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diatomaceous earth

paul wheaton

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posted 10 years ago

A series of recent bits and bobs compelled my to write an article about diatomaceous earth

.

Did I leave anything out?

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Posts: 461

Location: Inland Central Florida, USA

posted 10 years ago

I agree that DE is useful stuff. Of course with all things there are notes to keep in mind like don't go breathing lots of dusty stuff or getting it in your eyes. And the fact that DE is not very effective as a bug killer if in a moist environment I think is the biggest drawback to using it against things like ants.

The DE that is advertized as a pesticide, I get the impression that it has extra bait material mixed into it to attract the ants and roaches to eat it and feed it to the nest. This bait laced stuff definitely doesn't appeal to me for use in food/grain storage since the other ingredients in it are not clearly listed and it may attract as many bugs into the food as it manages to kill.

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Brenda Groth

pollinator

Posts: 4437

Location: North Central Michigan

posted 10 years ago

i have read a lot about using it, but have never found the reason to buy it and use it in my gardens.

Brenda

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paul wheaton

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posted 10 years ago

I think that for a permie, that for every way you could use it in your garden, there is a better way to deal with that problem.

But! In your house? I think there are things in your house where DE is the best choice.

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Susan Monroe

Posts: 1093

Location: Western WA

posted 10 years ago

People eat it because it has quite a few trace minerals in it. I consider them VERY trace, but others may feel differently, or the price per dose is easier to live with. And with many people touting the internal-parasite-killing ability of it, they may be using it for that, too. (Like Paul, I don't see the value of that, but someone once told me that I don't know everything...) More info needed on that, but since the stuff is so cheap, that isn't going to happen soon.

Regarding the danger to lungs: it's there, but using a little common sense should mitigate that. You can buy 50 of those simple dust masks for about $5. Get some. Also, it is said that there are two sources of DE, freshwater DE and saltwater DE (original source), and the freshwater type is supposed to be less dangerous to the lungs.

If you can force offensive insects to crawl through DE, it has the best chance of killing them. I cover a thatch ant nest area (there are usually quite a few openings) with a coat of DE about half an inch thick.

One of the big human health hazards is cockroaches. This stuff kills them. Put it under the house in an area that stays dry: make a large thick doughnut-like ring of it and put food or roach pheromone in the center, so they have to wade through the DE to get to the bait. If you have cracks in bricks or concrete, work it in there, too. A soft work-type brush dipped in DE works quite well.

So you don't have to pay shipping, call the farm supply stores around you and ask for "CODEX FOOD GRADE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH for livestock". Give them the entire term so the 19-yr-old gumchewer doesn't have to think much. If they don't carry it, ask who does. I'm sure they all know what it is.

Sue

Leah Sattler

Posts: 2603

posted 10 years ago

Susan Monroe wrote:
And with many people touting the internal-parasite-killing ability of it, they may be using it for that, too. (Like Paul, I don't see the value of that, but someone once told me that I don't know everything...)
If you can force offensive insects to crawl through DE, it has the best chance of killing them. I cover a thatch ant nest area (there are usually quite a few openings) with a coat of DE about half an inch thick.

"CODEX FOOD GRADE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH for livestock". Give them the entire term so the 19-yr-old gumchewer doesn't have to think much. If they don't carry it, ask who does. I'm sure they all know what it is.

Sue

I havne' seen the value as an anthelmentic either but it is a nice idea. I have heard of people trying to use it worm their goats and so far no one has presented me with any concrete evidence that it works. it is well known that it isnt' effective in a moisture and I can't imaging that after being masticated with cud a few times it would have any worm killing power.

your last statement is so funny. last time I asked for de at our local farm and home store I got lots of cocked heads chewing gum. I had seen it there before but even the manager insisted there was no such thing. I guess they did stop carrying it but I think he thought I was pulling there leg about what it was!

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Susan Monroe

Posts: 1093

Location: Western WA

posted 10 years ago

And NEVER refer to it as 'DE', as that's more than the public-school-schooled minds can take.

Posts: 4

posted 10 years ago

I do not know if this is true but I am afraid to take the risk -- I store employee warned me against diatom. earth because I have chickens. He said that it cuts their gizzard.

Now, would I love to rid our land of slugs, at least during gardening? Yes, oh yes. I think I'll just add a goose to my chicken flock first though.

Susan Monroe

Posts: 1093

Location: Western WA

posted 10 years ago

"store employee warned me against diatom. earth because I have chickens. He said that it cuts their gizzard."

Just when you think you've heard every stupid remark possible from store employees, someone always comes up with a new one.

If you are using food-grade DE (the only kind you should use), you can eat it yourself. You can feed it to your kids, dogs and livestock. It is as fine as flour.

There is NO WAY this stuff is going to damage a chicken's crop! My birds eat it whenever they happen to run across it, and they're six years old. If this stuff is injuring their crops, it sure does work slow!

Sue

Posts: 461

Location: Inland Central Florida, USA

posted 10 years ago

When they tell you that DE will hurt your chickens, they are probably thinking you want to use pool grade DE which will hurt you and your chickens if you eat it. The stuff they use in swimming pool filters is definitely different than the food grade stuff.

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Leah Sattler

Posts: 2603

posted 10 years ago

they mix it with flour at a certain percentage to kill flour moth larvae. its fine for chickens (the food grade stuff)

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"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent

Posts: 461

Location: Inland Central Florida, USA

posted 10 years ago

They mix food grade DE with most stored grains and we probably eat some every day. I've actually read that it is really good for chickens and if you can get them to take a dust bath in it, it could solve lots of pest and skin issues for some of them. Again, make sure it is the food grade stuff.

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Jami McBride

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Posts: 1948

Location: PNW Oregon

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posted 9 years ago

First off, from experimenting I have found that the amount of DE used in given situations matters. To little and the bugs that bug you will keep doing what they like.

I believed that DE doesn't work when wet because of the properties of water. It is attracted to other materials - called adhesion, and to it's self called cohesion. Water simply forms a bubble around the DE particles acting as a buffer of sorts. It's not a perfect buffer, but perfect enough to no longer be effective.

I have always wondered how it could work internally.... then I read this

While this makes them chemically invisible to people and animals and kills via physical...or rather mechanical...means, via cutting, it also works as inert material within the gut, filling it up with something they can't process and blocking further feeding or digesting.

I wonder if it would fill up the gut of parasites.....?

I do know that small amounts of DE won't work externally so I assume large amounts would have to be ingested likewise for any results to be seen.

It would be nice to have some science on the internal use that's for sure.

I use herbs for worming my animals, and DE for bugs.

~Jami

Posts: 1

posted 9 years ago

There are a few reasons I would be interested in buying this product if I can get some answers to my questions: 1) to help my Doberman; 2) to help 2 of my cats; 3) Fire Ants ALL OVER my 3 1/2 acres; 4) me & my gut problem.

I just heard about this stuff today and have been reading what I can find on the internet. I'm confused. One site states not harmful if inhaled due to it becoming inactive (not sharp) when moist. If that is the case, how in the world does it help anything if it is mixed in water/liquid for people to drink? Supposed to kill worms in intestinal tract - but ineffective when damp/wet? Isn't the intestinal tract damp/wet?

Also is said to kill parasites/bugs with exoskeleton. I don't believe intestinal worms have an exoskeleton, so again, how would it kill worms? Same question about it killing slugs?

Could not imagine taking chances with my dogs lives by taking them off Heartworm preventative and hoping DE would prevent infection. These worms start in the bloodstream. How does the sharp/razor portion of DE get to the blood stream to take care of these pests?

My Doberman has a HUGE, BAD gas problem and this was suggested as a possible solution to his problem. Nothing wrong with him per the many tests at the vet. Everything is either negative or normal - no worms. Choice of food (cheap stuff, middle of the road, to the very expensive holistic food) makes no difference.

Also looking for help for 2 of my 10 cats. Those 2 have loose stools. Again, nothing wrong per the vet/tests, yet always soft to loose stools. Everyone else has a very good small tight stool.

paul wheaton

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posted 9 years ago

I can speak only of what I know:

1) When used dry, it works.

2) I have never intentionally eaten it or fed it to any animals because I have no idea how it is supposed to work there. I have heard of people doing that and claiming to have great results. The previous post (by "currentwave") suggests something interesting as a possibility.

3) I would not go out of my way to breath a bunch of it in, just as I would not go out of my way to breath in any dust.

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John Meshna

Posts: 111

Location: Vermont

posted 9 years ago

Here are some tips and information.

Heartworm is in the blood stream and DE has no effect on the circulatory system as such. Keep with the heartworm medication until such time as a natural, proven effective treatment comes along, if ever.

DE kills intestinal parasites of all kinds. Feeding it is up to 2% of the daily ration of food for the animal. I give it to my dogs everyday.

No dosage is recommended for people because like so many other things, the USDA and the FDA are in bed with the chemical companies and the AMA to keep people from finding and using effective, low cost alternatives to the poisons they recommend and manufacture.

I know of people who have taken it and told me that they have been tested for heavy metal poisoning and after taking a teaspoon or two a day for 6 months to a year they retested with no heavy metals in their system. No medical evidence supports this but this is what some say. I have taken it with juice and water to settle an upset stomach and received immediate positive results.

It's been used in grain storage silos for years and is known to be nontoxic. you may already have eaten some today in your cereal or grain from bread.

Wet applications work pretty good outside. The liquid allows the stuff to find it's way into holes and cracks in the ground and once it dries out, when mixed with soap it sticks to any surface it gets on.

The dust thing is like Paul said. It's dust. You don't want to breath a lot of it anymore than any other kind of dust. Fresh Water DE-Fossil Shell flour contains mostly amorphous silica which is good for you and even necessary for life on earth. Swimming Pool De and other forms of DE on the market for filtration and other purposes like grinding compounds contain high amounts of crystaline silica which is what causes silicosis you may have read about.

We bag it and work with it everyday and we're all okay. We were crazy before we used it.

John Meshna (owner)
Blue River LLC
1195 Dog Team Road
New Haven, Vt 05472

Jeremy Bunag

gardener

Posts: 231

Location: Central IL

posted 9 years ago

dirtworks wrote:
Here are some tips and information.

<snip!>

The dust thing is like Paul said. It's dust. You don't want to breath a lot of it anymore than any other kind of dust. Fresh Water DE-Fossil Shell flour contains mostly amorphous silica which is good for you and even necessary for life on earth. Swimming Pool De and other forms of DE on the market for filtration and other purposes like grinding compounds contain high amounts of crystaline silica which is what causes silicosis you may have read about.

Thanks for this silica clarification. Every talks about "Ooo silica dust! Touch and die!," as usual generalization screws things up....

dirtworks wrote:
We bag it and work with it everyday and we're all okay. We were crazy before we used it.

Ha!

paul wheaton

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posted 9 years ago

John,

That is some excellent information!

Any ideas on how it might help with the heavy metal stuff? Or with internal parasites?

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John Meshna

Posts: 111

Location: Vermont

posted 9 years ago

Theory is..wink, wink that the molecules of DE are negatively charged. If you look at the stuff under and electron microscope it sorta looks like wheat checks and all those little holes are surrounded by negatively charged atoms which draw positively charged particles to them. As luck would have it, most of the heavy metals and crap that's bad for you is positively charged so it get attracted and stuck onto the DE and then your body passes the whole business out of you as neutral waste.
You have something similar but not exactly like that going on in the soil. Soils have heavy metals in them. Some a a lot and some a natural amount. If the pH gets out of balance these valence bonds get broken and the metals become available for the plants to get hold of and absorb and we wind up eating them. It's one reason why not to use Lee Lime or Slick Lime as it's sometimes called. That type of lime changes the pH rapidly and breaks all the bonds in some cases within hours. pH changes need to be done gradually so as to keep things in balance at the molecular level. I've oversimplified this a little but hopefully it makes sense to the casual reader.

For internal parasites the stuff works much the same way it works for bugs, The physical scraping action and desiccant qualities of the product scour out the tract on the way by. It's a little less effective on hook worms because of their ability to hang on to the lining of the digestive tract so treatment takes a little longer to be effective with those rascals.

diatomateous-earth-magnified.jpg

John Meshna (owner)
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New Haven, Vt 05472

Joel Hollingsworth

pollinator

Posts: 2103

Location: Oakland, CA

posted 9 years ago

Some of the things that are good for you are positively charged, as well, like iron and calcium and magnesium.

The chemical reaction of finely divided silica with calcium compounds was behind the original invention of concrete by imperial Rome. I bet this would entrain and immobilize all sorts of other metals.

City Slicker Farms grows lots of calcium-rich produce for children in polluted areas, expressly so that their bodies are able to handle lead exposure better. (Partly, your body has trouble telling the difference between them.)

It would make sense that eating plenty of calcium would help with heavy metal exposure in a way that is synergistic with DE, and I also think it may forestall some of the problems that eating DE might cause.

"the qualities of these bacteria, like the heat of the sun, electricity, or the qualities of metals, are part of the storehouse of knowledge of all men. They are manifestations of the laws of nature, free to all men and reserved exclusively to none." SCOTUS, Funk Bros. Seed Co. v. Kale Inoculant Co.

John Meshna

Posts: 111

Location: Vermont

posted 9 years ago

I know of no side effects from eating DE. Wally, the owner of Perma Guard who died last year at the age of 87 told me he took it every day since 1965 when he bought the company and he was never sick since he started taking it. But, of course, we're not having this discussion about eating diatomaceous earth because it's not sanctioned by the federal government. We just heard all this on the street right? I was never here!

John Meshna (owner)
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New Haven, Vt 05472

Joel Hollingsworth

pollinator

Posts: 2103

Location: Oakland, CA

posted 9 years ago

dirtworks wrote:
I know of no side effects from eating DE.

I bet people with a diet chronically deficiencient in major minerals (mostly, the ones I listed) might see some downsides. Anyone with a normal first-world diet is probably OK. Increasing DE consumption should probably be balanced by some increase in mineral consumption if there isn't much room to spare, and a little more spinach wouldn't hurt most people anyway.

The heavy metal thing makes sense to me, just like it makes sense that eating Olestra helps with PCB poisoning. Similarly, it makes sense to eat extra fat-soluble vitamins whenever you eat Olestra, because it pulls anything oily out of your body.

Leah Sattler

Posts: 2603

posted 9 years ago

broilers and DE. says great stuff about probios. which we probably all knew!
http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin1172.pdf

frustratingly I have never been able to find any studies on the effectiveness of de for internal parasites. I can find casual references to them. only one positive that says there is a cover up by the chem companies and so they didn't finish the study which wouldn't surprise me entirely...but why can't someone other then the chem companies conduct a decent one! I have found other references that indicate all the studies are seriously flawed and are therefore useless. all the "home studies" I have been privy to are flawed similiarly even for amateur experiments which tend to leave the owners convinced but are certainly not controlled enough to produce evena tentative conclusion. problems such as changing the managment at the same time the de is introduced and as one place pointed out not taking into account natural parasitic cycles and declines in the fall.

many products are available includinging mineral mixes for goats that include de. one of my major doubts about using it for internal parasite control is that everything points out that it loses its effectiveness when wet. having had my hands in goat guts I can assure you it is a very wet enviroment.

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John Meshna

Posts: 111

Location: Vermont

posted 9 years ago

I have testimonials from Vets and farmers on this subject, some of which are posted on my web site. Unfortunately most of the ones I have, I got from Wally Tharp who passed away a couple of years ago. He was an old guy and didn't have much computer sense so what he gave me was paper copies that have to be retyped or scanned to publish and this renders them suspect in people's eyes because they lose their authenticity when retouched. I have some of them published on this page. the menu bar at the top has the full list that's available now.
http://www.dirtworks.net/Diatomaceous-Earth/Diatomaceous-Earth-Testimonials.html

John Meshna (owner)
Blue River LLC
1195 Dog Team Road
New Haven, Vt 05472

Posts: 2

Location: Michigan

posted 9 years ago

I want to try DE. I have 6 dogs and 5 cats. So that would be an inexpensive way to remedy our flea problem. I see there are places to order on line. But I want it like yesterday, so is there a certain type of store/bsiness that sells this stuff?
Katherine

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paul wheaton

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posted 9 years ago

Katherine,

Forgive me as I moved your question to the end of this thread.

Check with your local farm supply store. Be sure to find food grade DE. About one in five farm stores carry it all the time.

Some hardware stores carry it.

I also found it in a health food store and one time there was this store that was all about "natural products" and it was in there.

It may be wise to call around.

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Posts: 461

Location: Inland Central Florida, USA

posted 9 years ago

I've found a product at home depot or lowes that is a DE product that I think might have an additional bait for ants and roaches. It would definitely not be food grade though.

Biggest problem I find with using DE on a large scale against pests in the house on on your pets is the dustiness of it. If that doesn't bother you, then it might be worth a dry. Wear a dust mask when working with it though.

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paul wheaton

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posted 9 years ago

The dustiness is a hassle. But the dustiness of vacuuming is a hassle too. And the dustiness of baking with flour. And the dustiness of sweeping. And the dustiness of beating a rug.

And the dustiness of DE is (IMOO) 100 times less of a hassle than foggers or bombs.

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John Meshna

Posts: 111

Location: Vermont

posted 9 years ago

And fleas are even worse! I'll take the dust over fleas any day.

John Meshna (owner)
Blue River LLC
1195 Dog Team Road
New Haven, Vt 05472

Leah Sattler

Posts: 2603

posted 9 years ago

there is not much I wouldn't take over fleas!!! including dust. although for some people with specific health problems dust can be a particular problem.

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Charles ABatey

Posts: 9

Location: East Tennessee

posted 9 years ago

this seems like it would be particularly good against termites. possibly combined with the sand barrier tactic as an added precaution, any thoughts

What better reason could you have to do something good than because you can.

Posts: 461

Location: Inland Central Florida, USA

posted 9 years ago

CharlesABatey wrote:
this seems like it would be particularly good against termites. possibly combined with the sand barrier tactic as an added precaution, any thoughts

What is the sand barrier tactic? In my experience here in Florida, I don't see how sand would be any sort of barrier to termites. DE might kinda help but since the termites can travel through the wood, they could avoid the DE and of course DE becomes less effective in moist environments.

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Charles ABatey

Posts: 9

Location: East Tennessee

posted 9 years ago

there are some studies that have been linked elsewhere on this site that talk about how sand of a certain size (16grit) can be a barrier to termites because it is too big for the termites to easily haul away, and not big enough to support tunnel structures spontaneously on its own. This technique is supposedly used in surrounding foundations, or other areas where wood is in contact with soil. I forget the suggested thickness, but basically since you would want these areas to be as dry as possible anyway to prevent rotting, you would have to engineer a dry space via hill slow, ditches, french drains, or what have you. then surround your buried wood with this 16 grit sand , and the termites, according to this study, wouldn't be able to get through. i will try to find the link that i saw earlier and repost it on this thread.

so my thought was that if you mixed some diatomaceous earth with this sand barrier, it would be an added safeguard. so if the termites do find a weak spot where they could haul away sand or get it to form tunnels, they would also find DE in that spot, further limiting their expansion. And with regard to the wetness issue, as i mentioned before, you are going to want these areas to be as dry as possible anyway, so hopefully there will be limited moisture to mess with them. also since the sand would naturally drain well, it ought to dry out quickly.

i dont know if becoming wet then re-drying affects the effectiveness of DE but it seems to me since the stuff is formed by little ocean creatures in the first place, that even if water while present limits their effectiveness, once the water is gone (dried up) it shouldnt have permanently altered their structure. (of course the possibility exists that due to their microscopic structure, and water's incredible attractive strength at such scale that once wet it may take a very long time for the individual diatoms to become dry, even if the surrounding environment is. This is only speculation, i have no expertise in this matter, just trying to think of all angles)

So anyway, I have not tried this, nor have I tested the sand barrier method alone, simply read about it. However it just seemed to me that it might be a good fit. All just theoretical, any refinement would be welcome. and if anyone is in a position to test this theory, i would love to hear how it worked out, because alas i am not currently able to test it myself.

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Posts: 461

Location: Inland Central Florida, USA

posted 9 years ago

Sounds pretty logical. I do expect that you are right about the DE powder tending to take a really long time to dry out once wet. And I might worry about if it becomes wet during construction, I wonder if it might actually combine with the sand to make tunneling easier (as in act like a weak cement) so it would probably be worth playing with before depending on it.

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Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

Thanks to Paul's article I know that DE can kill fleas.
Would it be safe to spread a little under the carpet before you install it?? so that way when fleas go down to enjoy the habitat under the carpet they will come in contact with DE?

Robert Ray

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Posts: 1381

Location: Cascades of Oregon

posted 9 years ago

One of my first jobs was working at a swimming pool and DE was used in the filtration system. The DE would be poured from the bag over a series of screen panels and would adhere, the water would flow through the coverd panels now coaed with DE.
Wished I'd have paid more atttention now.

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Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

Interesting, so it kills bugs & stuff in the water or it just makes the filters more efficient??

Robert Ray

gardener

Posts: 1381

Location: Cascades of Oregon

posted 9 years ago

I believe it was just a finer degree of filtration. Once you shut off the water in-flow the DE would slough off and fall to the bottom of the tank and then you drain the tank. Hose off the screens and then restart the flow. Once the flow level covered the screens you'd pour in the DE and it would coat the screens. Execess DE fell to the bottom of the tank. Once all screens were coated close the drain valve, exess DE had gone out the drain. Tank had a series of eight screens 4x6. I'd be covered in a fine dusting of DE and sunscreen and would have to take a dip before getting back in the lifeguard chair or I'd be itchy for the rest of the day.

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paul wheaton

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posted 9 years ago

Dianne Keast wrote:
Would it be safe to spread a little under the carpet before you install it?? so that way when fleas go down to enjoy the habitat under the carpet they will come in contact with DE?

Safe, yes.

I'm not sure I would do it. I wonder if it would absorb moisture in the air and then not work. I dunno, my gut says I probably wouldn't do this.

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paul wheaton

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posted 9 years ago

Robert Ray wrote:
One of my first jobs was working at a swimming pool and DE was used in the filtration system. The DE would be poured from the bag over a series of screen panels and would adhere, the water would flow through the coverd panels now coaed with DE.
Wished I'd have paid more atttention now.

The DE used in swimming pools is apparently different from the food grade DE. Apparently the swimming pool DE can be bad for you.

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