Is it compatible to have an income with the three ethic principles of permaculture?

I've been struggling with this question for years. I thought the answer would come to me as i would get more wise and engaged with a permie lifestyle, but it still didn't :p
I predict that in a few months my residual job (some tasks i still perform online for my old boss) will end and so will my income.
All the ways to get some income that come to my mind conflict with an ethic that i am determined to follow (care for the earth, care for people, share the surplus).
Of course that i could sell stuff that i grow, but i'm still learning about plants and around me everybody grows food and there are lots of farmers that do a very good job, so it would be very dificult to compete with them.
What do you think about this?

I have a very firm sense of personal ethics that was well established before I ever heard of permaculture, so this response might not agree with a traditional permaculture interpretation. My mother raised us to believe that there are levels of personal responsibility that work outward from ourselves.

We cannot take fulfill our larger responsibilities to our communities and world if we don't first fulfill the smaller responsibilities of taking care of ourselves. If we don't care for ourselves we become a burden on the world that we should be enriching. With that view point, you are not just entitled, but rather obligated to seek that amount of income that is necessary for basic self care.

While that probably doesn't make it easier to determine how to earn that income, it hopefully releases you from any guilt in the search. Something else to remember is that income doesn't have to just be money. If you can make a list of what it is you actually require (i.e. rather than the cost of food, the food itself; rather than money for mechanics, the repair work/parts) and then determine which items must be paid for in cash, you might be able to change how you look for income. Some things like property taxes would require cash money, but many goods and services may be obtainable by trade or barter.

I just dont see the conflict . Care of earth begins with care of self . If you cannot care for you how can you care for others ?

Care of earth: The reality is that the only way to determine how a piece of the earth is going to be cared for is to own it. Yes, you could rent or someone could let you live there for awhile, but they can kick you and your permaculture ethic out at any point. For most people, property ownership and maintenance requires an income of sort, whether that is from pre-existing assets or from a skill set.

Care of self: with no income, at some point, someone else is going to have to take care of you.

Share the surplus: the more you have, the more you can share.

The source of income and type of employment can take on a huge variety of forms, but people tend to be healthier and happier members of their community if they are contributing some meaningful form of production.

I will make about $300 today, using my cordless electric landscaping tools. The vast majority of my competitors use much more harmful, gas powered equipment. When I'm all done, the load of hedge clippings will be used as mulch at the farm. I charge $50 per load to dump. Usually it goes to a city composting facility, but whenever I'm traveling to the farm, I like to bring a load of hardwood clippings.

I have found a way to make a decent living while using far less resources than would otherwise be consumed.

When not doing this type of work, I recycle building materials. 15000 ton so far. This job also makes money and reduces the need to extract raw resources.

I guess this is the care of the Earth part of the ethics. I'm not at all keen on the sharing part, so I choose to ignore that one.
.....
There are many other jobs that accomplish something useful, in a manner that is much less damaging to the environment than the common alternatives. Food production would seem to be the most obvious for your average person.

But Dale, you are sharing! Sharing doesn't have to be 'stuff'. You share your knowledge, time, and experiences on here all the time. I think that's a big part of the 'share' thing: being open with your knowledge to help others achieve their goals. It's greatly appreciated, believe me.

Dale Hodgins wrote:I
I guess this is the care of the Earth part of the ethics. I'm not at all keen on the sharing part, so I choose to ignore that one.

You might prefer Mollison's version better, which doesn't mention sharing.

Thank you all for your comments, I really appreciate them
I think my problem is that I haven't found in me a skill that would be useful for the community. All the skills I have (IT, Microsoft system administrator) are not relevant where I am located now. Besides, Microsoft is completely out of any acceptable ethic, so I want to get out of this. I'm 47 now, and lived for 43 years at a big city, so... what can a guy like me do at a small community?
I've red lots of posts and I could do (at least I think so) lots of money with online stuff, like blogs, youtube channels, affiliate programs, etc. but all of that goes against the lifestyle I’m looking for: I don’t want to earn money that comes from advertising things that I can’t even control (I find lots of times adds of awful things in permies.com and "good guys" sites), I don’t want to use google systems or amazon or nothing like that. They are the "bad guys" as Paul uses to say. I want to create another reality, one where (as Paul also says) I can be nice and others can too. I don’t want to use "market laws" where prices are made by demand and offer; prices should be fair for everyone.
I want that my income comes from an activity where me and all the others involved (and not involved also, actually the whole universe!), in the end, are better than in the beginning.
I really think it’s a skill problem... and also a vision problem: what skill should I acquire and how?
Oh well... I’ll keep waiting for the answer to find me :p

All the ways to get some income that come to my mind conflict with an ethic that i am determined to follow (care for the earth, care for people, share the surplus).

The original 3rd ethic is Fair Share, not share the surplus.
Fair share implies that you don't take more from the earth than you need.

Taking more than we need unnecessarily depletes the resources.
This is what damages our planet.
Selfishness and greed are the damaging factors that are jeopardizing our planet.

John Polk wrote:
The original 3rd ethic (as stated in the "PDM" - the big black book) is Fair Share, not share the surplus.

No, it isn't.

"3. SETTING LIMITS TO POPULATION AND CONSUMPTION: By governing our own needs, we can set resources aside to further the above principles."

Permaculture A Designers Manual, page 2

Manel;

I know how you are feeling. I too had a problem with figuring out how to align my work life with my vision of my permaculture life.

Here are my suggestions:

While you are setting up your 'Permaculture life', you will continue to need income from a 'job'. And there is nothing wrong with working for money to support you while you learn the skills you need, and learn how to make money in a more 'permaculture way'. So, since you obviously have computer skills, use those skills to get yourself set up. Working as a freelancer is a lower-impact way to make money: if you're working from home, you're not using fossil fuels to drive to work, etc, and you can set your own hours, so you'll have time to work on your permaculture life, and learning the skills you want to learn. So, I would suggest finding a freelance website - I use www.upwork.com a really great site - and setting yourself up as a freelancer, get some money coming in to support yourself, while also working on those skills you need to live the life you're dreaming of.

Keep in mind that there is often a 'transition phase' when moving from one lifestyle to another. I believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with using the skills you already have to help set up the new life you want. So, get some work as a freelancer, put that money toward setting yourself up, taking courses, and learning the skills you need; and DO NOT feel guilty about it. Guilt gets in the way, and it doesn't help anyway. Just do what you have to do to get where you want to be, while making the smallest impact as you can. I think that's all any of us can do.

As the others mentioned, you need to take care of yourself if you are going to move forward in caring for the earth and people. So get yourself set up, and then you can go out and change the world.

Best wishes for your future life.

Tracy

Hi Tracy,

Thank you so much for your time and attention
Fortunately, guilt was never a problem. I do the best that I can, and that’s enough for me. Although I know that my best isn’t always the best for others and the universe, there’s nothing I can do about it. But I’m always trying to go further with my best, and that’s what all of this is about.
I’m already working online. I "kinda quitted" my old job but I’m still doing some tasks online to my old boss. That gives the income I need. But it will end in a near future.
Upwork is very interesting, and I thank you very much for letting me know it, I sure will use it

I'm personally finding it difficult to have an income that is compatible with the three ethics. My industry, show biz, is quite wasteful and usually not truly beneficial. I haven't figured out an ethical means of earning a living, so I've been trying to reduce my need to earn, as much as possible.

i would say ... it s not possible to be compatible with all the three ethic WITHOUT an income.

at least in our society. if i want to help sustainable projects in africa, i need cash to send them. if i want to preserve jungle by helping an organization that will buy pieces of jungle to preserve them, that will need cash.

we will have most of our effect by multiplication. other people see what we do, our values, how we think, how we care etc. they like this kinda stuff and start to apply it themselves. this will inspire other people and so on and so forth.

but if i have no income, this would scare people away. so they won t listen to me. they would be scared away from permaculture... at least most people in our western society would...


then there is the option to have an impact in even crappy but needed jobs. like road-maintaince, waste procession, education, management, government etc. ... if permie-people don t do these jobs, someone else will. i would prefer people who like to make a positive impact in these jobs. in every job or business there is some room for transformation into something better, more sustainable, more caring, more nourishing, more restoring etc. ... small things matter. small positive choices (like buying battery-powered equipment) can lead to more and bigger positive choices. like seed multiplying.

maybe this video will bring more clarity concerning the third ethic.

i myself thought like: "fair share". ok, this means to be nice and give away surplusses of your products to people.
but... this is already included in "people care".

Tobias Ber wrote:
at least in our society.

I would say that these little words are the key. This society is profoundly sick, and having money to be able to help others and make a living is a symptom of that sickness.
Why help people in Africa sending them money? Wouldn’t it be better to leave them alone? We are depleting their natural resources to sustain our luxury lifestyle, and then send them money, so that they can get "educated" and have "progress"?!!
I'm not trying to get some income to help that way. The income I'm talking about is to help me to fulfil some needs that I'm completely unable to fulfil without money. Actually if I don’t have some money I can’t have food and shelter or access to a piece of land that would provide it to me: That very basic right of every being was withheld by this profoundly sick society of ours...
All the three principals are important and complementary, they can't be seen separately. The thread has been focusing on the third principle, because we have the money illness and when someone talks about surplus or sharing, money is the first thing that comes to our mind. But what I was thinking about when I first posted, was about making an income without harming others (and the earth and myself, which actually I think it’s all the same, but that’s another story :p), without making them believe that they need useless things so I can sell them, or that they would be happy if they buy me stuff, or without using systems that are based on the theft of resources of other beings, without breaking ecosystems, and so on...
That’s why it is so difficult for me, a guy born in a city and educated to be a successful employer or employee, to find a local activity in a small community, that harms no one, that regenerates the earth and that makes me and all around me wealthier.

Manel Horta wrote: Actually if I don’t have some money I can’t have food and shelter or access to a piece of land that would provide it to me

This might not be strictly the case - yes, you probably need some money, but it may not be the case that you must purchase food, shelter, and access to a piece of land. People on permies are advertising land sharing all the time - it's possible there's someone in your region who wants to share land where you can work to provide your own food and shelter, without the need for money, or for a drastically reduced need for money.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Manel Horta wrote: Actually if I don’t have some money I can’t have food and shelter or access to a piece of land that would provide it to me

This might not be strictly the case - yes, you probably need some money, but it may not be the case that you must purchase food, shelter, and access to a piece of land. People on permies are advertising land sharing all the time - it's possible there's someone in your region who wants to share land where you can work to provide your own food and shelter, without the need for money, or for a drastically reduced need for money.

Well, i'm almost there... I'm living at a 50m2 house with a 3000m2 of land for 180€ per month. But there is something I also need: skills. I haven't been prepared to fulfil my needs out of the enviroment, and I'm attached to a lot of things that only money can buy. 45 years of urban life under the money system made me that way. I'm doing my path to free my self, and a LOT is behind me but there's still a LOT ahead... And I know that I dont have the time to free my self completly...

I understand! I'm trying to provide more for myself but barely able to provide much. Hence needing to continue to work for money a little. I think because we don't yet live in a permacultural world, we'll need to keep a foot in the present world, which might mean having to do something for money that we don't approve of because it is the only thing we have skills sufficient with which to earn money. There's nothing I'm able to do to earn money besides make things with my hands, but I would not be able to support myself making some kind of eco-friendly craft, so I have to be ok with making the least number of things I do make in order to support myself, while reducing my ecological footprint otherwise. I'm not even trying for "good," forget about "perfect," I'm just trying for "less bad" because that's the best I'm able to do. "Less bad" is a continuum - I can keep making my life less and less bad as the years pass, I hope. Or, for the "let's be positive" types, better and better.

Manel Horta wrote:


Why help people in Africa sending them money? Wouldn’t it be better to leave them alone? We are depleting their natural resources to sustain our luxury lifestyle, and then send them money, so that they can get "educated" and have "progress"?!!

i view what http://www.sendacow.org/ does as a very positive example.

Manel Horta wrote:

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Manel Horta wrote: Actually if I don’t have some money I can’t have food and shelter or access to a piece of land that would provide it to me

This might not be strictly the case - yes, you probably need some money, but it may not be the case that you must purchase food, shelter, and access to a piece of land. People on permies are advertising land sharing all the time - it's possible there's someone in your region who wants to share land where you can work to provide your own food and shelter, without the need for money, or for a drastically reduced need for money.

Well, i'm almost there... I'm living at a 50m2 house with a 3000m2 of land for 180€ per month. But there is something I also need: skills. I haven't been prepared to fulfil my needs out of the enviroment, and I'm attached to a lot of things that only money can buy. 45 years of urban life under the money system made me that way. I'm doing my path to free my self, and a LOT is behind me but there's still a LOT ahead... And I know that I dont have the time to free my self completly...

Just a suggestion, maybe your skills because they are rare in your community, might actually be more useful? A CSA (community sponsored agriculture) or farm co-op of permies might actually need your skills? Maybe they could even share their skills in exchange for you sharing yours?

Hi Scott,

Thanks for your suggestions.
Although this is a ver small comunity with no CSAs nor permies around (only two couples in very similar conditions and problems), I've thought of sharing my tech knowledge with the comunity, something like "bring your laptop, your tablet or smartphone and let's have fun"...

Manel Horta wrote:I've thought of sharing my tech knowledge with the comunity, something like "bring your laptop, your tablet or smartphone and let's have fun"...

looks like the first steps of a business plan. service being offerend. demand will be there.

I agree with Tobias
If you live in a remote community it is normal for folks to have a number of roles . Being the local go to person for IT stuff sounds a do able idea . The GFs cousin lives in a small poor community here in France he runs a small shop part time offering IT help second hand computers Programs for accounts etc etc . There may be such a need in your community . worth a look I think . Why shouldn't a community have people who do a mix if stuff . It was often the case historically in the UK I know

David

I think the people here are very good at looking outward in finding resources but sometimes we forget to look inward at the "property"/skills we possess within.
Not everybody is on your skill level and this is where you have to backtrack the levels you yourself have gone through to get there because all those steps is classes you can teach - if teaching is something you think you would be good at - not everybody is.
The first thing I thought about when I read your entry was: teaching senior citizens how to use a computer. Depending of course on how much of a necessity this skill is. In my country (Denmark) all interactions with official entities (changing your official address, ordering a passport or getting a deed notarized) have been digitized so knowing how to use a computer is a necessity for all citizens. Here you would be helping people while making money which is what I read you're looking for.
Or how about "learning how to Skype - videoconferencing with your loved ones" Skyping is an everyday sort thing for many but not all and these are the opportunities you have to look for.

Identifying at my actual skill set is something I have had to learn because I used to think that everyone could do what I can but here's the kicker: they can't. Some of these people would like to be able to so I can teach them how to make something, sell them a beginners set so they can learn by themselves or just sell them the product because they want it but don't want to/have the skill to make it themselves. All of which is generating income.

Manel Horta wrote:Hi Scott,

Thanks for your suggestions.
Although this is a ver small comunity with no CSAs nor permies around (only two couples in very similar conditions and problems), I've thought of sharing my tech knowledge with the comunity, something like "bring your laptop, your tablet or smartphone and let's have fun"...

IT is a very valuable skill, don't discount it just because it is common in larger communities. Donate some work to the local church, setting up a web page etc with the goal of helping businesses do theirs and either charging or even better, bartering for services. Internet cafe, fax and other tech services are valuable in a place like yours.

Generating income and the core permaculture ethics,IMO, are absolutely compatible. The question we each have to answer for ourselves is how we generate that income. Look at the 3 ethics- care of earth, care of people and sharing the surplus. I grow herbs and produce to  sell to members of our local co-op's CSA. I care for the earth by growing sustainably and organically. I care for people by not charging too much and supplying a healthy product that enriches their lives. Finally I share my surplus with my local 2nd Harvest, my friends and my neighbors FREE. Again, IMO, we should not be nervous or ashamed about making money from what we do. After all, PDC teachers make damned good money from their classes and quite a few users of permaculture write and sell books that are not cheap.

Utilize your existing skills, talents, abilities, experiences and passions to either create or support a triple bottom line (planet, people, profit) social enterprise that incorporates your core values as a holistic system. Earning a living does not have to be an extractionist undertaking.

Harrison Quigley
Onchenda Open Global Food Cooperative
www.onchenda.com

Manel are you Portuguese? Why not go spend some time in the rural areas with the old people who still live there and you will soon find out how to live ethically without much need for money. The old system which has sustained these communities for generations - "you help me and I'll help you" - is still alive and well and continuing to cement community in these places. There are many elderly who would appreciate a hand with their quintas and they love nothing more than to pass on their knowledge and skills. The old ways aren't so very far from permaculture. Many people have so much land it's far too much to care for. It wouldn't be unusual for someone to give you a plot to work on.

Or go north. I heard that land is being given to people who undertake to work on it and revive it for agriculture around Guimarães or Trás os Montes (I can't remember the exact location).

Manel Horta wrote:I think my problem is that I haven't found in me a skill that would be useful for the community. All the skills I have (IT, Microsoft system administrator) are not relevant where I am located now. Besides, Microsoft is completely out of any acceptable ethic, so I want to get out of this. I'm 47 now, and lived for 43 years at a big city, so... what can a guy like me do at a small community?

Just a thought, but have you ever considered learning welding?  It's a practical skill, though it can be artistic too.  It's quite useful on a homestead or in rural communities.

Here's an article about a man who learned the craft or trade when in his 40s:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Hess  He too moved from urban to rural circumstances.

Manel,
I used to work as a teacher in a small town. We had a really hard time finding IT people working for the district. City governments, rural government agencies, farming groups and coops will need IT tech people.  Our IT people were part of a team helping poor children be educated so they would have a chance to contribute to society. You will definitely be doing good,and you can spend your other time growing food, working with others building an ecological food source.
John s
PDX OR

another question is: how much income does one really need?

i mean, when the person grows much of his/her own food, has a modest house (tiny house, restored old building, strawbale, cob etc.) and has taken the investments to be off grid.

everybody will need a different amount of income in that given situation. but it will be easier to earn that number in an (at least more) ethical and sustainable way than the number a normal city dweller would need.

this thread contains some nice ideas: https://permies.com/t/55708/financial-strategy/month-acre

Is student loan for training in health care available in your country? When I realized I would have to change career I was able to get a student loan to get schooling in massage therapy.  That has keeped me going for another 21 years. I have become known in my community as the go to person when they have mystery pains. So I am constantly giving but also receiving cash to pay for electricity, phone/internet, taxes. I also sold $64 worth of berries today through our local farm produce co-op.

Citizens Income or Universal Wage is a hot topic in Europe at the moment and certainly fits well with permaculture principles. Theres lots on the web to read about the subject and I dont think it will be much longer before one country makes it a national policy. Holland and Germany have both run successful large scale trials and more are to follow i understand. OK thst doesnt really help with your immediate problem / question but does offer hope for the wider permaculture society. Have you considered living on or in an Eco Village? That could offer you a possible cash free lifestyle you might be after. Good luck in your new lifestyle wherever it leads. Namaste.

Manel Horta wrote:I've been struggling with this question for years. I thought the answer would come to me as i would get more wise and engaged with a permie lifestyle, but it still didn't :p
[...]

We are in similar circumstances, Manel. I'm also from an IT background and have left the city for rural surroundings. There is call for decent IT people in my area, but more for system support ("My printer stopped working."), which I can do, but my skill-set is more towards system/network administration and programming. I had a painful experience in IT a few years ago and decided that I was done with the field. Since then, I've come to realize that A) I really enjoy solving IT problems; B) I'm good at solving IT problems; and C) there are rural organizations doing good work that desperately need skilled IT folk.

My suggestion would be to seek out organizations that are doing work that suits your ethics. Many of these will be volunteer organizations. Show up to meetings to get a feel for how they operate. Consider offering your services to them. This is what I have done for the last couple of years. I've made some important connections to other like-minded people as well as other opportunities for offering my services, some of which have involved payment. As a result of my volunteering, I have a tentative offer for a paid position that matches very closely to my ethics and my interests.

At the same time, I am making more effort to better utilize the rural property we own, in a way that fits my ethics, and yields a bit of income. It takes a great deal of time to learn how to do this. So if you can take courses or attend workshops, it will save you some time as well as helping you make connections.

Two years ago, I felt I was alone in our area. It was really hard to stay motivated. Now, I have a circle of acquaintances and friends who are mostly like-minded. Having actual people to talk to about these issues is more valuable than one might think. The Permies forums can only get one so far.

Dale Hodgins wrote:I will make about $300 today, using my cordless electric landscaping tools. ....

Dale -- what make of cordless tools do you use?  How many batteries do you need to get through a day's work.

This recent permaculture article might help.....

http://permaculturenews.org/2016/07/01/starting-business-thoughts/

Until we move away from money entirely, which may or may not happen (I'm hoping it will personally), you do need to take care of yourself.

I find the trick is to always be taking the path of least resistance. In this case, the resistance is you. You obviously want that unicorn job that fulfills you as a person and is beneficial to the world at large or small, but you might not get that ever, most of don't I'm guessing. So just get the "best" job you can, and if a better one pops up and is ripe for the taking, transition to that one.

I personally subscribe to the NL/RBE idea as proposed by The Zestiest Movement and many others. I think it's the best example and theory of how a moneyless society might operate, how we might get there, and what kind of people we would need to evolve to become in order for it to work.

Thank you so much to everybody. Your thoughts are very usefull for my reflectionand for my future steps.