cement is a worth looking into.   There are many websites that explain it in detail.   Your scale will dictate what equipment you can use.   For a driveway, you can probably it done with a farm tractor, tiller and renting a compaction machine (Roller).   Soil cement is made by mixing cement with soil.  It is basically a weak concrete and has about 10% of the strength.  But 6-8" of soil cement is enough for a driveway.  You basically remove topsoil, do the required grading (slope toward hill if you are going up the side), till soil, spread cement, till and add water, regrade if needed, compact, let it set for a few days.  On larger scale you can get bulk cement for a lower price.  You will want to a little test area before you go wild.  
I have worked with it upgrading county roads to handle large truck traffic.  They use about 12" of soil cement and 3" of asphalt.  It works well, with only issues arising when the subsurface below it is not very strong (soft Clay, or next to a slope and little berm)  

I have seen a geocell system in use at the Clark College Columbia Tech center campus. They used a grasspave system to build a fire lane. They probably send their maintenance/landscaping trucks on it as well. If you turn this Street View to face the big brick building, you will see some concrete across the planter strip and a lane of smashed, brown grass.

The idea with a grass pave system is that the plastic spreads the pressure of the wheels across the ground so that the ground does not compact and smother the roots. But the manufacturer stresses that this works well for places that are used rarely, like fire lanes or parking lots for big stadiums. They recommend gravel geocells for places that will see daily traffic.

I've seen concrete grass block pavers that have stood up to decades of use.

Just a thought about reducing your footprint and materials for the driveway part of your project. In New England a century ago a popular economical driveway solution was to only pave parallel strips for auto wheels to drive on. Eventually the norm became paving the center too, but I recently read someplace that people were returning to the old double strip style because it’s greener, reduces water runoff and is obviously cheaper. Wonder if that might help you save some $$$.

I just learned that this style of driveway is called a "Ribbon Driveway" or a "Hollywood Driveway."

Could we expedite the building of a ribbon drive by using a trencher?
Two parallel trenches, filled with well tamped agragate might last longer than that same amount of material spread over a conventional driveway.
The trenches might even  drain to daylight, depending on how they were graded.

Anne Miller wrote:To me, the absolute cheapest driveway is just a dirt road.

Here is the Good, Bad & Ugly of a geocell driveway

The only reason i'm hesitant on dirt is i've seen how bad the "only dirt" farm roads wash out and become impassable to anything not a jacked up 4x4.  And sometimes not even that can have access.  I've seen darn near axle-breaking hard ruts form randomly when rain melts mud then sun dries it in various wierd cracked patterns...

I just need a way for normal road cars to get onto and off my property (even if it doesnt need access to ALL the property) and then it will be how can I expand or make a roadway for a good cost after.

John C Daley wrote:Brian, as a Civil Engineer who has designed and built many roads and laneways, I can say that there is no simple inexpensive system that will work anywhere.
There are so many parameters I cannot list them all.
It may be better to either research what you want, or give some details of the type of soil, area, rainfall, climate
for the area you want to create access.

I would LOVE to hear your feedback, and feel free to suggest some 'for dummies' book or references that I can get myself up to speed on how to even have an intelligent conversation on the issue from my side.  :)

The best details I could give is minnesota somewhere around the middle (in all ways) is sort of where i'm looking for cheap land. (dont have yet) I need to be within 90 minutes or so of the twin cities for multiple reasons - grad school I haven't yet gone to, health services, big city markets, and north seems the best direction because everything else seems to only be expensive cleared farmland in large plots which I just can't afford.

I am absolutely financially limited - if there's no way to make something work on X budget then it just isn't going to happen at all, I can't afford what I can't afford.  What i'm mostly trying to do is to figure out how to lower the cost of every ideal plan to something that will work for now even if it's not the best or long term solution when I hope we are in less money struggle.  If the cost of a road drops from $15,000 to $7000 it's probably a difference of it happening that year vs in 2 or 3 years.  Everything is a competing cost of "this or that", with everything being absolutely necessary and behind schedule (time spent learning to build stuff takes away from growing food and all other projects) and one medical bill could set all projects behind another year.


The biggest interest in geocells was just their claimed ability to work with half the normal thickness of material by stabilizing the road base.  (original reference somewhere lost to memory but I migh'tve linked in other posts on this - but it seems this is NOT necessarily true/others here disagreeing that this is the case, maybe its only relevant to 'temporary' military airfields and such)

That said it doesnt mean interest is zero without, just that it wasnt going to give me the cost savings of how many yards of gravel or sand is needed for X length of road.  (or vice versa, how much road can I build off a limited truckload or two expanding maybe each year)  The video next linked suggested that the geocell helped prevent loss and spreading of the gravel which is still a plus certainly over long term driveway stability and assumed ongoing cost of having to add gravel and regrading in the future.

William Bronson wrote:I was looking into chainlink fencing as a traction matt and just discovered that grass protection mesh is a thing.
It's a durable plastic mesh that is layed down over grass that has been cut short.
The grass regrows through the mesh, the roots entwined with it, and the field or path becomes hardened against  vehicle tires slipping and creating ruts/getting stuck.

I wonder if, rather than using plastic,basalt fiber geotextile could be used?

Now THAT is a very interesting idea/i'd never even heard of such a thing until now...  yes if it was possible to make a dirt or 'grass' road NOT descend into 8 inch deep suspension damaging ruts or wash out hopelessly in mud leaving a normal road car stuck i'd be all for that.  Or at least work for alot of the road even if not all of it.

Feel free to expand on geotextiles too...  whether to be used on dirt or anything else.  I'm relatively new to this whole field of technologies.


Watching that video suggested problems with curves, drainage along the end, and pooling water messing with the 'select mix of gravel', and an interesting bit about she had planted clover on the sides of the driveway which helped prevent worse washing away of dirt.

if your trying to move rural , do you have or know the exact property your moving to? this is important to know what the property is like, some places you can drive off the paved road right onto flat solid ground. other places there are drainage ditches along the side of paved roads and you will have to have a culvert installed just to get off the paved road and cut down trees and brush and remove stumps just to have a small space to drive onto.. what material is used is determined by what is easily accessible and available nearby that will actually work as a road bed.

Alex Abbott wrote:As mentioned earlier, without knowing the soil properties and climate, it’s tough to guess what will hold up more than one season.

Having gone down the route of having an arborist drop chips, it’s more work in the long run...make the underlying soil much more permeable and soft! Wood chips are find for driving a lawnmower on, but any road vehicle with narrow, hard tires will cause bad ruts in pretty short order

Having walked tread this path over the last 7 years, the absolute best way is to do it right, once!

I'm again faced by the issue of "doing it the best way" can cost more than I have available meaning it wont get done at all, the cost and complexity of everything has already stopped it before it even begun for more than 10 years.  I want to do things right, but the best 'right' is the kind I can upgrade in the future (like maybe 4 inch gravel isn't enough but in a year or two I add 4 more inches? or maybe it doesnt work that way) or expand the use of like the shortest 'right' road made longer later.  (like i'm now thinking of making a skiddable structure/house so that I can have it right next to the road to start, and then drag it inland a few years hence when I have a tractor to clear trees for a road and clearing)

I've been in financial decline due to disabilities for over 10 years.  I'm trying to manage that while working my way towards grad school while fully knowing the debt I build up could make life impossible by the time i'm done - i'm already in late 40's and asking is there even still a point of grad school starting this late, but if I don't then I need to live cheaply even more cuz i'm in debt now.  Doing everything right is hundreds of thousands of dollars multiplied by 30 years interest for most people - and my only options are to simplify needs, to learn to do the job myself that i'd otherwise hire a professional to do, reduce material costs/use on site material, and to try to work without expensive equipment at least to start.  I try to reduce the cost of each component of moving to DIY land.  Perhaps i'll be able to make friends and barter help for heavy machinery help but i'll still have deliveries of however many yards of aggregate and such.

My biggest plan is to try to build and upgrade as I go and as my body lets me.  If I have the land to start I might have help move in - but I cant 100% rely on that either.  In the future I hope to build or acquire some equipment that will make things easier like a LifeTrac tractor.    If I get far enough I hopefully will have a decent future income that will let me get out of debt and then re-do things on the rural land right.  There's just some 'ifs' in there.  :-P


PS - some really fascinating posts before this that I haven't yet read but am catching up to now.  :-P

Since you are looking for cheap land in Minnesota  I would suggest looking for land that already has some amenities, especially an access road.

I have bought a lot of cheap properties and the best deals I have gotten were ones with older homes for the same price as raw land.

Sometimes these homes are fixer-upper or teardowns.  Or they might be properties with old barns.

A month later and the thread is huge with good ideas... which is great.  :)  I'll try to respond to some of these... out of order!  Because i'm taking notes and brainstorming as I go.

R Webber wrote:Absolute cheapest driveway: corduroy road.
It costs trees, not the nice big ones, medium size will do, gas for chainsaw, and your time and effort. I use a wide strap to drag the logs around by looping the log and throwing the strap over my shoulder. Built 30 feet of it 2 years ago and it's still holding up very well. Drove a 15,000 pound backhoe over it multiple times without issue. Corduroy roads can last hundreds of years.

How much time and effort did it take to build that 30 feet?  Was it you alone?  How wet is your soil?

Dave Bross wrote:What John C Daley said.....
Give us details and someone may be able to come up with something good specific for where you are.
Another negative example is folks mentioning using wood, which I'm sure works for them, but would be gone in 2 years here.

Middle minnesota.  Part of my difficulty is inexpensive in money vs inexpensive in time - i'm looking for a bit of both because i'm not sure how consistently I could fell trees all day.
Wood rotting in the ground would be a big concern, under snow half the winter, wet soils in spring, how long would a corduroy road last here I wonder?

Grass Protection Mesh - THIS looks very useful, I just wasn't aware of such a thing.  Between the low cost and how quick it should go in to considerably improve the parking/delivery situation.

This is narrowing down some of the possibilities at least, it's looking like some combination of strategies is probably right.  As simple as the grass protection mesh for some areas (because that seems to be the fastest, easily installed, inexpensive upgrade to reduce rutting and tire slipping) even if it's technically over a dirt road (or it's just over grass and the grass doesn't degrade into a dirt road because the grass is protected?) and then figuring out better interim solutions.

It's clear the 'best' solution will involve digging with a front loader, compacting the soil with a roller, then possibly using some kind of trencher along the sides for drainage - as soon as I have access to the equipment to do that I hope to do it 'right' and to stay too I will do it this way.  The next question would be whether i'm using anything unconventional after that like 'mechanical concrete'/used tires or have some other material to build with.

bruce Fine wrote:if your trying to move rural , do you have or know the exact property your moving to? this is important to know what the property is like, some places you can drive off the paved road right onto flat solid ground. other places there are drainage ditches along the side of paved roads and you will have to have a culvert installed just to get off the paved road and cut down trees and brush and remove stumps just to have a small space to drive onto.. what material is used is determined by what is easily accessible and available nearby that will actually work as a road bed.

I don't have anything in mind - i'm kind of doing it in reverse because i'm shopping at the absolute bottom of the market of unimproved land and seeing if there are things I can somewhat inexpensively fix, for less than it costs to get "better" land.  What kind of land can I get for 15k that I can drive right onto vs for 10k and having to build a culvert for instance?  What does "the right/pro" solution cost vs some kind of DIY solution "for now"?

Because my 'plan' is always refining and changing based on what I plan to do with things, one of the best solutions i'm revising to is to try to build a tiny house on a skid "as close to the road as possible" to start planning to move it back further in the future, and to just start with the smallest sliver of usable 'parking land' to put some vehicles.

Someone suggested cutting trees 3 feet up and using the stumps as a temporary foundation for the tiny house - this may well happen!  As long as it's not solid trees to the road with no ability to park anywhere without stump removal I mean.  I'm working around limits of money, time, and lack of heavy equipment which is the hardest combo imaginable.

Anne Miller wrote:Since you are looking for cheap land in Minnesota  I would suggest looking for land that already has some amenities, especially an access road.

If I can find one sure, but those i've looked at so far the raw land was alot cheaper than anything with a structure.

I'm trying to educate myself of what it costs to add things to raw land vs buying something already on the land in all cases.  I'm aware I might be in the market for land worth $20k, and find something for $10k that needs too many improvements to be afforded - and is worth less than $20k land that already has those things.  I'm trying to find the minimum that I could set up a pickup camper shell or schoolbus conversion on, put up a vinyl sided steel framed quonset type hut for tools/materials, build the tiny house, and make a parking area for to just get started on the homesteading journey at all.  Everything else can come in time.  So far the cost of parking/road has been a considerable impediment. (but some of the ideas in this thread are helping alot)

Wow, lots of information here.

But one option I have not seen is simply dumping down gravel.  My driveway consists entirely of gravel—there is no geocell or similar construction.

Initially the topsoil was plowed off and limestone dust was laid down.  Heavy trucks compressed the lime dust into the subsoil (I was building the house at the time).  The driveway had to be dressed a couple of times after which a combination of 1/2 dust, 1/2 .75 inch gravel was put down.

I probably had 3-4 layers of the latter put down in the first 5 years, but by the driveway is extremely solid.  I don’t have a total cost, but I never bought anything to put under the gravel.  For reference, my driveway is about 400’ long with a 30x30 (ish) parking zone adjacent.

Eric

Eric Hanson wrote:But one option I have not seen is simply dumping down gravel.  My driveway consists entirely of gravel—there is no geocell or similar construction.

There's that too...  I need to compare right ways to do things vs less than right ways mostly.  It may be just dumping gravel will lead to wastage (all scattering everywhere) or needing to ideally be redone from zero to be done right (putting in roadbed) but yes it is an option vs all the other options.

Right now i'm thinking the most important principle has turned into "make the SHORTEST POSSIBLE road to start" so I don't have much waste though and try to figure out how much coverage I can get like from one ten yard (or whatever) dump truck load between both 'short road' and 'parking area'.

If my house is on skids it can be moved deeper inland later when I get things better figured out and finally have some heavy equipment and funding later.  I might drag the house somewhere totally different than the original parking area and consider that guest overflow or something, i'm undecided right now.

PS - the 'mechanical concrete' option drifted up my interest level for doing it right, probably DIY instead of whoever it is that sells this commercially cuz I don't even know where or how it gets delivered.  Thinking something like a sabre saw to cut the sidewalls off myself after collecting a few trailerloads of tossouts, hmm...

John Daley and others, please have a look at my related thread if you like.  I'm seeking input regarding geotextile fabric on a rural road in Hawaii.

thanks

https://permies.com/t/264826/geotextile-fabric-dirt-gravel-road