Daylight Saving Time

Ray Yeti wrote:I propose a compromise:
Permanently change time to a half hour ahead...

So you think Newfoundland Time might be a good model 🤔?

Riona Abhainn wrote:I wish we were on daylight savings time all year long!  That way it would never get dark before 5:30pm (currently in Dec. on standard time it gets dark at 4:30pm and its awful.)  And if we switched to perminent standard time it would get dark in June at 9pm instead of 10pm and I'd dislike it mightily because those 10pm twilights are exquisite.

So I want perminent daylight savings time.  I know some people disagree though.  I have big feelings about it.

It would get dark before 530 pm in the far north and far south!

I don’t understand how the clock time makes the twilight more exquisite.  It’s the same change from light to dark independent of the clock indoors or on a phone or watch…. My mind just can’t wrap around that.  I can only think it is tied to one cultural aspect or another that makes a person want the clock or the cultural agreement of what “time” it is to correlate to a specific natural event.

I understand Carla’s predicament far better.  I have found myself coming in to the house at dusk, dirty, falling down tired, and just then beginning to start making a dinner plan.  That’s ok regardless of clock time (can be 10 pm) unless there is some cultural imperative that is going to require me to be at peak performance early ( and artificially earlier) in the morning.  

Before the railroads necessitated coordinated times, noon was when the sun was highest in the sky.  And each community was on their own sun time.  Trains going opposite directions using the same single track introduced the need to “synchronize our watches”.  That makes sense to me, but this other just seems pretty arbitrary, and I can’t figure out how it is related to anything but convenience and self indulgence.

I talked to a man today who suffers greatly in the week to 10 days following the spring forward.  And some children will be waiting for the school buses before daybreak!

I don’t like the change and I REALLY don’t like daylight savings time.  I never have, and I wish people who want to start their day earlier (in synch with the time zone to the east) would just go ahead… without imposing that disruption on my life.

I purposely plan the next week each year carefully to make sure I have no commitments to an early start, and realize how lucky I am that I can do this.

Hubby is out of town. Normally, he does much of the "clock changing". He sent me a reminder and an itemized list of clocks that need changing. (He's an electrical engineer - what did you expect?)

I sent him this in an email this morning!

Unfortunately, your attached document doesn't include step by step instructions, so I changed the easy ones... I did *try* to change the microwave, but clearly it doesn't speak dinosaur. The stove speaks dinosaur really well - the microwave should take lessons.

What a waste of time... is that irony or some other writing term?

Thank you for this post. I had already forgotten about the time change.  I normally rely on my Master Mouser to tell me when to get up and go to bed.   Her clock doesn’t need changing.   But my wife has an appointment in the Big City Wednesday, so I will need to get things adjusted by then.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:
Which makes me wonder:  does the southern hemisphere have daylight savings?  Does southern hemisphere fall back as northern springs ahead?
What about the tropics?  Just how extensive has this weirdness extended?
What happens at the equator when the times change ( in northern and southern hemispheres?)

We are the opposite of you down here (I am about an hour south of the tropic of Capricorn), so yeah, we spring (sprang) forward when you all were falling back.
Brazil had DST until 2019-  it only applied to the more southern parts of the country, so i'm not sure what happens in equatorial areas (they already have a lot of sun!).
The reasoning for abandoning it was exactly what you'd expect: health issues, people missing the national high school exam (which took place usually right after the spring forward), no real energy savings.
So now we are stuck on standard time and quite frankly it's terrible. It gets dark really early, even in the summer, it's dark in the morning, even in the summer the days feel so short.
While it didn't produce the huge savings people always thought it did, DST did turn out to be an economic driver for tourism. When it's dark, in many places people don't feel safe, and they go home. Tourism is a big industry, and another hour or two on the beach or at a sidewalk bar or cafe makes a difference for small businesspeople. And then there are arena sports (like soccer) where with recent price hikes for power, smaller sports clubs can't afford lighting. There are a lot of petitions to bring it back, not sure what's going to happen. Apparently it was a plan for decades to get rid of it.
There is a pretty strong movement to try to bring it back. Personally, i wish they would.

Thanks, Tereza, now i know!

And that’s interesting to hear about living in the time after DST was abolished

Tereza Okava wrote:
So now we are stuck on standard time and quite frankly it's terrible. It gets dark really early, even in the summer, it's dark in the morning, even in the summer the days feel so short.

What are you calling summer? If it's the time of winter in the northern hemisphere, then of course the days are shorter. But except for the equator, where day and night are always the same, day length changes throughout the year regardless of time zone. It's not possible for warm season days to be short.

Somehow I totally miss this happening this year.

I guess I forgot that this was to happen and have not been affected.

The clock in the bedroom got changed to Military Times otherwise wise I didn't know Daytime Savings happened.

Luck me.

David Wieland wrote:
What are you calling summer? If it's the time of winter in the northern hemisphere, then of course the days are shorter. But except for the equator, where day and night are always the same, day length changes throughout the year regardless of time zone. It's not possible for warm season days to be short.

It is going to be 100F this week, early fall, the third week back to school in the new school year after high summer, and sunset today is 6:38pm.  I think officially we'd say summer is from Novemberish to Easter (which is the end of this month)
We do have a winter (with frost), which we'll start feeling in May, and it goes til September. The rest, when it's this hot, it stinks to have it be dark when everyone's just getting home. Much nicer when it's stretching towards 8 pm when it gets dark and you want to get some garden work done or take the dog for a walk after school.

I grew up in Arizona, without DST, but in general our days started pretty early. I remember thinking "Why do they call it 9 to 5 when everyone starts at 8 if not earlier?"

In the spring and summer the days are miserable, but mornings glorious. Cool, fresh, all the critters out, cactus flowers open. Perfect time for going on hikes, paintballing, etc. I couldn't imagine the concept of purposely trading one of those hours for an extra hour of afternoon heat where you're just waiting for it to get dark so you can go outside again.

Then I moved to Russia, where they had the clocks permanently forward one hour plus an extra for DST. Made more sense because most buildings didn't have AC. Everyone would get cranky and lethargic as the workdays progresaed from the humidity. But the sunlit evenings stretching till midnight or past were lovely.

Hi Kevin,

Welcome to Permies.

It took us almost a full week - 6days - to acclimate to the time change, this time. It's only March, and the ducks & chickens are already staying out until about 7pm, screwing with my evenings. I think I've figured out why it's so frustrating to me - I don't really get to shower & relax, until all the critters are settled in, for the night. So, before the time change to DST, by 5 or 6pm, I'm able to have dinner, relax, read, catch up on what's been happening on permies, since my morning coffee time, and spend time with hubby. After the springtime change, dinner has to be before the evening chores, making it feel rushed. Then, after dinner, I'm in this weird limbo, where the critters aren't ready for me yet, but I don't feel like I can really relax into my normal evening stuff, because I know that soon, I'll have to dump it, to run outside and do the evening chores. And it doesn't make sense to shower for dinner, then go back out, getting sweaty & stinky, then come in and shower again - especially when the extra daily shower dries my skin out, so badly. So, I end up only doing a quick wash up, before dinner, and... well, the whole thing makes for a stressful evening, leading to less restful sleep, and a grumpy Carla. It ain't purty!

But, Tereza, you make a great point, on the tourism front! Our area is extremely tourist dependent, and I can see (thanks to you!) how abandoning DST could be detrimental to business, here. Ugh. Talk about a catch 22!

We live far enough north, that the whole "duckie bedtime" timing issue is constantly a moving target. There are definitely times of the year where the interference with both making dinner and eating it are a pain. I really need to up my skills with the slow cooker for those times. However, near the summer solstice, the animals would like to be partying out at 10 pm and that's not happening!

Heads up! They're changing the time here again.....

Am I the only one that doesn't need to change their wrist watch? I've been mentally translating all summer

Nancy, just another reason that you are a hero in my eyes (other than the tree thing).  I never set the correct time in my cars or trucks, I didn't believe in doing so and most important, I did not know how to do so!  When I was still working, I would reset my wrist watch within a week or two of the time change.

Peace

Rant alert.... all sorts of people keep reporting about how bad this time change thingy is bad for people, bad for increasing car accidents, bad for business, but no one seems ready to just flip a coin (they also delay it by being indecisive about which is better, permanent Standard or permanent Daylight savings - I've read some of the reasons, and I understand both sides to some degree, but seriously people we aren't likely to please *everyone* no matter what, so basing it on a coin flip seems as fair as any other option.)

I understand, really I do. Making decisions is *really* hard, but we've been talking about this one for 5 years? Let's just do it!

But for the moment, I suggest anyone who needs to be places on time, take some time to change their clocks. My geese don't much care what my clocks say! I'm told that anyone with cows will find that they don't pay *any* attention to clocks.

Jay Angler wrote:... being indecisive about which is better, permanent Standard or permanent Daylight savings...

I have a hard time believing that those advocating permanent Daylight time have really thought it through. What they're really advocating is shifting timezones eastward. That would mean that no one, regardless of their longitude, would have noon corresponding to the sun being at its highest point. So long high noon!

David Wieland wrote: That would mean that no one, regardless of their longitude, would have noon corresponding to the sun being at its highest point. So long high noon!

Unless you live in Saskatchewan!

Now that I live on a homestead, Standard Time totally works for me. However, I do know some people who have worky jobs who feel that they want more light after work, and wouldn't know what "high noon" even was.

I can remember being on canoe trips in my youth and getting to the point that I could come within 10 minute of clock time just from observing the sun. It was a bit of an eye opener, having grown up in Suburbia.

Now we have so many City Born who have never even seen a dark sky. We had teen visitors from Japan. We normally park up the hill from the house and walk down, and we get a beautiful view of the sky (not as beautiful now as 20 years ago - light pollution has crept up slowly.) They were in awe! They had only ever seen pictures of a dark sky - never really believed how many stars could be seen by the naked eye. It made their trip!

My hounds don't care one whit about DST. Me, I can take it or leave it. But Daylight Saving Time is also Business Standard Time on this continent. It won't go away.

I note that DST offers more evening opportunities to talk to my neighbours who have workee jobs. We're all out for a walk after dinner, now that it's light out. This is good for community.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:...I note that DST offers more evening opportunities to talk to my neighbours who have workee jobs. We're all out for a walk after dinner, now that it's light out. This is good for community.

That's an interesting observation, although it's neighbourhood dependent. It goes to show that there are pros and cons to nearly everything. Another downside to late light though is that young children who need to go to bed before DST dark don't get to see July fireworks or maybe even fireflies.

I'm an early riser so springing forward just feels like winter is that much longer. I love routine, and find it very disorienting and somewhat depressing. Perhaps another reason to find a refuge among old growth in BC if at all possible -- the cessation of daylight saving time.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:My hounds don't care one whit about DST.

Wow! mine certainly do! They never understand why their dinner suddenly isn't available when their body clock says it is time! We tend to phase the shift for them. It's easy in autumn however - noone minds an early dinner!

Ra Kenworth wrote: Perhaps another reason to find a refuge among old growth in BC if at all possible -- the cessation of daylight saving time.

Alberta is already talking about joining us (fingers crossed), Saskatchewan never had DST, so that just leaves two provinces to "influence" before getting to your neighborhood.

Unfortunately, BC is getting rid of the "change", not DST. The people voted for DST by a large margin. It will make next Nov/December mornings *very* dark here as we tend to be very cloudy then. I'm already thinking of the "dawn simulator" lights that are available, to put in my bedroom. I had a Charlie Brown version decades ago when I had a worky job, and it really helped me get up in the morning.

Used to be amazed at the “problem” of kids having to travel to school in the dark… I mean, really, is it so hard to simply adapt by changing school day start and end times?? But then I realized, yes, it’s extremely hard to adapt, because the school schedule is tied to the parents’ work schedules, which are in turn tied to the entirety of commerce/business/production/etc. cycles. A one-hour change in the school schedule can throw a massive wrench into the machinery, especially when both parents work outside the home (which seems to be the current norm). So many competitive interests, so many schedules embedded into non-natural cycles.

Jay Angler wrote:

“I'm told that anyone with cows will find that they don't pay *any* attention to clocks.”

That statement gave me a rather wan smile. When we kept a family cow I was forced to integrate farm duties with my day job at the local hospital, and man oh man, what a pain! The interplay of human and animal diurnal cycles, job work schedules, and the necessity of routine for both health and predictable behaviors (animal and human!) was burden enough… the biannual imposition of a time change seemed a cruel and unusual punishment.

There’s no diplomatic solution. Far too many tangles. I guess I’ve become hopeful of a miracle. Interestingly I said as much recently and was told that government force is the miracle I’m waiting for. What a sorry insight.

Jay Angler wrote:
Alberta is already talking about joining us (fingers crossed), Saskatchewan never had DST, so that just leaves two provinces to "influence" before getting to your neighborhood.

Unfortunately, BC is getting rid of the "change", not DST. The people voted for DST by a large margin. It will make next Nov/December mornings *very* dark here as we tend to be very cloudy then. I'm already thinking of the "dawn simulator" lights that are available, to put in my bedroom. I had a Charlie Brown version decades ago when I had a worky job, and it really helped me get up in the morning.

For all the reasons that others here have mentioned and that health professionals advise, BC's move is truly unfortunate. Shifting BC's time zone from Pacific to Mountain, which is what they are doing, will reveal all the problems except the morning grogginess associated with the spring change. But if Alberta does end DST and stays on Mountain Standard Time, at least they will be in the same time zone, which might have some slight benefit.

In this case, "daylight" and "saving" sound positive, while "mountain" is neutral. Calling BC's move "permanent daylight saving time" is simply a triumph of marketing over honesty, but of course we see that in many other cases.

after some years having stopped switching, i can say that while I still wish we were on daylight savings time rather than our standard time permanently (that ship has sailed, though) it has been nice to not have "the change" screwing things up twice a year. I was also one of those people who left the car clock on the old time (until my husband got ticked off enough to fix it himself).

I don' wanna!😫

Hate DST
Hate the change constantly.
Healthier to stay one time.
I wish it would just stay on normal time.

When I was a child we lived for a time in a small beachside community. Folks there ignored Daylight Savings Time nonsense.

I know that I am “preaching to the choir, but it is a barking mad nuisance which needs to be discontinued!

Some may recall Paul’s post on “Spoons” which Burra taught him how to use. Daylight Savings Time is a huge spoon deficit for twice a year: when it starts and when it ends. A disruptor of probably many folks’ internal clocks.

Take it for what it is worth from an old healer (my daughter jokingly refers to me as “the friendly neighbourhood witch doctor ”) that jolts to one’s internal settings are not productive!

However, I have noticed that many Permie chums have far better sense than those in charge of cities, states and the federal government and big business folks.

Which is where one tends to find barnyard common sense…with the grass roots, less sophisticated by choice population.

I think this belongs here...

It’s all a manmade construct anyway. How about just move it half hour ahead for spring, and LEAVE IT THERE! Common sense. At least for here in the PNW so it won’t be dark so late in the winter mornings and so early in the afternoons, and light so late in the Summer evenings.
I would joke when I was younger asking- what is it being saved up for? Being sent to Alaska where more light is needed?😆

Found a pic from last November...

How about we declare that when the sun is directly overhead, that is 12 noon, the exact middle of the 24 hour clock cycle? That is Common Sense by the most simple and clear definition- anyone anywhere can observe and agree on this as a basic principle.

If we need to coordinate better between different geographical locations, the globe (even works for a disc if we want to be more inclusive) could be divided into 24 'zones' where noon time is rounded off to the nearest 30 minutes, but the sun's location would remain an undeniable common reference point for all people to agree upon as a fact.

Unless we find facts inconvenient and wish to look to other sources of 'truth' of course...

Today, the sun will be at the zenith at 13:24 local time.

Even on standard time, we are about half an hour out.  Now it's a hour and a half (give or take)

r ransom wrote:Today, the sun will be at the zenith at 13:24 local time.

True local time is when the sun is at the zenith at 12 noon. I gather they centralised time because of coordinating the railways....I think local noon here would be about 20 minutes later than GMT noon. I know I got it wrong when I marked out my garden beds (Grrr!)

I suppose we should be grateful we don't have decimal days....yet.

Coydon Wallham wrote:How about we declare that when the sun is directly overhead, that is 12 noon, the exact middle of the 24 hour clock cycle? That is Common Sense by the most simple and clear definition- anyone anywhere can observe and agree on this as a basic principle.

Yes! I agree that local solar noon is the thing to be observed, and I wish more folks were of a like mind.

Here to grumble that we're still doing (or rather, that I'm still subject to) capricious clock changes.

Ash Jackson wrote:...
Yes! I agree that local solar noon is the thing to be observed, and I wish more folks were of a like mind.

Here to grumble that we're still doing (or rather, that I'm still subject to) capricious clock changes.

That could work if horse-drawn coach was our fastest transportation. That sounds pretty permie, doesn't it? And how about sundials instead of motorized or electronic devices? If the sun isn't shining, we could just take our best guess. We could call it Worldwide Animal Standard Time (WAST), in full harmony with nature. But would my wife go for it? 🤔