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Can anyone comment on regular "animal" permaculture" versus "veganic" permaculture ??

 
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Levente-
I don't think you understood my post.

Levente wrote, "Why do you think that vegan permaculture would want to exclude earthworms or microbes?"

Why do you think that I believe that vegans want to exclude earthworms and microbes in vegan permaculture? I was talking about what you can exclude, not that it was required. Animals come onto the land naturally. If you're going to make an effort to exclude them, there are ways to do it. It becomes much more difficult in some circumstances, like removing all the worms and microbes, which are in fact animals.

I understand that Helen Atthowe has a particular type of permaculture that she likes to espouse that is vegan. She doesn't necessarily speak for all vegans. My wife is a vegan and wouldn't have a problem with animal manure being in the soil if the animal was respected for itself rather than used as a vehicle for manure. Vegans are not a block of people that have to obey Helen Atthowe. Some do , some don't.
John S
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John Saltveit wrote:Levente-
I don't think you understood my post.

Levente wrote, "Why do you think that vegan permaculture would want to exclude earthworms or microbes?"

Why do you think that I believe that vegans want to exclude earthworms and microbes in vegan permaculture? I was talking about what you can exclude, not that it was required. Animals come onto the land naturally. If you're going to make an effort to exclude them, there are ways to do it. It becomes much more difficult in some circumstances, like removing all the worms and microbes, which are in fact animals.

I understand that Helen Atthowe has a particular type of permaculture that she likes to espouse that is vegan. She doesn't necessarily speak for all vegans. My wife is a vegan and wouldn't have a problem with animal manure being in the soil if the animal was respected for itself rather than used as a vehicle for manure. Vegans are not a block of people that have to obey Helen Atthowe. Some do , some don't.
John S
PDX OR



Sorry for not expressing myself clearly. What I meant was that the 'exclusion' of all animals is a false issue. I don't think any sane person - who describes her/himself as vegan or shades thereof - would ever even think of trying to exclude certain creatures from the land, only in the name of a vegan ideal (if there is such a thing). So, I repeat, that's a false issue. No point in wasting our breath discussing it.

Secondly: a vegan person's vegan philosophy (which supposedly determines what one chooses to eat, wear, etc.) should not be equalled with a vegan (or veganic, if you like) permaculture design.

You may choose a vegan design because of your vegan convictions (no exploitation of animals etc etc), OR you may expressly choose a vegan design (=one whose functioning is not dependent on yields obtained from farm animals) even if you're not a vegan by conviction, simply because such a design is more convenient, easier to implement / operate / maintain, makes more sense in your specific situation, and so on and so forth.

I belong to the latter category: I'm not a vegan, but my permaculture design is practically a vegan one (for now), simply for the fact that it is not dependent on the active use of any type of animals.

And a finally: the notion of 'the animal being respected for itself' is an ethical / philosophical minefield. Mind you, this is a non-vegan talking, albeit one who is not interested in either side of the pro/anti vegan argument. However, a philosophical argument is worth thinking through to the end. So... Since you were referring to 'manure' I will assume you were talking about farm animals - in which case the animal is raised either for its meat, milk, wool, skin, etc., or to serve as a draft animal. Hence, definitely NOT "respected for itself'. Even if you raised the animal as a pet - some people do raise horses / ponies or even pigs only as pets - you still cannot say that the animal is "respected for itself", because the purpose of raising it is utilitarian (the animal as a surrogate friend, etc.).

 
John Suavecito
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Levente-
I am going to disagree with you. Many vegans have animals that are not raised for meat or other utilitarian purpose because they believe they are giving the animal a good life and enjoy its company. That's the whole meaning of animal companion. "Surrogate friend" sounds demeaning. DO you have human "surrogate friends"? I don't.

I agree with you that excluding all animals is not very useful. That was my point exactly. I am glad that you understand and agree. It wasn't clarified in the rest of the discussion. It was a minor point in my post, but it seems like it's much more important to you. I was showing many different options.

The whole discussion is a mine field. Saying that animal companions are "used" but other animals aren't seems to be a false dichotomy. All animals make manure, wild or domesticated, and that increases the fertility when properly used. It will occur by default because nature abhors a vaccuum. It makes a broader type of biological diversity and fertility. I wasn't saying that vegans would have a herd for meat of leather, but because they enjoy their company. People like rabbits because they are cute fluffy pets. The benefit of the manure is a side issue.

I understand that you have a vegan design, and that the idea is different than whether you are personally a vegan. There is no magic line between having dogs, rabbits, squirrels, worms, insects, guinea pigs, or raccoons. They are all animals. Your distinction doesn't have any clear bounds.
John S
PDX OR
 
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I'm pretty sure my cats are surrogate babies.

Here's some of their used litter as a berm planted with Agave:

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