• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Nicole Alderman
stewards:
  • Mike Haasl
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
master gardeners:
  • jordan barton
  • John F Dean
  • Rob Lineberger
  • Carla Burke
  • Jay Angler
gardeners:
  • Greg Martin
  • Ash Jackson
  • Jordan Holland

Daylight Saving Time

 
steward
Posts: 3666
Location: Kingston, Canada (USDA zone 5a)
462
purity dog forest garden fungi trees tiny house chicken food preservation woodworking
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Source: xkcd.com
 
gardener
Posts: 2007
Location: Grand Valley of Colorado's Western Slope
173
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Great cartoon.

As much about people acting without thinking as about daylight savings time, two things we pay a high price for.
 
gardener
Posts: 1813
Location: Zone 6b
209
cat fish trees books urban food preservation solar woodworking greening the desert
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In the 70's they tried moving the clock ahead early, and I do mean early. I remember heading to school in the dark with the moon still up. Felt like the middle of the night (I was on the Canadian border so we had short winter days and short summer nights anyways but it was ridiculous). That morning there was a kid killed in a crosswalk by a bus, in Florida, trying to get to school, in the dark.

Where I live now, we should be in the next time zone. Local high noon occurs at about 1:50 pm during Daylight Saving Time. It's ridiculous. One town to the Northwest of us, DOES run on the next zone though officially they are on the same one as we are (state line is the time line). I wish they'd just go back to nothing. Also, they shoved the advance to start earlier and end later with no measureable savings in energy, in fact it eats more. The sun is 'good enough time' if you're off grid and on the land, I agree totally.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1596
Location: RRV of da Nort
269
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Doesn't matter how it all transpires, trying to impose an industrially-determined schedule onto the rhythms of biological creatures is a recipe for angst.  When having morning coffee in the half-light of a winter's dawn, we often note the lit-up "schoolbus from Hell" that passes on the distant county road, engorged with all those groggy minds in transit to the appointed "assimilation" centers....
 
master steward & author
Posts: 20976
Location: Left Coast Canada
5906
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It's nearing that time again.
 
steward
Posts: 2154
Location: Sunshine Coast, BC
640
hugelkultur forest garden fungi trees books chicken bee
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I grew up in an area that didn't do the daylight savings thing. So I was a real mess when I got out into the 'real world'. Once a year I was an hour early for work, and once a year I was an hour late for work (okay, maybe more than once a year for that one )

You-have-no-power-here.jpg
[Thumbnail for You-have-no-power-here.jpg]
 
Deb Rebel
gardener
Posts: 1813
Location: Zone 6b
209
cat fish trees books urban food preservation solar woodworking greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am so far over and in one zone and should be in the next one west, with Daylight Saving Time, on Summer Equinox, our local high noon is 1:51 pm. So that tells you we REALLY should be one zone west. If they would just grant us that. We are about the furthest west of our zone. Just make sure you know in the morning which things click over automatically and which ones you have to set (I did all the ones in our place already)
 
master steward
Posts: 4039
Location: USDA Zone 8a
1208
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Daylight Savings begins Sunday, March 12, 2017 and ends Sunday, November 5, 2017
 
Posts: 167
Location: New Hampshire
19
hugelkultur forest garden tiny house
  • Likes 10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have decided that I will no longer dignify the concept by using a non-vulgar term for it. From now on I'm simply calling it "time fuckery".

It is so silly that we care what digit it is when we get up or when we start work. Why "6" is better than "14", "278", or "-5" is still a mystery to me.
 
r ranson
master steward & author
Posts: 20976
Location: Left Coast Canada
5906
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
 
master steward
Posts: 14547
Location: Pacific Northwest
6577
hugelkultur kids cat duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yeah. I'm kind of torn. On the one hand, it just seems SO SILLY to artificially make "noon" happen an hour after physical noon, all year round, because society just wants to stay up later. Like, we could just have employers start work at a different hour, rather than changing the actual time. But no, now we're going to lie to ourselves and pretty much remove all meaning behind the word "noon."

But, on the other hand, as much as I hate Daylight Savings Time, I hate switching even more. So, being on Daylight Savings all year round is a lesser of all evils. At least I don't have a whole span of time where my animals want to be let out at their "normal" time, which suddenly is not my normal time because someone decided to switch the clocks.

My watch still has standard time. I didn't switch it to daylight savings in the spring. I just kept adding the hour when people asked me the time. I'm honestly tempted to always have my watch on standard time, even if we legally never live acording to the sun ever again. At least my watch will still tell the true time.

I feel like such a cranky, weird old person about this. I'm only 34! But, changing the clocks just so people can stay up later to buy more stuff, seems so SILLY.
 
pollinator
Posts: 4958
1154
transportation duck trees rabbit tiny house chicken earthworks building woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Nicole Alderman wrote:Yeah. I'm kind of torn. On the one hand, it just seems SO SILLY to artificially make "noon" happen an hour after physical noon, all year round, because society just wants to stay up later. Like, we could just have employers start work at a different hour, rather than changing the actual time. But no, now we're going to lie to ourselves and pretty much remove all meaning behind the word "noon."

But, on the other hand, as much as I hate Daylight Savings Time, I hate switching even more. So, being on Daylight Savings all year round is a lesser of all evils. At least I don't have a whole span of time where my animals want to be let out at their "normal" time, which suddenly is not my normal time because someone decided to switch the clocks.

My watch still has standard time. I didn't switch it to daylight savings in the spring. I just kept adding the hour when people asked me the time. I'm honestly tempted to always have my watch on standard time, even if we legally never live acording to the sun ever again. At least my watch will still tell the true time.

I feel like such a cranky, weird old person about this. I'm only 34! But, changing the clocks just so people can stay up later to buy more stuff, seems so SILLY.



I thought I was the only person that did that! Ha...I am not alone! I never switch my watch...

The interesting thing about time zones is, it was all started because of the railroads, BUT today the railroads do not even use time zones. Like I worked for Union Pacific which is based out of Omaha Nebraska. Soooooo...all times were central time. It did not matter if you were on a railroad track in California, or an some rail in the eastern part of the country; "railroad time" was always Central Time.

So in that period of my life, I had (3) times going on. I lived in Maine so to call my wife I had to be aware of what time Maine Time was, which if I was in California would be four hours later then local time. Then I had local time which was 4 hours after Eastern Time, and then Railroad Time which was 3 hours later than local time. It does not seem confusing until you get out of the locomotive at 6 PM railroad time, then go back to the hotel which is operating at 3 PM local time, which you make a call that is actually at 7 pm Maine Time.

Oh but it gets worse...some states and some counties do not recognize daylight savings time, like Arizona does not believe in it, nor do some counties in Indiania...so a person has to factor all that in too if they are located there, and it is during day light savings time...

The railroad did operate on military time though, and to this day I do use that, also called 24 hour time.
 
Posts: 9002
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
670
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
China has one timezone. I think they actually span five different zones, but have chosen a single one.

There's a clock in my car that I never change. My primary clock is on my cell phone and it changes automatically.

Time of day doesn't seem to matter as much to people in the Philippines. Many people are on the road when it's still dark outside. Night comes at 6 p.m. or close to it, all year. Social events are planned for the darkness, as a way of avoiding the heat. Rural areas seem to operate much more by the sun.
 
Travis Johnson
pollinator
Posts: 4958
1154
transportation duck trees rabbit tiny house chicken earthworks building woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have heard conflicting reasons why we change the clocks...

I heard it was because of school kids getting on the bus, then I heard it was because of farmers, and some conspiracy theorists told me it was because it influenced when people shopped...or did not shop...like headed for home when it got dark out.

I have heard a lot, but no one seems to know why we do this silly thing. I am all for doing away with it.
 
Dale Hodgins
Posts: 9002
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
670
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I used to hear that there was some energy savings. That changing the clocks prevented people from using electric lights. I think using some electric light early in the day, can be a very good thing. It means they are out of bed when the Sun is up.

All over the world we have this problem. It's hard to get some people out of bed early, and this means that they waste a good portion of the light, if they are working outside and then they stretch their day using artificial light after it gets dark, or they have to stop. I talked to a farmer on the equator in Kenya, about his time management. He is up before dawn and has his breakfast, because he does all of his open-field work during the early part of the day. Once it gets hot, he works under his trees or by the pond that has shade. His neighbour, who drinks is up, making noise half the night, and then he doesn't get going until the heat of the day.

My younger brother spent half of his life with his days and nights screwed around. He couldn't seem to get going until 11 a.m., because of substance abuse. In the summer this still allowed him to work a reasonably long day, although he started in the heat. In the winter, it would sometimes get dark 4 hours after he finally got going.

I don't know that the government making minor adjustment to clocks could fix this. Perhaps someone could invent a bed that dumps certain people onto the floor at sunrise. Optimally, it would douse them with water and give them a little slap as well. :-)
 
Nicole Alderman
master steward
Posts: 14547
Location: Pacific Northwest
6577
hugelkultur kids cat duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
From all that I've researched, we switch the clocks as an energy saving measure during the war. They wanted everyone to wake up early with the sun, so they'd have more sunlight hours after work and could get more done (and, eventually, buy more things, but I don't think that's the reason we changed it during the war, but it's probably a large reason why we've kept it so long).

But, people don't LIKE to wake up early. And businesses don't want to change their operating hours. There's a stigma to having to be at work at 7:00am rather than 8:00am. There's a stigma to waking up at 5:00am rather than 4:00am. So, to get everyone up earlier, they just changed the clocks.

Now everyone wakes up earlier but feels okay about it because the clock reads a happy number that they like. It's like clothing size. We feel better buying size 8 pants than size 10, and so the clothing sizes have changed over the years to make people feel better about buying their clothes.

Basically, we're stuck with Daylight Savings because people don't want to wake up with the clock reading an earlier hour.
 
Dale Hodgins
Posts: 9002
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
670
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I seldom have to coordinate my work with other people. If I've had a really hard day the day before, I may not start until 10 a.m. . If I wake up at 4 feeling really refreshed, I may get going before dawn. The clock is only referenced if I have to meet someone or I'm going to a place that may be closed.

I know another demolition guy named Syd. He sometimes shows up for work very late in the day with a ragtag crew of sleepy heads. Long after I go home, they are still doing something under electric lights, to the annoyance of the neighbours. Cordless LED lights have been around for a while now. Syd runs a generator and drags cords around while using inefficient drywall lights. In this case, a huge amount of waste could be prevented by getting that business to operate during normal hours.
 
r ranson
master steward & author
Posts: 20976
Location: Left Coast Canada
5906
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The article makes a really good point: having it lighter later in the day is not good for human health.  They say that sleep problems are the biggest cause of other health issues now.  Perhaps even more than diet.  These sleep issues are caused by too much light late in the day...

I did the government survey about stoping the switching of the clock.  There were two choices: keep it as it is (switch twice a year) or keep permanent daylight savings.  Having real-time wasn't an option.  The survey was biased.  
 
Dale Hodgins
Posts: 9002
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
670
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The type of light that affects most people's sleep, is the light emitting from the sort of shiny screen that I am currently looking at. You'd have to be pretty young for daylight to interfere with your bedtime.
 
r ranson
master steward & author
Posts: 20976
Location: Left Coast Canada
5906
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Dale Hodgins wrote:The type of light that affects most people's sleep, is the light emitting from the sort of shiny screen that I am currently looking at. You'd have to be pretty young for daylight to interfere with your bedtime.



The article mentions that it's the bright light in the morning, like the light from the sun, that resets our clock and makes sleeping later easier...

.... of course, they didn't do their research in Victoria where winter generally comes with such heavy cloud cover that it's not easy to tell the difference between daylight and the city reflecting off the clouds.

But that said, as a farmer (and I'm so glad they stopped blaming farmers for daylight savings), I would rather have the chickens go to bed at 10:50 in midsummer than 11:50.  I haven't figured out how to get the little watches to stay on the chicken legs so they still tell time by the sun instead of the clock.
 
Alas, poor Yorick, he knew this tiny ad:
Rocket Mass Heater Plans - now free for a while
https://permies.com/goodies/7/rmhplans
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic