No Debt, Starting To Save, Region Specific Job

Well, after working seasonally in Alaska I acquired a nice chunk of money that I set aside, I don't have any debt, I have a lot of woodworking tools for processing timber, trying to start some woodworking side hustles on Etsy as well as locally, and I'm looking to get my plot of land secured with enough forest to feed a wood oven and a rocket mass heater. I've also got a potential partner to care for at this point and it's extremely motivating but I don't always know, looking from the outside in or at the bigger picture, what my logical next move should be, if any.

The problem I now face is that in Florida, land is ridiculously expensive, forest is nearly nonexistent, and my line of work (yacht carpentry) is... well, kind of Florida-coast specific, to a great extent. I love Florida beyond anything but it doesn't really afford me the self-sufficiency I seek. I don't want to be remote nor in the middle of nowhere, but having "resources" of my own has proven to be the most important to me. Our oven is broken (AGAIN) and I cannot bake, I am an avid baker and somehow bread has managed to become the final straw. A major life goal now is the fact I do not want to rely on this gizmo anymore.

Any advice for my situation? Keep working my butt off here and try to secure something a bit further north? I've got no real problems with nearly any state in the South, kind of leaning toward North Carolina or Tennessee though. I don't really know if I'd ever be able to manage juggling this job and life here while trying to grow roots a bit further North.

Congratulations on no debt. When I think over all the freedom I have in my life, it is because we paid off our small student debt ten years ago and have never had any more since then. You are a very lucky person to have been prudent enough to avoid debt!

It's exciting that you've made so much happen this year. I really hope you continue to branch out and try new things to get toward your dreams.

If you're thinking of a move to Tennessee, the states of California and Florida seem to be emptying themselves out into this state, so property values continue to go up up up here like crazy. The sooner you get here, the cheaper it will be!

Again, congrats and best wishes. You are making your dreams a reality!

I’ve come to the unfortunate conclusion that I might just be living with my parents in the suburbs for the rest of my life and never have my permaculture dream.

Now that I’m looking at houses since I’m able to save, Florida prices, and of course all post-COVID prices, are absolutely insane. I can’t even afford rent in the area I both live in and grew up in. I’ve watched droves of people get driven out of here if they didn’t already own their housing. Mortgage, insurance, maintenance? No way, out of the question, forever basically.

I’m not really sure what to do at this point. Feels like I’m saving my money for absolutely nothing. What a bleak outlook for this country. A total lack of a middle class and wages that are magnitudes behind inflation.

Me again, because I resonate in many ways with your story, and what you talk about here is always much on my mind.

My family has a mortgage, but only because we bought in a certain place at a certain time (8 years ago, right before the country discovered our charming little city, in a rural, overlooked county far from the big cities). Since then, our property value has more than doubled, and we could not afford this house now or probably ever. That makes me so sad for all people like we were/are and you are. Locals are totally priced out of their homes here, as wealthy retirees from NY, FL, and CA are descending on our town.

So add to that, that I now want acreage in my county. I would like to have chickens and goats. But since we couldn't even afford this urban 1/4-acre again, how would ever get 3-5 acres in the country? Developers are building spec-homes and subdivisions on former Tennessee farms like you wouldn't believe, and those of us that would like to farm that beautiful land, can't because we can't afford to get it.

Or can't we? Permaculture won't let me accept "can't" as my only answer.

So...what are my options?

Near the top of our list is waiting for my dear MiL to sell her subdivision property when she is too old to manage the maintenance on her own (which will probably be in the next five years or so).  Then with her money and our money combined, we will be able to afford something large enough for two small dwellings as well as a small homestead situation.

There's also waiting until my daughter is a teenager (only 5 more years) and then I go to work part-time and save my wages until we have a down-payment for a couple undeveloped acres, and do what we can to steward that into becoming a homestead someday.

My parents have 20 acres in the woods 10 minutes away, and I could work harder to create a market garden scenario over there.

I am certain there are many more options than these few, depending of course on how far I am willing to move from where we now live, how bare-bones we are willing to live day-to-day at least at first, and how "handy" we teach ourselves to be.

So I am totally with you that the opportunities available for most people today are quite different than the ones our parents and grandparents had available to them, and I am not cheerful about that, but I must make the most of what I've got. In these times--and in all times, truly!--partnering with others in families and communities seems to be the best way to make the most out of the least.

Jeff Steez wrote:  I’m not really sure what to do at this point. Feels like I’m saving my money for absolutely nothing. What a bleak outlook for this country. A total lack of a middle class and wages that are magnitudes behind inflation.

P.S. I will say again that I am very glad that you are saving--this will only give you freedoms and increase your options and possibilities-- and am also glad that economic circumstances are giving you some extra time to think about future investments, such as a mortgage.

I have a mortgage, as I said, and I was trying to be grateful for it today, as it definitely keeps landlords from pricing me out of my dwelling, but...it's still something that binds us to a specific income level, and thereby takes away some of our freedom. Each month I pay more in 1) escrow for taxes/insurance and in 2) interest payments than I do for the capital loan repayment. That doesn't feel right, to put it mildly.

This is all a way to introduce my recommendation that you look into all the possibilities there may be to homestead without getting a mortgage. I wish I had known about Permaculture before we bought our house. I wish I had learned to think outside the box about finance, economics, and lifestyle options before we started our family. I hope you will take this chance to dive deep, talk to wise and resilient Permie-types, and keep trying good things and saving money. You will have adventures, live according to your values, and leave a good mark upon this world. Best wishes!

I made a comment on another thread here... Someone posted their sort of permaculture dwelling with water catchment in New Mexico. It's basically the starter house that doesn't exist, except it's in the middle of nowhere. I mean... I could try to get a mortgage on it to gain equity. Maybe fly out to visit it once every few months... Live there someday when it's paid off, or sell it, who knows. Regardless, a $119,000 non-mobile home DOES NOT exist in Florida.

Might just have to figure out how to make money on the internet. Or... come up with some other solution to simply existing, buy land, stick an RV on it or something. The large population, rules and regulations, lack of natural resources, holy cow man, the ability to simply exist these days, bafflingly complex.

I really do not want a mortgage though, even though it's not necessarily bad debt.

Yes, the prospects before you sound discouraging, I agree. I am sorry! But--you are a Permaculturist! You have mental tools that give you an advantage over many, many people. You will design better situations than you are in now.

I'm curious, what is the core of your Permaculture dream? Most of your personal/family income coming from a market garden? Having several cultivated acres and a cow for your own subsistence needs? Travelling all over the country as an advisor/speaker? (I'm just throwing out ideas here!)

When you can find the core of your aspiration, you can start to design action plans that incorporate it to some degree. Maybe what you work on today will look nothing like the complete, beautiful vision you see in your mind, but--you are moving in that direction, preparing yourself ever more for a time when you may be able to "level-up."

The core of my Permaculture dream is a small homestead or subsistence-farm for my family. Sadly, no "three acres and a cow" seem to be remotely in my future, alas. But can I design something towards that dream? Yes...I saved lots of money on organic green bell peppers this summer by growing ALL of ours this year in pots on the driveway. I didn't buy a single one at the grocery store, where they are more than $3 each! That felt SO so good. And in the summer, we put up a short fishing-line fence to keep the deer out of our front yard sunny patch, which worked perfectly, and although I didn't do much with it this year, because the soil is miserable hard clay, under huge oak trees. But, I did grow at least six different kinds of crops there that did pretty well with tiny patches of bought soil. Happily, my folks live on a street with wonderful neighbors that will let us haul away their horses' (composted) manure, and so I am going to build raised rows in the front yard garden with that manure in 2024, and I believe I can provide more than 10-20% of our produce needs next year, if I plant wisely and keep an eye on everything. That will be very exciting indeed.

Speaking from the heart here: I find it very easy to stay stuck in discouragement, and not try for better in my situation because what I see before me doesn't match the grand vision I have in my head. But, when I can remember to not let myself get distracted by the bad feelings, then I get to work, and make things happen, and that changes things. It changes me, it changes how I see myself, and it changes how other people see me. I can keep the "bad guys" (or bad circumstances) from winning if I don't let them win in my life--if I don't quit building brick-by-brick in my life towards my dreams.

I think now more than ever people need a partner in my generation. To ease the burden, to learn proper communication, goals, budgeting. Yea, there are a million reasons someone might end up single, but I feel like most of my generation is still unmarried into their 30s. Double income instead of doing everything alone, emotional support, taxation…

I think it’s an often overlooked aspect of permaculture potential. Relationship permaculture.  

If you have woodworking skills, access to supplies and a suburban lot you can presently use can you at least do some part time  prep for yourself?
Could you afford to start building yourself a tiny home? If you have one done then it opens up a chunk of cheaper land type options for you later since you would have a mini homestead to start with.
Between your work connections and ReStores, you should be able to source a good chunk of what you would need on the cheap.
If you can narrow down regions where you might be able to get a suitable, cheap land plot sometime soon, you can start learning about the types of plants you'll want. Starting from seed is so much cheaper than buying later and it could help you practice how to handle and propagate some of them.

Ideas:

1)  get free skids and make items people may want out of them.

2)  visit lumber mills and see if they have off cuts that you can turn into treasure.

I also have been looking to create my own work from home job.     I have bought a CNC, and a 3d printer to explore what options I could do with each, I am now close to buying a laser cutter.

Finding a niche of where your skills meet someone else's demand seems to be the ticket.

Hello, my recommendation is to scout around Missouri. Simply because the homesteading movement is strong there and it must be adopting a sustainable culture as a result. The barter economy and solidarity economy are important considerations. The rental and job market as you said. Honestly, moving to a place where community or perhaps greater community is thriving and functional may be more important than real estate prices or how big a parcel of land you managed to secure. Nice job on being debt-free. Personally, I think that is truly the meaning of 'off-grid', lol.
Good luck on your homesteading journey. It's always fun and exciting if you ask me. So go for it!

Edit: Whoops, had misread this in my mind as Missouri and not Missoula... Montana sounds good to me... I can't say I need much convincing. It's hot, humid, and a retiree's paradise here, in which all they want to do is go to the grocery store and relax, not to mention the land is at a premium. Just about the opposite of what I want at my age.

So, Missoula it is, it is settled then.

I may be doing yacht carpentry currently, and some custom woodworking, however, I am an aspiring baker as well. I may have a second job gig soon starting up my own bread company, including milling flour for a local hospital and such. That would be quite nice... As much as I'd like to move to Missouri ASAP and begin homesteading, having further funds is necessary. I doubt such an opportunity would magically arise again in Missouri.

Although, while living in Florida, I am not opposed to visiting, buying land, perhaps even buying a house, since I can live here in Florida with family.

Jeff Steez wrote:

I may be doing yacht carpentry currently, and some custom woodworking, however, I am an aspiring baker as well. I may have a second job gig soon starting up my own bread company, including milling flour for a local hospital and such.

I am so happy for you. You have made some big changes and have gotten some important balls rolling--you have not let your constraints keep you from building a good life for yourself.

A virtual toast to you! Good luck with all these wonderful things you've gotten going in 2024!

It will still take a miracle. For my generation, especially starting where I am so late in the game at age 29, hard work is no longer enough due to inflation. You must be clever, which I... Am unfortunately not so!

You're doing great if you have something saved at age 29. Make sure it's earning some interest, at least. You don't want it sitting there earning nothing. If nothing else, you can earn 5.25% in a RobinHood Gold account.

It's alright, but it isn't much. I mean... Yea, let's say I managed to save $10,000... Then what? How can I efficiently turn that into a home on land? It took me quite a while to save that $10,000 after general life expenses, taxes, and everything else.

I wish I could've purchased a house 20 years ago. As it stands, I have simply no hope of ever owning a home making $25/hour with rental prices at nearly $2,000-$3,000 where I live.

Jeff Steez wrote:So, Missoula it is, it is settled then.

Jeff Steez wrote: I have simply no hope of ever owning a home making $25/hour with rental prices at nearly $2,000-$3,000 where I live.

I thought you were settled on moving to Montana..?

In five minutes of looking I found a job and a nearish piece of land you could build on.

It sounds like you need to figure out what's most important to you and then act on that. Maybe spend less time on thinking about all the things that aren't perfect.

Christopher Weeks wrote:

Jeff Steez wrote:So, Missoula it is, it is settled then.

Jeff Steez wrote: I have simply no hope of ever owning a home making $25/hour with rental prices at nearly $2,000-$3,000 where I live.

I thought you were settled on moving to Montana..?

In five minutes of looking I found a job and a nearish piece of land you could build on.

It sounds like you need to figure out what's most important to you and then act on that. Maybe spend less time on thinking about all the things that aren't perfect.

I reviewed the post multiple times and became rather confused. I could've sworn the first time I read it, it said Missouri... then I reviewed it again and thought it said Missoula... Now I see today that it says Missouri... And yet there's no edit on the post. As you can see, that was where my brain was at, at the time.

I guess I don't understand how I am to build something on land if rent looks to be nearly 1/2 my income in any given area in any reasonable amount of time? I guess in any given job maybe by the time you're 90 you can manage to save up enough for a downpayment on a mortgage. That isn't exactly what I'm gong for.

I know my job/career path isn't magnificent but it's skilled work that still can't support me very well. I can probably manage to save about $10,000 per year after rent, car expenses, and everything else, MAX.

Am I supposed to return to college for 4 years to learn a new skill, losing 4 years worth of income while still having to pay living expenses and tuition? I just don't really understand how anyone manages to do this stuff (RIGHT NOW, starting from near scratch with the statistics to back up the claims, not 20 years ago).

I don't really care whether you meant Missouri or Montanna, the point is, I thought you were heading out of Florida for someplace that better met your needs. I suspect that's what you really need to do -- or make peace with living the way you can where you are, if staying is more important.

I made a lot of sacrifices too. I went the path of corporate whore and got stuck doing that for 25 years before I could buy land. But I bought a little shitbox of a house on the edge of a bad neighborhood using a city-program that was established to help low income people buy homes so that they didn't all become rentals. It was $38,500 in 1994. I sold it for $51k five years later and used the equity as down-payment on a bigger, nicer house. Sold that and bought a cheaper house, putting the difference into a brokerage account. Fifteen years later, I bought 20 acres. I get it...no one wants to wait 20 years for their dream, but it was the only path that I could figure out, so I took it. You have a different set of options, but I'm seeing several yacht carpenter jobs available from Florida to the Great Lakes to coastal Maine and you have a pocket full of cash. Seems like you have options.

ETA: I'm not entirely ignorant of the starter market. My kids are 22 and 29 and they're finding their way. Neither of them earns $25 per hour.

ETA2: You can rent an apartment and save your $10k per year, or you can buy a patch of land and live in the back of your truck, or a yurt, or an old school bus. There are tradeoffs.

I'm not opposed to entry level (home) carpenter positions rather than yachts, because that position can be employed anywhere in the USA, I've also been researching timber framing positions, logging positions, general woodworking/entry level cabinetmaking positions. I really don't care anymore. I've been researching the entire USA for jobs then of course having to research rental prices, commute distances, it is not easy to get up and move but I'm about to combust living in Florida for a moment longer.

Maybe before the month ends I'll just rent a U-Haul, throw a dart on the American map and go, because I have savings enough to rent somewhere for a year doing absolutely nothing (or buy land and live in a tent). It would not be wise to spend my savings that way, I have a little bit invested at this point gaining interest in my portfolio, but if I'm going to be stuck as a renter for however long, I might as well go rent wherever the heck I want to live.

I've got a lady I love quite a bit to plan for, she's... a sensitive girl, I know that she would prefer a traditional home. I however, am rough, I did my stint in remote Kodiak, Alaska last year, I'm not afraid of living in a tent for the most part while I do whatever. However, like you said, trade offs. I enjoy making electronic music for instance. I do not expect to make money posting videos of my music on YouTube, but there's an opportunity cost there, it removes the possibility at least.

Thanks for the insight. This is not an easy game to play.