making cider vinegar from pomace- share your knowledge with me

That's it! I have 6 half gallon jars, filled loosely with pomace from the weekend's pressing, then topped with water. I'm thinking I should add a tablespoon or so of sugar to each jar and cover with fabric/filter...then at some point I strain it before it sits longer.

Am I on the right track? In the past I made vinegars with fully ripe fruit by filling jars with fruit (peaches or Concord grapes usually) and topping with water. It grows a mother and gets acidic but I could probably change my technique and get a much better end result.

We'll see how this goes...I have 8 jars about 2/3 loosely full of pomace, filled to the top with water, and I added a tablespoon of sugar to each and covered. Our cider seemed especially sweet this year. They are going fizzy pretty quick.

I'll still take your advice though!

Sorry M - no advice to give, but I'm reading your experiment with great interest. I'd really like to make some homemade apple cider vinegar and there are tons of apples around this year!

A friend has an electric apple juicer. It leaves a bin of apple bits which generally got to the chickens, but I'm thinking I should use with water as you mention. However, the juicer also leaves a thick layer of brown froth on top of the juice that comes out the other exit of the juicer. Do you think that brown froth might contain some of the microbes needed to generate the vinegar?

I have read somewhere that to make Apple Cider Vinegar, you really need to make the Apple cider first as a separate step, and then the vinegar microbes ingest the alcohol and poop out vinegar ( CH3COOH ). The problem is that if I do this as two steps, there may be some demand for the Cider for direct consumption, not to mention the time and fussing required.

Hopefully, your approach will work!

A few years back, I  did vinegar from apple cores and peels. I'm pretty sure the cider part was skipped. Maybe this was the thread I used for instructions?

https://permies.com/t/16480/Making-apple-cider-vinegar

I've done it with pear cores and peeling too. I hope to do a batch of callery pears this fall...

It should work starting with pomace and water. I've done it in the past following the instructions in the post Joylynn linked to, using peels and cores leftover after making applesauce. I did add a bit of mother from a purchased bottle of ACV. I've also (accidentally!) made kefirgar from neglected water kefir. It didn't taste as good as fruit vinegars, but was fine for skin and hair care and cleaning use.

We did get about 15 gallons of cider so I can make vinegar with it but my family really loves to drink it. Some people call the type with peels and cores "apple scrap vinegar." Usually we have more pomace left than the chickens really care for. I can give some to goats and sheep, but I'm hopeful that humans can use some too! It should have more of the cider flavor than cores and peels method....though our scratter and press are so effective, it's pretty dry. Some folks would rehydrate the mash and press again for a weak cider (ciderkin) but I was ready to clean up and put away the press. I think ciderkin could also make good vinegar.

I'll check out that link- thanks!

Jane Mulberry wrote:kefirgar

Lol Jane, I was sounding this out thinking it was some different language before I read further

Hello!
I’ve tried to ad ACV from apple scraps to my homesteading cache the last few seasons and it’s been so- so. I have 2 half gallon ball jars wrapped and brewing on the counter as we speak. The last few days have been very fragrant in my kitchen as the apples start to ferment and break down! I’m on about week 2 I think. Hoping for a good batch this time. Here’s the recipe I’m using.
2 TBSP Sugar per 2 Cups of water over apples. Do that till covered then weigh down with a smaller jar, cheese cloth the top. Here you go: https://wellnessmama.com/recipes/apple-cider-vinegar/#wprm-recipe-container-222153
I also add a few splashes of the acv (with the mother) that is currently almost empty to the new batches to help get it going.

I don't have apple scraps or cider... but I have tons of crab apples!  So I am currently trying first batch ever.   Have 2 gallon(ish) glass cookie jars filled 3/4 with halved apples.  Covered with water / sugar at ratio of 1T per cup.  Covered with cheesecloth.   One jar had weights and other did not.   The weights ended up being more of a pain in the butt because little apples would escape on top of them,  so I removed.   I left it alone initially for about 2 or 3 days and got a bit of mold growth.  I skimmed it off and have been giving it a stir daily now for about 2.5 weeks.  On Halloween I will strain it off and let it sit several more weeks.   It is nicely fizzy.  The only place I could find to keep them was a dark corner of my bedroom,  so it is delightfully boozy/fruity in there!

We pressed our apples a couple of weeks ago and have about 21L of cider brewing (we add wine yeast but nothing else). We do this each year and when the cider is brewed, we bottle about half of it drinking and use the other half for making ACV (by adding some of the previous batch of vinegar with mother). It makes spectacularly good vinegar and strong.
The pomace is so dry and flavourless when it comes out of the press that it’s not much use as an ingredient. The chickens eat a little of it but we spread the bulk on one or other of the veg beds as a top grade fertiliser.

Thing is, vinegar is produced by bacteria that only eat alcohol and alcohol is mainly produced by microbes that only eat sugar. So the ’strength’ (level of acetic acid) of the final vinegar will depend on the level of sugars in the stuff you start out with. I have a feeling most of the sugars will have left with the cider but there is nothing that says you can’t add sugar (or honey or molasses…) and get some kind of vinegar in the end. If it tastes good and sour it will be absolutely safe to use for human consumption.

Thing is, vinegar is produced by bacteria that only eat alcohol and alcohol is mainly produced by microbes that only eat sugar.

This is correct. The process you want to stimulate is first an alcoholic yeast based fermentation followed by an acetobacter fermentation to produce vinegar. Acetobacters need both alcohol and oxygen to produce vinegar. But too much alcohol is a problem. Acetobacters really don't work well above 10% alcohol and do better in the 5% range. Any fruit must that has a sugar content giving a specific gravity of around 1.040 to 1.050 should work well. Pressed apple juice usually falls in this range as well.

You can either rely on a wild yeast fermentation or simply pinch a little bread yeast into the must. Let the must ferment and produce alcohol (about 5 days). When the alcohol fermentation really slows down or stops, add a little vinegar mother to the must and give it a stir. At this point it needs oxygen so the acetobacters can produce vinegar. Oxygenate (stir it up) every few days. Vinegarization should start in a few days but can take as long as 30 days to really complete. Start tasting the vinegar every few days after the first week or two to gauge its strength.

Note that adding other natural sugars to the cider must can generate great flavors. Wild blackberries are one of my favorites but any virtually any fruit will work. Also make sure that the must is fairly acidic before you start the alcohol fermentation. A PH of 3.5 to 4.5 is best. Pressed apple juice naturally falls in this range  (hence the reason for so many apple cider vinegars). But if the must is not acidic enough, a tablespoon or two of lemon juice will generally correct the problem.

Vinegar is one of the easiest things to make in the kitchen. It really just makes itself as soon as you give it the right environment. it's also really addictive. Have fun with it.

Joe Fox wrote:The process you want to stimulate is first an alcoholic yeast based fermentation followed by an acetobacter fermentation to produce vinegar. Acetobacters need both alcohol and oxygen to produce vinegar.

Jay Angler wrote:I have read somewhere that to make Apple Cider Vinegar, you really need to make the Apple cider first as a separate step, and then the vinegar microbes ingest the alcohol and poop out vinegar ( CH3COOH ). The problem is that if I do this as two steps, there may be some demand for the Cider for direct consumption, not to mention the time and fussing required.

First of all, to clarify for anyone out there reading this thread who is unfamiliar with the process, when we talk about making "Apple Cider" in this context, we are talking about hard cider, i.e. alcoholic cider.  And yes, I would totally be tempted to syphon off some of this alcoholic "vinegar stock" for direct consumption! ; )  Big fan of hard cider here.

For sure, the posts quoted above describe the traditional process for making vinegar, whether that be apple cider vinegar  (ACV) or wine vinegar or rice wine vinegar or whatever: first ferment alcohol using yeast, then feed that alcohol to the appropriate bacteria to produce acetic acid.  Which latter process, as Joe pointed out, requires oxygen.

Doubtless the production of vinegar as we know it was an unintentional off-shoot of the alcohol industry.  When the hard cider or wine they were brewing got contaminated and exposed to a bit too much air, it turned sour.  Selling off that "ruined" product for cheap, people soon learnt that it was a valuable cooking ingredient on its own.

However, there is absolutely NO NEED to follow this traditional process, except for tradition's sake.  You can totally make ACV in one step.  I've done it.  In fact, I'm on my tenth batch or so by now.  And the resulting product tastes just as good as any other ACV I've ever used.  If anyone out there claims the traditional two step process produces better vinegar - and I don't even know that anyone does claim this - then you couldn't prove it by me.

I have not yet experimented with pomace/apple scrap vinegar, which is the original focus of this thread, because right now I don't have that feedstock.  I just started by buying a gallon jug of fresh cider, which if you source it carefully can still be purchased for half the price of the same volume of good, raw ACV.  I pitched a packet of purchased ale yeast and added some raw ACV (I like Braggs).  You should always brew vinegar in a container that is low and wide.  To maximize air exposure, and thus oxygen interchange, you want a wide mouth so to create the largest possible ratio of surface area to total volume.  I didn't have such a container handy, so instead I split my cider into multiple small jars, which served the same function of increasing surface area.  "Brewing" vinegar comprises nothing more than filling your containers, covering them with cloth to keep dust and flies out, and setting them aside for a month.

Two things happened.  First, the added yeast and bacteria worked simultaneously to convert sugar to alcohol to acetic acid, and after a month I had lovely vinegar.  Second, the little beasties combined to grow a SCOBY.  So now, my already-simple-and-cheap process is even simpler and cheaper.  I just chuck the SCOBYs from the last batch into some fresh apple cider, recover, and brew anew.

To be more precise, I cut my SCOBYs into chunks and toss those into fresh apple cider for the next batch.  As anyone experienced in brewing kombucha knows, your SCOBY multiplies, growing fatter and forming baby SCOBYs.  You only need a little for reuse, so you harvest a certain amount of excess SCOBY with every batch along with your vinegar.  I throw my excess into the fridge, where it seems to keep fresh indefinitely, and blend them into fruit smoothies.  I might also feed them to livestock if I had any.