Win a copy of Permaculture Design Companion this week in the Permaculture Design forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Mike Jay Haasl
  • Burra Maluca
garden masters:
  • James Freyr
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Steve Thorn
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Dave Burton
  • Pearl Sutton

permaculture kitchen

 
Posts: 9
Location: Northern CA Coastal zone 10/a/b
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Once upon a time, I had the run of 365 acres, but at that time, I knew very little about land and its potential. Now I work in a small company, wear lots of hats as a network engineer, book keeper, tech support, HR admin, payroll specialist, inventory analyst, generally "keeping the wheels on." I'm no scientist, but I suggest all permaculture laboratories record data, to help make the case for change, and to move public opinion and perceptions forward about production in the landscape.

How many ways can we use data?
Can we trace the flow, from the the harvest areas of each property, as products funnel into pre-prep, for either immediate use or storage, where dedicated space and the tools necessary are found for recording preliminary data related to the harvest? Such notes might include: area on the property from which the harvest was taken, and species/weight/volume/season, other pertinent observations about the season, weather, etc. that formed the harvest, results obtained from new techniques. Include here a seed saving/processing area, collections of containers, markers, journals. Notes from all areas can be gathered later, processed and consolidated (during winter reviews?) to help inform future planting/development decisions.

Into and out of the pantries, cold cellars, or larders, similarly record: the consumption, up or down, by the group of particular foodstuffs, and positive or negative reviews, for later analysis in the same manner: what are we eating that we like, don't like, are curious about, is worth further effort, should be discontinued, improved from last season, can be improved upon further, etc. The better the feedback loop, the more efficient the expansion and development.

Extend throughout the landscape and homestead. Record voice, sketch and draw, include short video clips, transcribe.
Periodically gather the data in, and either casually or formally analyze it, to grow an organic, ever evolving relational database to paint the big picture. What better place, than around the kitchen tables and prep areas, to hash it all out? Present a few quick notes at the start of meals, "These scarlet runner beans are from x location, they seemed to produce better this year because we did xy instead of z." "We only got a few artichokes because we think the location is not quite suitable, note to try and establish some on the south end, near the rocky wall." "The bacon is finished smoking, and is from x batch where the pigs were permitted this year to forage over by the stream." Or just have a dining room journal, for a more casual response from thoughtful diners.

I have been following permies for a few years now; such inspiring stuff! Thanks very much for all you do.
 
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The permaculture kitchen......so this is the subject that inspires me to try to participate. I have been following and listening and enjoying these things you folk" talk about all the time". I have gardens, I cook, I help bees take care of themselves ,for many years now. I like the way everyone talks about " permaculture",it is much better than talking about bad things that a single individual has little realistic hope of changing on a scale as grand as the problems themselves.
And if I may I would like to suggest the thought that in the kitchen as well as the garden there exists traditions that are always evolving. To discuss the idea of a "permaculture kitchen" in a proper context for me it is imperitive to to relate to those ever evolving kitchens and cooking itself in its basic and clear form. For example, if say I was a cook in a 12th century castle , the food I would be serving would certaintly be "organic" by modern definition. Yet at the same time I would not have any cook books, nor sinks, fridges,freezers, or stove for that matter. Yet the food that was served would have come from the surrounding land and been mostly seasonal and less toxic than the best of what is on offer today.
When I read the other comments I hear very well meaning folk but also sense that there exists a lack of realistic general observation, based on experienced knowledge. I have struggled with this for many years as everyone, because they eat and have cooked for themselves, thinks they can cook. It is great that everyone tries, yet need does not constitute clarity and efficient method.
I eat meat. but not often, once, twice a week, in small quantities. It is good for me and the planet. I often cook for others, and when I cook for others who eat meat much more than I and I do not use meat no one notices that meat is not included. For me this is a big issue despite its seemingly simple context. And it comes down to fundamental skills and understanding of the products at hand. An onion a carrot a stalk of celery are all grown in the garden using different methods to produce fine examples . The kitchen is no different. They all posses aspects in their nature that when respected bring their qualities to the fore.
"You can do whatever you like, as long as you follow the rules!" The mantra of my training is as true as ever. Even though it took me years to really understand what was being said.
I see posts concerning the idea of a low standing burner and giant pots to make it easier to do preserving. This I question. Why if you are doing that much preserving would you not just save your money and buy a plumbed in steamer? What do you do with all those giant pots when not preserving? The continued use of energy in the fire to boil, the cleaning the storing of the pots . The cost of the jars and their care. The space for their storage.
Good cooks, like good gardeners and good beekeepers keep things simple. They observe carefully what they are dealing with and deal with the task in hand directly, useing the tools of their age to achieve their needs. The cook in the castle did not make jams and jellies, they dried their fruits, stored them carefully and when they wanted a compote took a handful of the fruit and made it. I struggle to understand why someone would go through the trouble and expense of buying jars and tops for fermented vegetables, when they could be made and stored in high quality low cost food grade plastic containers that held large quantities. If you are making for say 1 cabbage yes ok, but if you are feeding a group regularly and you have a good patch of cabbages 1 big barrel, makes a better product, and will keep the crowd going till the next seasons patch is ready.
The methods of the past, got us here in good fiddle and the irony for me is the people of the past would have been in heaven given the tools and varieties of food that are available to us .
The kitchen like the garden and the hive are places where observation and need are balanced by the turn of seasons bounty, good, bad and indifferent. Show me your larder, and you show me your health and your wealth. Your foolishness and your wisdom. It is not about lists, it is about, what do you have? What are you growing? What do you like? The "kitchen" itself should be of the simplest most uncluttered area that can transform itself to the needs of the season or the day and be so easy to clean that is seems unfair to others that might look in. The post war culture that created the kitchen which most people expect is ineffectual if one hopes for economy,quality and joy.




 
Posts: 61
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Woah!

Paul, it's been a while since I've seen a new article from you (they are excellent potential permaculturist fly-paper, as I can attest), but this is an excellent topic for one, as I think it has great cross-over potential to a variety of audiences (who love food, cooking, kitchens, etc).

You could turn on a lot of minds on this topic.
 
Joseph Walker
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So pleased to hear your reply. Over the years I have seen so many keen gardeners with so much produce that they were not able to process to full effect. Have often considered the idea . The greatest stumbling block is always the same. People do what they see around them,or what they have been told is correct.
The person who grows beans each year and gets an ok harvest soon change their methods when the new person next door arrives and ends up with double the crop with half the work.
But when it comes to the kitchen.... the relative details relating to economy and quality are not so easily or naturally taken on board.
 
Posts: 71
Location: Tennesse, an hour west of Nashville, zone 7
2
hunting chicken
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm skeptical about a low burner. Even if there aren't kids around, that sounds like it would be prone to accidents, especially because it would be at a rather sensitive level. I like to use my canner outside so it doesn't get too hot in the kitchen, which brings me to...

<in your best Bob Barker voice> an adjoining outside kitchen area, complete with rocket stove. Just a short walk away, an area devoted to butchering with table, sink, and places to hang.
 
Joseph Walker
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In regard to the children, yes I understand your point, though I prefer greatly to educate and dictate policy in the kitchen.... in the nicest possobile way. My children loved to cook beside me when they were small, standing on a sturdy box to compensate for the counter and stove height, the rules were explained as were the dangers, I was always next to them and we shared many precious moments, without negative incident.
In regard to the outside butchering and canning space it is a great idea though it must be protected from insects, especially flies. A beautiful product can be wasted without you even knowing. It is the same for me when I extract honey......the room must be bee proof!
 
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Walker wrote:In regard to the outside butchering and canning space it is a great idea though it must be protected from insects, especially flies.



The outdoor abattoir doesn't need to be screened in though.
 
Posts: 58
2
purity forest garden hunting books chicken food preservation
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Cast. Iron. Skillet.
 
Joseph Walker
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I can understand that threw out history many positive results have been achieved butchering outside. But for me , given the choice, with our knowledge of modern science I would always choose a clean ,controlled and temperature cool atmosphere to break down an animal. This in mind- I do and have often plucked birds and bled out and skinned pigs before they arrive, outside. Though always working in a tidy and respectful manner, well organized beforehand with a point of collection for feathers , blood etc... This is also taking into consideration the difference between well cared for domestic animals and wild animals. Where I live I am often asked to help with breaking down wild boar, of which there are many. And most of the time the coats and anal regions are infested with maggots before one begins. For me personally "due care" is something I take seriously, as theses beautiful creatures deserve the time and effort to do things in a civilised, concise manner. The mentality one begins breaking down a animal of that size is very important , as there is a lot to do if one is to make the most of every piece. A clean, cool, controlled atmosphere makes a job very well done, for the animal in question and myself and the products to be produced.
 
Posts: 131
Location: McMinnville Oregon
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I came in a bit late but devoured this thread with some degree of gusto. I'm a draftsman and want permaculture design (or at least the transfer to pretty black and white pictures to be MY focus).

I designed restaurant kitchens for 15 years using commercial equipment, government regulations and with an eye on safety, quality and profit.

A small, home permaculture kitchen doesn't need to focus on most of these things, and they shouldn't, other than a few pieces of equipment. A good grinder, slicer, knives, cutting boards, mixer, food processor, stove etc.

As we get into kitchens that need to serve more people you need to look at equipment more suitable for larger quantities and tasks more suitable for longer term storage and production. Steam kettles are quick and efficient, but a braising kettle can fry, griddle, boil, steam and yes wet bath can using ball jars. If you want to produce food to sell at commercial levels you need to consider the requirements of the FDA and the state you're in, you can't just say it's organic, tastes good and we eat it and haven't died. A good, large scale permaculture kitchen should feed the people and be designed to code so you don't have to face the issue of the "department of making you sad people", because they don't give a shit how good your product is.

Low burners... VERY cool, don't get me wrong but you have to be very carefully indoors, it's very similar to a wok burner but now you're putting it down near the side of a stove or the refrigerator or a cabinet. Those burners are designed to get very hot and the material surfaces may not be designed to take the heat or know how to direct it up, instead of forward into your apron or jeans or backwards into a pained wall with a under width of sheetrock. Please take it outside into the middle of the yard if you're using oil, If you're boiling/canning give it a heavier base, maybe some 4x4 blocks and secure your gas lines out of the way.

Chef Seth, got more ideas on "commercial equipment" for a larger permaculture kitchen? I know firewood makes this difficult but I've done some great wood-fired oven installs. LP/Nat Gas doesn't quite fit for long term but they are great for production and electricity fits in a few markets (but not off-grid, they would suck your batteries dry in a matter of minutes).

Rick
 
Joseph Walker
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Good to see the tone of an experienced person in regard to kitchen design. From experience I know that, without doubt simplicity and cleanliness can not be a better starting point, no matter what your needs or hopes, or energy sources. The atmosphere must be flexible......as the seasons. Threw out the year different tasks need to be dealt with that require different focus. Flexability promotes economy and quality.
Anyone starting to build or rebuild a kitchen can help themselves greatly by devoting great attention and a majority of their budget to 1. the flooring choice 2. the walls from the waist down and the inclusion of an oversized floor drain that can be easily cleaned. With these in place, tables, stoves , cupboard styles all come and go over time. This holds true whether you are in a off grid shelter or a palace in the middle of a metropolis.
 
Posts: 95
Location: Berkeley, CA
28
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey permies, and permutations,

I'm loving the ideas and imagining what your kitchens look like. I am also thinking it would be great if people started posting photos of their kitchens.

I've started a list of the elements in a permaculture kitchen and will add in people's ideas, so keep 'em coming!

We have been putting out some good food this week videotaping how to make different preserved goods. Today we did kimchi, ginger bugs, and vinegar pickled daikon radish from the hugel bed on the property. We will cover the ten+ forms of preserving the harvest.

Anyway, here, below, is the list so far, so enjoy.
Seth Peterson,
Your Local Larder

ELEMENTS IN A PERMACULTURE KITCHEN (partial list)

Brewery, continuous brewing, medicinal beers
Brine barrel
Butchery station
Cast iron pans
Chalk board / message board
Cheese cave or cheese wofati, salumi,
Chefs and cooks
Cider press / apple corer
Coffee grinder and brew system
Cookbooks
Community connection
Compost pile
Counter tops
Cupboards
Dining table
Distillery, still, hydrosols
Disinfectants: GSE (grapefruit seed extract), vinegar,
Dishwasher station and dish rack
Drying yard, drying yard, solar, dryer, solar dehydrator
Electricity
Extracts, tinctures
Fresh herbs and drying rack
Food sources
Flatware and plate ware
Flour mill, blender, food processor, grinder,
Fly swatter
Gappers doing soul and labor
Grey water
Hay box oven
Healthy fats
Herbs: shelf
Honey bees
Incubator for yogurt, cheese, salumi, etc.
Ingredients: seasonal, stock,
Jars of all sizes and purposes
Kitchen tools: grater, peeler, spoons spatulas
Kitchen garden connection: fruits, veggies, herbs, mushrooms
Kitchen tablet with KIM
Knives and sharpening stone
Leftovers and intentional leftovers
Legal basis
Lights
Master health tonic
Mead ('the meady bits')
Mortar & pestle
Music
No plastics, toxic gick
Labels and FIFO
Pantry & larder
Prepping
Culinary philosophy and theoretical basis
Pots & pans: cast iron, stainless steel, crock pots, soup/stock pots sauté pans
Preservation parties / days and equipment, preservation calendar
Professional refrigerator and freezer combo
Recycle
Rolling can shelf like in stores
Routine cleaning service (monthly house cleaner to set the floor of how dirty thing get)
Root cellar
Spray bottles
Solar oven
Solar dryer/dehydrator
Storage areas: pantry, larder, shelves, root cellar,
Stove: gas, RMH, new electric, induction, sous vide
Sauces, vinaigrettes, condiments
Sauerkraut crocks
Sourdough starter
Seasonal recipe calendar
Summer/outside kitchen
Spice mixes: 'Italian, Mexican, Asian'
Tea and brewer
Traditional cooking / Weston A. Price
Value added commissary kitchen for farms to make cabbage into kraut
Ventilation system
Mother cultures: kombucha, vinegar, cheese, butter, salami, miso, saki, etc.
Waiste bins
Walk in / fridge. One door is fridge in kitchen with shelves.
Water, running, pump, foot or solar powered
Wine rack, barrels, equipment
Whey jar and raw milk jars
Worm bin
Zones of accumulation
1000 yr soup pot / continues stock pot

 
Rick Howd
Posts: 131
Location: McMinnville Oregon
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Great list for a pKitchen (it's not registered, feel free to use it). You reminded me of so many things I have let slip and yet so many I do and don't consider the same way.

The only thing that confused me on the list; got some details? Kitchen tablet with KIM

I would love a good kitchen app, always wanted to program one that is better than the ones I've seen. I don't know KIM (I can't seem to find it) but if it's good, how and why?
 
Joseph Walker
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Wow! looking at that list makes me feel old. I do like that beer is listed as medicinal.
There are many things listed that I just don't include in my kitchen, as I have so little in the kitchen I guess most folks would not see it as that.
I prefer a small room where I make my beer, wine and mead and even distill alcohol. All the tools are the same and the atmosphere is special in its own right, and I find it very easy to maintain the needed controls.
My fermenting barrels live in the larder, temperature is correct and does not vary, which I find important . The same for my cultures and starters.
The solar dryer is outside.The compost pile and worm bin are outside, though in the last two years I have moved away from the compost and the kitchen relationship, instead I installed a waste disposal in a second sink, the out flow does not go into the drain but outside into a basket sieve where I collect all the ground debris. The tiny pieces, with increased surface area are loved by the chickens and they actually get upset if I put a basket or two in the worm bin, for this sink I use water from the roof I collect to make mead as there is far more than I need.
The ventilation system is an interesting one, I originally installed a proper system, but this I got rid of. The fan was weak and loud and keeping it clean was time I did not have, nor interest in doing. The new system which I like much better and works much better , is a small window, with a sturdy removable screen at the top of the wall behind the stove. The screen fits in the dishwasher. I am so happy with it.
Things like the tea and coffee and the milling of flour , I use a side board in the dining room with a small sink adjacent. They are the kind of things that folks like to help with and it keeps traffic out of the cooking and preparation area which I prefer to be small. The two are connected by a waist level window pass.It also enables people to peel carrots, onions, garlic and all such tasks without actually entering the kitchen . Yeah I am a tyrant, but a very nice one and it is only because it is for the best. And when someone helps with these tasks and shows a natural economy, and skill, it is nice if I invite them in if they want to help with other things. It also allows me to be polite when I can see that it would only be detrimental otherwise.
The books and all that stay in the dining room, they have no place in the kitchen for me. Better to be clear before one begins.
I like very much your term "intentional leftovers" If the oven is on for an hour and a self is empty it is foolish not to roast some vegetables or such that can be used the next day. Or as my son would say" Hey Dad, Look, you have the space to bake a cake.."
And finally I must say you are doing very well to afford a cleaner,Bravo!
 
pollinator
Posts: 4328
Location: Anjou ,France
240
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
One does wonder how big this kitchen will need to be

David
 
pollinator
Posts: 254
Location: Vermont, annual average precipitation is 39.87 Inches
39
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think KIM must mean Kitchen Instruction Manual.

This list made me think/wonder about a few things.

1) My own kitchen seems to be spread all over the house. The typical kitchen is the location for everyday meal prep and most heat cooking. I also do my brine pickling in this space. The continuous Kombucha system is down the hall in the guest room on a handy counter I think the previous owners of this home built in to hold a TV. In the basement there is a spare fridge and freezer for bulk purchases of meat, cheese, and other perishables. There are also shelves and metal trash bins for canned and dry goods. I also recently had a cold room built which is humid enough to count as a root cellar. Outside so far there is only a propane grill but I have dreams of creating an outdoor kitchen with a rocket stove, a cold smoke house, and perhaps a bread oven.

2) Fermentation zones - Since different types of fermentation use different types of yeasts and bacteria it may be wise to keep different areas for different kinds of fermented foods. This may be less important now that we understand how fermentation happens, but if you want to make a wild yeast sourdough bread you might not want your wild yeast cider experiment to be nearby!
 
Posts: 274
Location: Central Maine - Zone 4b/5a
26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
All of the above! Plus, a good flow, with thought put into the arrangement of the major appliances and which tools live where, so that you can put your hand on what you need when you need it. An easy transition to kitchen garden, root cellar, and summer/outdoor kitchen, as well as outdoor dining space. Counters with big enough lips to them to attach the oat roller/apple peeler/food mill. Two sinks preferably, one for washing veggies and dishes, and a smaller one for hand washing and filling up pitchers. A dark, cool space for dry goods, a well-lighted, visible space for beautiful dishes and bowls.

I personally want a kitchen where the major cooking area is not too big for one person, but with extra prep space for family and friends to help or hang out in.

I want to open up the wall between my kitchen and dining room (just the top half), put a bar on the dining room side for sitting at, make the kitchen more part of the rest of the living space.

I love the lower burner idea for canning! I am pretty tired of lifted canning pots filled with water and glass from sink to stove. Let's add that one of the double sinks should be lower as well (I've seen some beautiful slate sinks with this arrangement, almost like a utility sink in your laundry room).

 
Posts: 283
Location: coastal southeast North Carolina
4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Man, I love that list...and that is "partial"...

Here are the ones I'd particularly like to hear more about:

Brine barrel
Distillery, still, hydrosols
Master health tonic (please explain!!!)
Preservation parties / days and equipment, preservation calendar (preservation calendar? please expound on this!!)
Sauerkraut crocks
Seasonal recipe calendar
Traditional cooking / Weston A. Price (I do some of their stuff but also Paleo AIP....glad to see you interested in the WAPF!)
Value added commissary kitchen for farms to make cabbage into kraut
Mother cultures: kombucha, vinegar, cheese, butter, salami, miso, saki, etc.
Whey jar and raw milk jars
Worm bin
Zones of accumulation
1000 yr soup pot / continues stock pot
 
Joseph Walker
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I agree, a few things there I do not understand. But I can say a worm bin is a really good thing. Much better use of uncooked vegetable scraps than a compost bin, I hope someday everyone has one, give it a google, well worth the time and trouble .
For distilling you can use homemade wine, which is easy to make and you can make it from many fruits and veg. You do not have to worry about the quality of the flavour as it is the alcohol you want. 12 litres of wine will give you just under a litre of alcohol and you can use a pressure cooker for the reduction but I like useing an Air Still. They are not to expensive, the only drawback being the reduction basin is small and one has to keep an eye on it and continue to refill. The other advantage to the air still is you can also make your own essential oils. The cultures can all be googled and are in fact old time staples from various parts of the world. I am also kinda curious about the "Master Health Tonic". The rest does not really connect with me.
 
Rick Howd
Posts: 131
Location: McMinnville Oregon
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Ghislaine de Lessines wrote:I think KIM must mean Kitchen Instruction Manual.



Great suggestion, it might even be what he was thinking. I haven't heard the term before, I've been playing with timber/lumber the last 10 years and restaurants were tech savvy if they had a FAX machine and a computer for email.

Kitchens should have multiple zones just like any good permaculture design, they just need to consider the variables and stack the needs and outcomes in each zone. Commercial kitchens are laid out in zones for prep/cooking/dry and refrigerated storage/dishwashing/serving. They all make financial sense as we build these installations.

Home kitchens have more blending of zones and equipment because of space and cost considerations.

Let's crowd source a Permaculture kitchen and I'll draw it, What do you want? Describe the equipment and your spacing/arrangement suggestions, I'll only make changes if they violate US or state codes that I'm aware of.
 
steward
Posts: 3999
Location: Wellington, New Zealand. Temperate, coastal, sandy, windy,
97
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Seth Peterson wrote:Master health tonic


I wanna know too!
It sounds kinda like someone from one of those awesomely dubbed oldschool kung fu movies

I was thinking about the permaculture principles in relation to the kitchen,
and 'design from patterns to details' seems particularly relevant.
I have a tendency to head straight for the details while ignoring the big stuff, so this is a particular challenge for me.
I'm reminded of the 'golden triangle' of traditional kitchen design.
While things will be a bit different in a specifically designed permie kitchen;
I think versions of the fridge-stove-sink trinity still apply.

People have talked about zones; and I think zones, sectors and those quite 'macro' design elements are valuable tools at this stage.
Along with the fun details of course
 
pollinator
Posts: 318
Location: New Zealand
14
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A book I once read about kitchen design, as well as the triangle idea, also suggested considering how food flows through the kitchen. From garden or car to storage to preparation area to cooking to serving to table then clean up.
 
Posts: 19
3
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Seth Peterson wrote:

What cookbooks do you love??



More-With-Less Cookbook
http://store.mennomedia.org/More-with-Less-Cookbook-P317.aspx

It's a collection of new and old Mennonite recipes published in 1976 as a response to world food shortages. The best part about it is not the recipes, but the tidbits of advice from Mennonite women around the world on how to be more frugal in your kitchen. For example - that you can 1/3 the amount of sugar in any dessert recipe without affecting the structure?! There's even a chapter titled 'Gathering up the pieces' about how to use up leftovers in novel ways.

Also - a handbook is a wonderful idea. Over the years the community will develop a certain personality and culture and it would be very helpful for a new cook to be able to see what has worked well for past cooks in that particular situation.
 
steward
Posts: 3153
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
616
hugelkultur urban chicken food preservation bike bee
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Leila Rich wrote:

Seth Peterson wrote:Master health tonic


I wanna know too!



Me three! I could use a Master Health Tonic.

I've been liking a drink made by putting cucumber slices in a pitcher with lots of fresh mint leaves and water. No heat, just let the flavors come out into the water.
 
Joseph Walker
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well yeah.... Master health Tonic.... if it was worth listing, should be worth explaining, though I do not think I need it. Just eat freshly and plenty of fresh air and do what one does with joy seems to produce masterful results.
And at the risk of being pedantic , A sturdy table that has access on all sides, large sink or two with a stove in a small area that can be easily cleaned, detached from the dining area, moves with the seasons. A separate cool larder and if you are into brewing a little room for that. All theses plans and flows and zones support my position that most folks do not really get the quality and economy issue,despite the best intentions . Simplicity, cleanliness and flexibility have always been the keynotes ......and always will be. And despite the need that so many feel for the need for cookbooks the same holds true. What is in the garden and ready? What do you have? What have you put by? Most would be better off making vinegar from their apple peelings before they went to the animals or compost for example, it can be quite helpful to think in cycles...nature does.
 
Tina Paxton
Posts: 283
Location: coastal southeast North Carolina
4
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Walker wrote:Well yeah.... Master health Tonic.... if it was worth listing, should be worth explaining, though I do not think I need it. Just eat freshly and plenty of fresh air and do what one does with joy seems to produce masterful results.



Fresh air and joyful living are certainly important to health. But, many of us are having to deal with illness brought on either by the toxic world we live in or our previous toxic choices or both...thus, the need for carefully selected food and beverages geared to move us toward health.

Joseph Walker wrote:And at the risk of being pedantic , A sturdy table that has access on all sides, large sink or two with a stove in a small area that can be easily cleaned, detached from the dining area, moves with the seasons. A separate cool larder and if you are into brewing a little room for that. All theses plans and flows and zones support my position that most folks do not really get the quality and economy issue,despite the best intentions . Simplicity, cleanliness and flexibility have always been the keynotes ......and always will be. And despite the need that so many feel for the need for cookbooks the same holds true. What is in the garden and ready? What do you have? What have you put by? Most would be better off making vinegar from their apple peelings before they went to the animals or compost for example, it can be quite helpful to think in cycles...nature does.



Simple is definitely better. The ability to stack functions without cluttering a space or to avoid cluttering a space is important to design into a space. And, I agree with you about cookbooks not being as important...that we should cook more like a "Chopped Kitchen" -- what ingredients are available and what can I do with them? I do like to read and collect recipes, though. Rarely do I actually follow a recipe but by reading recipes I am able to tuck ideas into my mind about what goes with what. Right now, I am collecting recipes on preparing offal. Offal was not a part of my diet in the past but now I'm trying to include it. So, pate' recipes for chicken, rabbit, and duck livers are of interest... recipes for kidneys or heart....or jowl... I have no clue how to cook these parts of an animal so recipes fill in the missing information.

 
Leila Rich
steward
Posts: 3999
Location: Wellington, New Zealand. Temperate, coastal, sandy, windy,
97
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Seth Peterson wrote: imagining what your kitchens look like. I am also thinking it would be great if people started posting photos of their kitchens


My kitchen is identical to when I moved in, and any construction-level 'permieness' is basically because it's really old, small house.
A few permie things in no particular order:
small space, window over sink-it does a great job of sucking out steam etc,
big sink, drying rack, good pans, big cutting board, sharp knives within easy reach, a pantry at a good fermenting temperature, a fridge full of ferments,
a fire extinguisher (not permie, just sensible!)



 
Joseph Walker
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Oh, A fire extinguisher..... Good idea, makes me think I have been on my own to long, though it has never been an issue think I will take that on board!
In regard to the other post in relation to offal and pates....Chicken and rabbit are lean meats and require extra fat added if one wanted them to last longer and really are best if shared and eaten when fresh. When one adds the fat needed to preserve for longer periods the fat will dominate the delicate flavour of both... In regard to offal, I personally prefer kidneys, hearts and liver fresh. Great flavour and texture, the liver of birds and calfs in particular. Liver also makes wonderful pate on its own and again needs the extra fat added, for preservation and moisture. I often will make the liver pate in small pots with a fat layer on top as the flavour is something which I like very much but not everyday so this enables me to make a batch and keep on hand when wanted. When useing pork for pate, which is such a great and classic combination, I find the correct balance of fat, liver, and kidney along with the meat is very important not only for flavour but preservation. This for me is the best use of pork kidney and liver as both their flavours are best blended rather than separate and used fresh. What really gives a good pate is its character, is achieved by the fat content, method of cooking and the size of the grind. All variations are good and comes down to personnel choice, but one thing always holds true for all variations......When cutting up the meat, grinding and mixing, the colder the ingredients the better the final product . And no ...not freezing , but cold. This will always give you a well blended flavourful product that will keep well. Before I cook mine I always cook a spoonful before the rest to test the seasoning, the main batch is happy to wait in the cooler while I do this. The best method is to cook a teaspoon of the mixure in water, ie poach. It cools down quickly and allows a very accurate test for the final flavour. Do also consider the difference that exists in the fat of a pig. The fat that surrounds the kidney is special. Best for pastry and pies. When rendering the slower the better. When rendering the back and belly the more "meaty" the more flavour of pork. I use my meatiest bits in the grind for the pate.
If you have good quality beef available do consider sweetbreads and tripe. I always cook my sweetbreads first in acidulated water after cleaning for a few minutes then rise in cold water, before cooking. This done will always give you a beautiful product to cook with. Always eat the sweetbreads that day or the next. My favourite , breaded and fried,finished with lemon juice and parsley.
Tripe can often be obtained already cleaned but if not, repeated water baths of cold water will do the trick. When cut up into spoon size pieces and cooked with carrots,onion and celery and tomato paste this will pot up and be a stunning resource in your larder. If you want to make the tripe very, very special and wonderful, when cooking the tripe add a piece of the shank of a calf or young bull. I always cook the tripe slowly for at least 10 hours and even better 15. Let it cool in its own broth. Use plain water to begin, not stock..it will make its own, and a very special one indeed. For economies sake I use a slow cooker or as I see on this website what is called a "haybox" cooker. Traditionally this dish was cooked in the village bread oven when the bakers work for the day was done and left till the next morning when the oven was reheated for the next days bread. And I know everyone knows this, but....when useing the slow cooker or the "haybox" always makes sure that the ingredients are very hot...boiling, before entering either device. I hope this helps you a little on your way.
 
Posts: 198
14
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would like to see a fermenting cow hanging up somewhere in the vicinity of a permaculture kitchen
 
Seth Peterson
Posts: 95
Location: Berkeley, CA
28
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It has been darned busy round these parts with barely a chance to breathe. So here's a photo of a pleasant piece of pork from the two weeks ago pig butchery. Said swine was smoked after being brined. And said smoking was done with a rocket stove smoker. Said rocket heater was made by Matt, otherwise known as the Matt Hatter.

So, if you like this sort of thing. More to come....
Seth
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Porky pleasure coining the term 'porkgasm'
 
Julia Winter
steward
Posts: 3153
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
616
hugelkultur urban chicken food preservation bike bee
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Rocket stove smoker!!

I want a picture of that!
 
Rick Howd
Posts: 131
Location: McMinnville Oregon
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Julia Winter wrote:Rocket stove smoker!!

I want a picture of that!



Ditto, drawing the smoke off for smoking seems difficult, I'm good on the heat, I'm thinking a separate smoke box cooking off the heat of the main RH.
 
Julia Winter
steward
Posts: 3153
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
616
hugelkultur urban chicken food preservation bike bee
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
OK, I'm listening to the second podcast about the RMH innovators event, and now I really, REALLY want a series of photos of the rocket stove cooker thing that Matt built behind the base camp double wide.

I'm thinking this is a thing that I want.

I want this thing in my yard. I am willing to dig up my vegetable garden to make room for such a thing near the house (no worries, we are putting in hugelkultur beds with a better sun aspect). I'm curious about what sort of shelter it needs from rain and snow and such.

Anybody want to build a rocket cooker in Portland?
 
pollinator
Posts: 324
Location: North Olympic Peninsula
80
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Julia, I was having so much fun building and hanging out with everybody I barely took any photos. Here's a video that shows the basic guts of the unit. I dressed it up a bit with a bench at Paul's, but this will give you the idea. Maybe someone else has good photos. I'm not terribly far from Portland....



...and here's how it's currently finished, with an oven over the first burner and a second simmering burner on the counter top to the right. You can almost see the tea kettle on a griddle there behind the oven...



 
Julia Winter
steward
Posts: 3153
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
616
hugelkultur urban chicken food preservation bike bee
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks! That's gorgeous.

Does it have a roof, or, what happens when it rains?
 
Julia Winter
steward
Posts: 3153
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
616
hugelkultur urban chicken food preservation bike bee
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
OK, more questions. In the photos, you've just built a cover for the barrel, right? Or is there no longer a barrel in there, being now something built from, um, hardibacker board or some such.

What's the top surface on the oven and the counter top? Maybe that's the rain protection?

Finally, given it's location I would assume that the bench is heated. Yes?
 
Matt Walker
pollinator
Posts: 324
Location: North Olympic Peninsula
80
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you. I've built it out of stuff that should hold up to the rain, although the plaster is just clay/sand/manure/flour paste, so I expect it to wash a bit. The combustion core will certainly fill with water and need some time to dry. Ideally it would all be under a roof, but I'm experimenting to see just how much abuse it can all take. I expect I'll stop cooking outdoors come December or so and then dry it all out again in the spring.
 
Matt Walker
pollinator
Posts: 324
Location: North Olympic Peninsula
80
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You got it, there are two barrels in there standing up, with hardi backer surround infilled with cob. The bench is two halves of a barrel, and yes, heated. Yep, the tops are thin cast concrete, designed with the intention of protecting most of it from the rain.
 
Julia Winter
steward
Posts: 3153
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
616
hugelkultur urban chicken food preservation bike bee
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


I found this when I went looking for more information. In the video you say you did some water bath canning on the stove, and that's one thing I'd love to be able to do.

I love the use of tile (I'm thinking I could get some from the Habitat ReStore). Did you buy the usual grout stuff to apply the tile, or is it something else?
 
Matt Walker
pollinator
Posts: 324
Location: North Olympic Peninsula
80
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It works very well for canning. The temperature control with a set up like this is remarkably precise, I pressure can on mine often.

I found that tile at the HFH ReStore as well! I think those 12"x12" tiles were around $0.20 or so. I used S-type thin set, which is normal tile thin set for wet areas. I didn't expect it to hold up as well as it has. It's been there for 18 months or so at this point, in all weather from freezing to burning in the heat of summer. I even have tile on the side of the firebox and it's holding up just fine. I use this outside area to test materials and concepts for possible indoor use, and so far I'm pretty confident in the hardi backer and/or tile for a different aesthetic from the classic cob/barrel approach. Solves a lot of the outdoor weathering problems as well.
 
I didn't like the taste of tongue and it didn't like the taste of me. I will now try this tiny ad:
permaculture bootcamp - learn permaculture through a little hard work
https://permies.com/wiki/bootcamp
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!