Apply permaculture principles to oneself

A lot about food in the living forum.
About health: medicinal plants, getting rid of toxin....

I am going to separate in 2 my intended post.
1st, it seems that disigning ourself has not been done in an explicite way. Of course we do it by trying to live more sustainably. So, can we apply a permie design in a more specific way to ourselves?
I wanted to start a topic about posture, and I did not find a suitable forum for it.

Honestly, I have dedicated myself more to my place than to me. As a good human, I can take care of others better than of myself.... Of course, what I do will take care of me, but I am not so sure I am as careful about myself than about my land and plants etc!

Then, the other "philosophical part" of the thinking I wanted to share is about how much we have to re-learn. The "take care of the people" is more about taking care of our social relationships. And ourselves as a world? So many different techniques around... And everyone trying and seeing what works and what not. Same as in permaculture, you have to try and see what works for you. Fine, but we still talk a lot and excange a lot about it.
There are more common things than differences, aren't they?

Do you think you apply permaculture to your health the same way you design it for your land?
This forum is devided into growies, critters... and so on.
And the design uses ALL this.
I am still investigating which are the fields for myself, and I was thinking I could be more efficient by using a design.... What do you think of it?
Do you design yourself as well?

Xisca Nicolas wrote:

Do you think you apply permaculture to your health the same way you design it for your land?

To me they are coming to be the same thing. I see the salvation of my health in how I relate to the land, and specifically my garden. I'm not even sure how to go into detail about this, but for me the benefits of the garden - physical, emotional, and spiritual - are central to any hope I have for being healthy.

In the UK I know they have tried prescribing an allotment ( small veg garden ) instead of drugs for depression )

David

Yes, that is the reward, the coming back effect of tending "something".
Now I was thinking of going further....
More direct.
The most obvious is the healthy food we get.

Cannot the design be pushed further?

What tool do you use to protect your back more when gardening?
I have access good air, but do I breath the right way?
Do I sit properly now at my computer?
How is my timing during the day?
Do I really prepare my food the best way?

The most obvious to me is that I modify my life gradually, and that I discover mistakes even in the healthfood store and in the believes I thought were healthy!
The easy answer is trial and error, that everybody is different etc.
Permaculture is supposed to help make it right with less errors.

Also, when I did my course about the nervous system, it helped me understand more what I already knew about animals.
And we do not do well enough what they do.
I think we know more about what stress a plant than ourselves!

So yes David, a garden is a good drug against depression, a 1st step, and by design we could refine it and make more step beyond...

I'm still new to permaculture, so I can't say that I know much practically, but I'm very understanding conceptually. And I think a good way of tending yourself is certainly eating more plants than meat and meat by-products. As far as biology goes, it just makes more sense to eat as closely to the first trophic level as possible to gain the most energy inputs into yourself, since 90% of raw energy is lost between them. I haven't tried being vegan yet, because I don't completely understand/ know enough about the lifestyle to healthily do so, but as I learn I'm seriously considering it. And as far as permaculture, toward the land, is concerned it is much more sustainable and friendly toward the earth, and its inhabitants, to eat a plant-based diet than an animal-based one, in any case. I think this is a really great topic you've started.

Hi Angelica,
Thanks for pointing to the problem of applying permaculture... What is the right knowledge? What is the solution to live right now and not die, and what is the solution to change little by little, so that we can live short term and long term?

What you say about food can seem logical, but is it?
Appart from many personal choices, I have discovered that animals are more useful than it can be seen.
Do you know the book "meat, a benin extravagance"?
It show how wrong is the % of energy input and output between animal and vegetable food.
When he says how the world would become by changing it to vegan, it looks as if totally unnatural for example.

So, when you see the bad ways that SOME animals are raised (I mean CAFO), the 1st logic is to refuse meat and then find more good reasons for choosing a plant based diet.
My 2nd logic is that there is a more sustainable solution, which is to claim and ask for animals to be tended the way they can live according to their biology.
The point is: living according to biology, physiology.
Then death is part of life, even when we talk about eating plants.
Then our sensibility is the personal part of the question. We are separated from the origin of our food, so we can be shocked when it comes to the act of killing. We really lack responsibility for a lot of things. We do not kill the meat we eat, so that it has become more stressful for animals that are transported to a slaughter house. We do not pick roots from the ground and hardly feel that it is also killing, more than picking an apple. But death is nothing important compared to the quality of LIFE!

The choice for me is not between veggies and meat, it is about the origin of the concentrated food for energy.
So you can choose between animal products and a mix of cereals and pulses for protein, this is an example-
Some people notice that they digest better when they suppress meat. ok, then who has tried to suppress all carbohydrates instead of meat?
I want to point out that if you think that meat was causing the problem, you can be wrong, because a lot of people do not tolerate well the MIX of meat and cereal eaten at the same meal!

What I can see, and this is the reason for this topic, is that each new knowledge can make a big change in the design of our meal, and the design of more things in our daily life.

I am not happy with the design of the furniture either.
Nothing is made to respect our posture for reading and using computers.
Car seats are not well designed and so on.

I would like to say, as the "OP" of this topic, that I would be sad if it turns into argueing, about which food is right etc.
There are other topics about food in their own forum!

I tried to stay into examples, just the minimum for questioning the act of designing,
and how we do it,
and what are the issues to make a good design...
It is also about how good are the intentions, and how bad can be the result, one day...
I am not sure that people had bad intentions when they started with chem Ag for example.
I think that most people that desforest a place do it for short term living and thinking that they have no other choice.

And our personal health is a very good theme to see what are the general issues, between doing what we can and what we have to, and forcasting the causes and effects.

Copied from another post:

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:The Technique is very much a permaculture of the self--when you take the short-view approach, you use fast-twitch fiber to do the support-mucle's job, and then the latter become atrophied. It takes a few months to recondition to a basic level, but back pain will go away, and bulged disks will not be a problem.

Permaculture of the self would have been a nice title to this topic!
Take care of ourselves in ways we apply to the earth.
Usually we start when something gets urgent....

Permaculture is about diversity and when it comes to a discussion on applying permaculture principles to oneself, diet is bound to come up. Eating is the most important choice we make in a day (for those of us lucky enough to have a choice). That said, diet is just one small element of looking at a human from a holistic point of view.

Do you think you apply permaculture to your health the same way you design it for your land?

This is the path I took towards permaculture (or whatever the style of life I have now). My health was poor so I changed diet and environment. However, this required growing my own food, so I got an allotment, which involved spending more time outside which changed my muscle structure, which led to changes in my furniture and understanding how small changes in environment can have a large effect on the whole, and moving house to a less toxic location, and now I have land that I tend in the same way I do my body. Only now I have land to care for, at least for the time being, my body gets less attention. I really need to start focusing on it again.

Admittedly, I'm very bad with ergonomics. I've noticed that ergonomically designed furniture is the fastest path to a back ache and back pinchy. Yoga seems to help with this, but I have no time for it in the growing season (Feb through Nov), so I'm looking for ways to change the way I use my hand tools. Longer handles on a hoe, rake, fork or shovel, allows for less stooping and more efficient use of force.

This is a great topic and I'm excited to learn more about it. These questions especially interest me:

What tool do you use to protect your back more when gardening?
I have access good air, but do I breath the right way?
Do I sit properly now at my computer?
How is my timing during the day?
Do I really prepare my food the best way?

I'm going to take these questions with me today, and see what I discover. I anticipate the answers will be; not enough, mostly, nope, goodish, and yes. I wrote those down so I could forget the answers I anticipate and be the observer for the day, instead of the evaluator. If that makes any sense.

Thanks for starting this thread.

Ho, I did not know there was an ergonomics forum!
I would start any post about using tools for back protection etc there.

MUUUUUch better than mixing different topic into this one.

I also notice as R Ranson that we forget... and think about coming back to better ways when we can, or when we have to.
I think that a natural life FORCES us to take care in a way that is not the kind of OBLIGATION that we abhore.
Nature has its own obligations that we can just bow our head with respect.

I would quite define permaculture by finding a smooth way to feel free to be forced!
And the design is how to make this fit all in one day and in one life!
example: -> no time for yoga? -> get the result while gardening.

Xisca Nicolas wrote:Ho, I did not know there was an ergonomics forum!
I would start any post about using tools for back protection etc there.

It's brand new, inspired by this thread.

Xisca Nicolas wrote:
I would quite define permaculture by finding a smooth way to feel free to be forced!
And the design is how to make this fit all in one day and in one life!
example: -> no time for yoga? -> get the result while gardening.

Garden yoga! This is perfect.

I wonder what it will look like. Forward bend to harvest a carrot, upward solute to counter the forward bend. Might take a bit of getting use to. I can see the benefit of it.

R Ranson wrote:

Xisca Nicolas wrote:Ho, I did not know there was an ergonomics forum!
I would start any post about using tools for back protection etc there.

It's brand new, inspired by this thread.

Thanks, I am delighted.
Actually, I started this thread because I could not find where to start one about my actual experience with the Bookspan advises for posture.

So great, because I found that there was already a posture threat, where I put a link to this website.
I found it very permie when I read that, for example, yoga or stretching is not just exercise but a way to teach you do it all day. She says that if you make squats as an exercice and then just bend your old way to pick up things, you just did not understand the point of making squats...

If we go to gardening after a life of sitting, we might go into problems.
I have seen many bad postures while gardening, like not using well the legs and bending too much.
But I do have to work a lot on my posture. I have some bad discs and I do not want to get an experience like Paul's.
His story is worth while if some more people can learn in time how to avoid this.
Then I thought that the conventional way of practising agriculture was from not wanting to foresee in time.
.... and that is exactly what we (all more or less) do in our daily life.

If we understand more the process to take care of ourselves, then we can find ways to spread permaculture better, by understanding why we tend to wait for the last moment (who did not for dentist or more?)

It is interesting that you mention yoga. I feel a similar kind of being present/mental clarity/mindfulness when I practice yoga and when I garden. Lots of research has been done about how that mental state when you feel time slip away and focus in a calm way on the task at hand is so very healthy for us. It doesn't really matter what activity brings it on.

This is a link about Jon Kabat-Zinn and Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction. I think it aligns in many ways with permaculture. Not that I am suggesting one needs to take a course to become more mindful... but perhaps in the 21st century, it's what it takes for some people? http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/stress-reduction/

R Ranson wrote:

Xisca Nicolas wrote:Ho, I did not know there was an ergonomics forum!
I would start any post about using tools for back protection etc there.

It's brand new, inspired by this thread.

Xisca Nicolas wrote:
I would quite define permaculture by finding a smooth way to feel free to be forced!
And the design is how to make this fit all in one day and in one life!
example: -> no time for yoga? -> get the result while gardening.

Garden yoga! This is perfect.

I wonder what it will look like. Forward bend to harvest a carrot, upward solute to counter the forward bend. Might take a bit of getting use to. I can see the benefit of it.

Haha, and yes, garden yoga! As I've become more "yogi"-ish, I have become more comfortable squatting down for activities such as carrot pulling rather than bending over or getting on my knees. It feels better on my back, but probably looks a little odd!

This topic looks interesting. I want to stay in good shape, in good health, for as long as possible. I don't want to destroy my back or legs by working in the garden too long or moving in a wrong way. I don't want to become ill from working outdoors too long when it's cold or wet. I don't want to get sunburn or sunstroke when the weather is hot. Etc.
So it is not only 'what you eat', but also 'how you work in the garden'.
Permaculture is a method to 'work together with nature', so you don't have to do too much work yourself.
When you work outdoors for only about an hour a day ... what are you doing during all other hours? That's important too. Sitting, standing, walking, riding, lying down, sleeping, doing sports or hobbies ... all the time we have to be aware ...

In 1966 I met a Yogi by the name of Prince Natan. He had an office on Sunset and Vine. He told me that Yoga was created to give the non-farmers the benefit of the exercise that traditional farmers received when carrying out their farming activities. I remembered this when I read the reference to "farming yoga". I have no informed opinion about this being correct or incorrect, but he was a ™ rather remarkable person who changed my life and redirected my personal path in a much healthier and positive direction. Can farming, practiced wholistically with the properly formed tools be a form of yoga? I'm thinking of Broadfork as opposed to plowing or double digging.

I like this topic. I think of health and permaculture as 2 sides of the same coin. There are disciplines like yoga (mentioned above), chi gung, and Aikido that each have sets of principles for human health and well-being that parallel those of Permaculture. Posture / structure; not using more force / energy input that necessary; working in harmony with nature vs against; minimum effort for maximum effect (Judo). Applied in these disciplines to the human body, vs to the land / environment as in Permaculture.


"Can farming, practiced wholistically with the properly formed tools be a form of yoga?" (Charles A: I love the lesson from Prince Natan.)

Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, had a specially heavy-built farm implements (hoe). He practiced farming as an extension of his Aikido. There are Youtube videos of experts working with a scythe done as much as a moving meditation and exercise, as to cut the grass.

"Yoga has also been described as wisdom in work or skilful living amongst activities, harmony and moderation." (BKS Iyengar, Light on Yoga, p 20.) Many of you know more about yoga than I do, but I understand that Asana (postures) are considered only a part of yoga.



The obvious overlap between Permaculture and human health is the food we grow and then consume. There are principles of human nutrition parallel to those of Permaculture, but they're not found in a big book conveniently titled. I think it takes more digging and sorting out. With Permaculture, once you've found it, you've found it.

One thing that's ironic to me is people that are absolutely fastidious with their Permaculture or organic gardening, then trash their bodies with the foods they eat (sugar, processed foods, refined carbs....) That's probably the exception; the average Permaculture person is probably congruent in what he eats. I know I've been guilty of a double standard at times, but I do think my land and my body each deserve the same study and care. That's the discipline I'm working on. Like I said, 2 sides of the same coin for me.

Greg Thomas wrote:... One thing that's ironic to me is people that are absolutely fastidious with their Permaculture or organic gardening, then trash their bodies with the foods they eat (sugar, processed foods, refined carbs....) That's probably the exception; the average Permaculture person is probably congruent in what he eats. I know I've been guilty of a double standard at times, but I do think my land and my body each deserve the same study and care. That's the discipline I'm working on. Like I said, 2 sides of the same coin for me.

Greg, it's strange idea, someone growing healthy food in his/her permaculture garden, eating 'trash'. Strange enough such people exist, combining their healthy homegrown veggies and fruits with lots of sugar and refined white flour (in home-made marmelade and sauces). Another 'double standard' I see when people do eat healthy, from their own permaculture garden, but other facets of their life do not fit in the permaculture life-style: their house, their car, their furniture and their clothes. In my opinion permaculture is including every facet of life!

A big reason I'm determined that gardening /small-scale farming shall be a permanent part of my life are the exercise benefits. I heard a long time ago (can't source it) that George Foreman used to train heavyweight boxers by having them work on a landscaping crew, especially if there was lots of raking.

Guess I'll pop over to the Ergonomics forum to post some helpful resources!

------edit---------

Whoa... this is already *in* the ergomonics forum! yippie!

My fave resources /inspirations:
Lloyd Kahn, amazing house builder from the Whole Earth Catalog days. He's surfed all his life and took up skateboarding at 65. Here he is at 76 (what a hottie...swoon):


Lloyd's office gym:


Lloyd has republished some classic stretching books: http://lloydkahn-ongoing.blogspot.com/search/label/stretching
His blog is always worth reading. Now he's got two: http://lloydkahn-ongoing.blogspot.com/ and http://www.theshelterblog.com/

Foundation Training is an excellent approach to building proper posture: http://www.foundationtraining.com/videos_and_blog/free-foundation-training-with-dr-eric-goodman-master-the-basics-of-movement/

Also check out the Gokhale Method, tons of free videos and free seminars held worldwide. http://gokhalemethod.com/

Pete Egoscue created the Egoscue Method which has saved thousands of people from surgery. My copy of his book is tattered from use! http://www.egoscue.com/

Ho, I did not know this relationship between yoga and gardening and martial arts!
Makes sense...

Everyone has good sources for more reading and viewing, haha more sitting!

I also feel, for thinking permie about health shpaing ourselves, that if we do all we need for being healthy, then we do not have enough with 24h a day.

Then, the permie way would be how to find 3 in 1 solutions.
(or more than 3!)
Instead of destroying ourselves part time and reparing part time, let's do right right away.
In a garden, we can avoid stress, make food, make yoga, exercise our posture, and our breathing, build muscles, use our body in harmony with our earth gravity without having to start skateboarding....

All jobs should be part time.
And gardening part time.

And when you already farm, then attend permies.com part time! )
And do not forget that designing is good for neurons

Has anyone mentioned singing while working?

Kris, I like very much Jon Kabat-Zinn and his mindfulness makes sense also through my background in Somatic experiencing.
It is all about the autonomic nervous system, the one that works for us 24/7.
As a 2 in 1, I do some meditation while doing Buteyko breathing exercise.

And I hope that I will be able to feel good one day with squats and use them more.
You never fall back when the carrot goes out? hahaha

They are not good to practise as isolated exercices and forget to use them in daily life.
Exercices are for teaching us to modify our life.
And then drop the exercise as such, because it is integrated and practised.

Tyler Ludens wrote:Has anyone mentioned singing while working?

Now yes, you have!
After starting Buteyko, I decided to hum the song through my nose, because singing is too much mouth breathing.
I use some repetitive arias like in mantra, or I invent. If I really want to use words, then I sing the normal way. But mostly mmmmmm mouth closed.

I also use exercise to increase my breathing while breathing through my nose, so that I can reach the slow breathing with a slight air hunger.
The goal is to optimize the oxygen use, imitating altitude (as they do for training in high level sport).

If you do Buteyko separately, it is a lot of time.
If you want to travel at higher altitude, even more...

Singing is part of art and gardening in other ways than in lines is also nice for creativity. I have no time for art separated from other activities, so I love permaculture design also for this reason.

Oh dear, I definitely like this topic too. Could even say I need it.

For various times I have tried to design a better health. Found some ways that worked, like doing yoga and dancing, but both of those became difficult after moving here (as I feel I need an instructor in yoga as beginner). I have also tried a few diets, but fallen off the seemingly good habit (at least I felt better) I had for a short time. And then I have had to search for ways for better mental health.

One of the issues is how to arrange your life so that there is enough time for everything necessary and your personal energy levels are not consumed too much, that you don't run out of spoons too fast". (I assume you have come across the spoons story circulating in the net.) If you happen to have less spoons per day than an average person, it can easily be the biggest issue of them all.

For example, I cannot trust to be able to run our homestead even 50% self-sufficiently concerning food, not even mentioning how to arrange with all the other needs then. (Especially as I don't have the energy to do the transformation project needed) Therefore I need the outside job, which I am able to do even when my health limits physical work for weeks, and which gives me decent social security benefits when I fall ill. But that has its downsides. Too many spoons are used at work, and nothing I do at work is of any benefit in my life other than money. Well, maybe it also gives me a sense of being useful and accomplishment, but I tend to be a much better worker than I am in taking care of myself. Talk about inherited lutheran/protestant work ethics, although I am athee! Definitely unhealthy. At least, when working = sitting in an office, looking at the screen and papers alternatingly. This is an equation I have not been able to solve. If the job takes 80% of my energy and I cannot integrate it with anything (can't even do the
shopping on the way home)...

And how do you arrange your personal life in a permaculture way, so that it benefits you instead of consuming you - THAT is the big issue.

There are many issues of importance ( this is certainly not an exclusive list):
- diet that suits you (not necessarily the same for everyone!) - benefits
- gentle movement (for me this seems to be bigger issue than tough exercise) - benefits
- amount of rest, and how to wind down sufficiently (any other HSPs around?)
- healthy living quarters, and working place too - above all - not consuming
- not too much stress or stuff to do - how to find synergia, how to eliminate consuming things
- social life - benefits, eliminate consuming things, maybe find synergia?

Oh dear. Writing that list makes me wonder how my spoons don't run out even faster. Maybe time for some serious thinking with pen and paper. Have been done too little of that in the recent years.

Awesome thread!! Excellent thought starter!!
Reading through it, I'm "all of the above" I chant and stretch while I work, adapt my tools and furniture to healthy habits, look at the whole world through permie eyes and try to pattern all of it.

I have a head start on some of you, this is all just a logical extension of my "before" life. I was a deep tissue massage therapist, doing yoga and martial arts, and renovating a house when I went down in 1996 with fibromyalgia or something like it (god only knows what goes on in my body) so I had to learn to use my body VERY efficiently because I had SO little energy to work with, and there were so many things I couldn't cope with. I had the skills to figure it out, and I am an artsy/builder/low rent engineer type and I have modified my world to make it so I could function within it.

Fast forward to 20 years later, I have gotten "better" within some definitions of better, and have learned a LOT. I bought land, and will be building a house on it soon that I have designed to work with the reality of my life. I have a couple of high school guys I sometimes hire to do muscle work for me, they are often baffled by things like "how did you get that UP there? I can't get it down!!" Physics! Leverage! Creativity! All they use is muscles. That's not a way I do much at all. "Do you take apart and mess with everything you get near?" Yes. It's all redesigned more efficiently when I'm done. I CAN'T cope with normal, even if I try. I was required to take a crash course in all of this by my health, and it seems to have been a good education.

Everything in the world hooks together in a permies type fashion. To me permaculture means how you look at things, and how to design it so every factor you can control is optimal and happy. The trees have a guild they like, the goats have what they want to be happy, the chickens have what they want, the worms are amok, and I have what I want and need to make me thrive, physically, mentally, and spiritually. It's all the same.

My world I am manifesting has stairs I can usually manage to climb, good rails to help on bad days, medicinal herbs, a kitchen that the counters are the right heights, a workout space that's bigger than the living room, and most things have wheels on them so I can move them. I'm designing for ALL of the inhabitants of my property, and trying to make us all thrive.

Design your world for yourself, just as much as you design for your plants and animals. Knowing companion planting for the garden is excellent, now ask yourself what companions do you need planted by YOU to keep you growing well?

Applying permaculture principles to oneself ... Excellent thread and thank you Xisca for starting it.

In terms of permaculture zones, some permaculture folk refer to the self as "Zone Zero-Zero".

(Loosely speaking, an overview): In the permaculture zone terminology, Zone 1 is the most frequently visited zone outside the house - might include herbs, chickens, any other elements that require frequent visits. Generally speaking, Zones 2, 3, and 4 represent decreasing levels of management. At the other end of the Zone spectrum from Zone 1 is Zone 5, a wild & unmanaged area where the human is visitor and learner, rather than manager. Zone 5 is the area of your property that you leave totally wild, unmanaged. You go there to observe and learn.

In addition to Zones 1 through 5, some permaculturists use two more zone numbers in their designing: Zone Zero is inside the house; and Zone Zero-Zero is the person or people him/her/themselves.

Certainly, Zone Zero-Zero can include ergonomics, nutrition, and physical fitness, as many people have pointed out.
And, for me, "working on Zone Zero-Zero" means carefully observing the INNER landscape -- of moods, feelings, beliefs (which can be empowering or self-limiting), and where I'm placing my attention. Taking flaws/weaknesses and turning them into assets, in the permaculture way.

Sometimes, exploring Zone Zero-Zero, I come across a "wild area" of my inner self that I choose to leave as Zone 5! Hmmm ... I just now thought of that ...

I'll have more to say but this is good for now. Thanks everyone for a great thread!

Kris Mendoza wrote:

Haha, and yes, garden yoga! As I've become more "yogi"-ish, I have become more comfortable squatting down for activities such as carrot pulling rather than bending over or getting on my knees. It feels better on my back, but probably looks a little odd!

I never have understood the bending over. Sure, it makes for trite garden art (wooden cutouts of people bent over with their derrieres in the air), but as to why enough people ever did it to inspire the garden art in the first place... I dunno, I've always felt that was just asking for back pain. I might do it for a few seconds, to pull just a few weeds, but if the spot has enough weeds to keep me there more than a few seconds, I'm down at ground level, usually sitting, leaning this way and that so as not to stay too long in one position, sometimes sitting on one hip or the other.