Trespassing

Dusty Trails brought up a really serious issue. It is an ongoing issue for me, although getting to be less frequent. How DO people deal with trespassers. Goal, obviously is to not have them. Encounters can be dangerous. My trespassers are normally armed for hunting and frequently a bit intoxicated -- never figured out what alchohol has to do with putting meat on the table. I know that if I "act tough" that sooner or later, someone's going to come along who has to show me that they are tougher. Not a good situation.

Effective ways of dealing with trespassers?

I found this recommendation on line that I really like, but am clueless as to whether or not it would work: http://www.landrights.com/trespassing_intro.htm

I like the idea of game cameras.. a lot. But they aren't in the budget right now.

Other suggestions?

Much as I dislike trespassers, I'd really hate to see anyone get hurt over something stupid like that. Life is simply too precious. Quite honestly there isn't a trespasser out there who is important enough for me to risk going to jail over... They aren't worth it, my life is.  It's natural to want to protect what is ours, but if in the act of protecting, we make an action that would cause us to lose what's ours... well.. we've just defeated ourselves.

Let's see if we can come up with some workable safe suggestions!

45 minutes? You're lucky!

I had a vehicular stand off with a couple of nasty characters a few years ago. I was told the deputies (yup, all two of them for the entire county) were enroute. What I wasn't told was that they were on the far side of an icy mountain pass.... again, those folks weren't worth me going to jail over, or wasting my money on in defending myself. I certainly could have caused the situation to have a different outcome... but at what cost to me? I'm not the least bit interested in body disposal (alright, I did just ask about getting rid of bones... but that was from non human remains!) and having worked a search dog... I can tell you that sometimes the best attempts to disappear a body are futile.

I have a huge problem with ravens. Lots and lots of ravens. They visit my property because it's entertaining and because I occasionally screw up and inadvertently feed them. It's like a jackpot at Vegas for them when I do that and they spend months waiting for me to screw up. When I do, it's expensive. I've lost goat kids to them. They do a lot of property damage.

I had just provided my dogs with fresh meaty bones one day when a deputy dropped in to check on me. The ravens were close in, waiting the opportunity to get to a bone. He took one look at the dogs and the birds and asked me in a very serious and worried sounding voice if I would ever feed a person to my dogs. It totally cracked me up!  I assured him that I only feed my dogs healthy meat!

The presence of the dogs helps limit trespassers, but for their safety, I keep my dogs confined if I'm not with them.

Anyway, no planting the trespassers for me. Makes life a whole lot easier. So... any great and creative, legal and most importantly EFFECTIVE ways of stopping trespassers?

To my knowledge we've never had a trespasser.    If a neighbor needs to go onto our land for some reason, I don't have a problem with it.

I know that isn't a "solution to trespassers."    I guess my solution is to not care unless they cause a problem.

The year I purchased my property, I lost all, as in 100% of my personal belongings, several cords of firewood to theft while I was away from home. It has been a tremendous setback and I still haven't recovered financially.

I live in a very financially depressed county (now I guess we all do!!!). Huge number of disabled and people on public benefits. Lots and lots of drug use. My nearest neighbors are drug dealers... attracts some interesting people to the neighborhood. Big neighborhood, they live quite a ways a way, but it's not uncommon for their customers to make a wrong turn and end up on my property.

The year after I moved here, someone sent their son up to help himself to my $150 a ton alfalfa hay for their horses.

So, I feel defensive until I know who it is and what they are doing. Guess I'm a bit paranoid, but it makes me really uncomfortable when people drop in unannounced! Besides.. who knows when I may be practicing my outdoor peeing skills and get caught with my pants down ops:  Definately a wee bit of paranoia.. your attitude is much better and... it does eliminate the problem!

My ex-neighbor was an ice dealer; I figured he would tell all his clients...and he must have, cause no one ever came down the road past his place.....

Letting everyone think you're crazy enough to just shoot them and worry about jail later avoids the necessity of actually doing so.

That was my thought... I do depend on that "husband" of mine a bit too.... he comes in handy sometimes!

rbrgs wrote:
My ex-neighbor was an ice dealer; I figured he would tell all his clients...and he must have, cause no one ever came down the road past his place.....

Letting everyone think you're crazy enough to just shoot them and worry about jail later avoids the necessity of actually doing so.

In other words, speak softly and carry a big (shooting) stick!  MAD on a smaller scale, LOL! 

Well, I know it's not really funny.  We lost some valuable stuff out of the cabin we were living in in Alaska one time.  We'd been staying at my Dad's place a mile away while he was away for his job, and a neighbor happened to drive by our cabin while someone was loading our stuff into his van.  The guy took off, but not before the neighbor recognized him as one of the drug dealers in town.  Stole some expensive furniture and was stripping out the copper tubing and propane light fixtures when he was spotted.  While I LIKE to live well away from other people, it does leave you vulnerable to stuff like this.  Close neighbors can keep an eye on each other's places when you aren't home.  (Hopefully you would have trustworthy neighbors.)

Not sure how to handle the trespassing hunters problem.  We stayed out of our own woods during hunting season in New Hampshire, and kept the goats up close to the house.  I resented not being able to safely use our own property for several months of the year (some of the nicest weather, too!). 

Kathleen

Sadly I too have to deal with drinking "hunters" (wrong-headed killers is more like it for these guys and gals, not real hunters!)  here, and I have been vigilant for some years to discourage them either by catching them on the land and asking if they should be there, by shooting "at" their dogs (never actually at them, just fire into the ground but the hunters think I am trying to hit their dogs), talking at local joints about how many beagle heads I will get this year.. (always in a joking manner, but just enough to cause some doubt), letting it be known that I've planted spike strips on my land, etc.. Most of these things like the spike strips I haven't done, but I don't mind others thinking that I have.. and of course I would not shoot the dogs unless they posed a threat, but again, these are ways to discourage these guys and gals from not merely trespassing  but doing damage to fences, wildlife, and whatever else they can damage.

In fact as I drove down the long road back to the homestead a few day ago, there was a series of trucks on the side of the road with "hunters" in them, waiting for dog to chase deer from area they are not allowed to hunt, across the road (where it is illegal to shoot deer or anything) to areas where they are not allowed to hunt.. My truck is not very quiet, so this disturbed these shooters, and by the time I reached the end of the series of trucks, the megadeth blaring from my speakers out into the wilds disturbed them even more..

I've thought of hanging an old sheet across the road above the height of vehicles with a no trespass statement. At least then they couldn't claim they didn't see it, but with my luck someone would figure out a way to hurt themselves on it.

I've thought of "decorating" the most commonly used access points with halloween ornaments (there are some real great ones)! But that seems a bit harsh/overkill and yes... crazy.

I've thought of cutting out full sized silhouttes (human) and putting them at random back in the trees on either side of the road (the road runs through my property).

I do have real hunters who have asked and received my permission to hunt on my property. It's the one's who don't ask and who have the beer can/bottle in the other hand that scare me as well as the people who are simply out to relieve the nearest person of anything of value so they can get their fix!

Indeed, drinking and hunting, drinking and firearms or any weapon, should never be combined.

Have you considered trip "wires" made of briars so that they could not prove anything?

I think any kind of "art" that might discourage visitors is legitimate.  Maybe giant penis sculptures, or something. 

That's too funny.... and it just might work! Now if I could just explain it to my friends......

Feral wrote:
I found this recommendation on line that I really like, but am clueless as to whether or not it would work: http://www.landrights.com/trespassing_intro.htm

I like the idea of game cameras.. a lot. But they aren't in the budget right now.

Other suggestions?

Not sure if it would work for drunken hunters but if they THOUGHT you had game cameras hidden and you had such a sign as $5000 per day or any portion therof as suggested in the link that might slow them down.  Or...you might get vandalism. It's a tough call when dealing with people who have a weird attitude to start out with and then are bolstered by guns and booze.

I was wondering about some sort of quarantine sign? Something like:WARNING NO TRESPASSING DANGER QUARANTINE SUSPECTED CASE OF  (CORYZA or  DYSOREXY or EPITAXIS or whatever you want) RECENTLY  IMMUNIZED VISTORS ONLY  they are unlikely to know what these are and MIGHT decide to amble away to another spot. (These are all old medical terms for various conditions,the first is a cold, the second is reduced appetite and the third is a nosebleed.) 

You know, poison oak is a handsome plant, would make a really attractive hedge...

Feral wrote:
I was told the deputies (yup, all two of them for the entire county) were enroute.

At least you have deputies.  We don't.  Technical, we are in someone's jurisdiction, but there's no way they'll come for a trespassing complaint.  If someone has been injured and has to go to hospital as a result of an altercation, they might consider it.  So, there is a strong motivation here to avoid confrontations with armed trespassers. 

Luckily, about 95% of properties here are posted as "no hunting".  Not that that will stop everyone, but there's so little opportunity that there's little incentive for hunters to come here.  And the same factors that keep the cops away - the inconvenience and cost of getting here - also keep the hunters away.

If all that fails and they come onto my land anyway?  Well, prudence rules.  Where does a 300 lb gorilla sleep?  Anywhere he wants to.  You can be sure that I will be getting a license plate number and any other evidence that I safely can, but I'm not going to be taking on an armed man.  Especially not one that's been drinking.

Hunters trespassing on our land has been a big problem for us in the past. Many years before we purchased our vacation cabin the neighbors had free run of this isolated area. After we took ownership I looked out my window and saw 5 hunters scattered about within 150 yards of the cabin and deer season hadn't even begun. We then posted our property to let folks know that things were different.
We learned that those we saw were not neighbors but friends and acquaintances that our neighbors let hunt basing from their properties. They were on the favor system. 

What I do the weeks that these guys, who live in city condos, are spotting for hunting season is begin to cut lots of wood with my noisy chainsaw. Then I cut all day the first day of hunting season up close to the house. Actually the side of the house amplifies the noise! It has worked for the 11 years since we permanently moved here as our only residence. I have all my wood done instead of getting upset.

I did call the sheriff dept recently to file a complaint against our one idiot neighbor for trying to make a tractor road through our back property for a minibike trail. His tractor tracks led straight back to his garage so it was a no brainer.
What helped us was that the no trespassing signs were up and obvious. The deputy said without those the case would have been weak, the neighbor could lie and say he thought he was on his own property.

Don't know if this helps but it is what we did.

I don't know if it would work or not.  But I envision something like that elephant fence idea.  You see... my son has a working apiary and no stranger dares to travel anywhere near the bee hives.  Maybe post a few DANGER BEE YARD signs about.  Line your driveway with "bee hive" looking boxes and see what happens? 

In Washington, people steal the honey! Alright, a one time event (well I hope so for the owner's sake!) But I read about this in the news: http://www.whidbeyexaminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=4421

I have a neighbor who has signs made out of the same materials as speed limit signs that say : Stay Safe    Stay Alive    Stay Out

I like them, they really look professional and make one think.... but I haven't been able to find who makes them. He got them at a garage sale. They look like they were pretty expensive originally.

Feral wrote:
In Washington, people steal the honey!

That is awful!  It's too bad you're having such an awful time of it.  I hope you are able to find some peace soon!

How about some official-looking warning signs - biohazard, radioactivity, etc.? Presuming these drunken gun-wielding louts can read.

Also, what are opinions here regarding ramblers?

This reminds me- when we had our pond excavated and  planning to stock it, we wondered how to keep people out.
Someone suggested a hanging barrel full of bullet holes with a warning sign that said " Warning! Shooting Range- Stay Clear!" And "shooting club" signs.

Our insurance agent said that because we didn't live here at the time that we HAD to post no trespassing signs due to the pond being a hazard.

We are in an area with Rabies- I had considered one of those signs. Like Caution, active Rabies area. It would be the truth in my case!

As things get worse economically, folks get more desperate and daring. I read of people stealing broccoli from gardens  during the 1970's recession.

If you are in an area where they grown rampant, blackberry bushes planted along the fenceline?  Or sea buckthorn..the type with the wicked thorns? Planting a LONG fenceline would  be a chore but eventually you'd have a fence that not much would challenge.besides giving you a useful fruit.

Living with multiple people, so that at least a few are almost always home, sounds like the only workable, long-term solution, to me.

Zones, in the classic permaculture style, should probably help a lot, too: not much in the higher zones is worth stealing, and more-valuable stuff can be monitored better.

There's something to be said for having possessions that wouldn't be easy to fence; the one time I was robbed, it seems to have been partly because the person I was with was using an easy-to-fence computer in the window of a cafe. The same qualities that make something easy to fence, also tend to make it overpriced, in my book.

Sounds like a bad problem.  I like the living fence idea, lots of nasty thorns & edible fruit (although I am sure the fruit foragers would come).  You could also move any dead limbs, trees or brush to the property line.  Anything that would make it more difficult for them to walk in quietly. 

I keep thinking back to Kevin Costnar's Robin Hood.  Everyone thought sherwood forest was haunted, and noisemakers were strung up in the upper branches to scare passers by.  Hunters pretty much have to be in the dark in the woods, who knows, maybe circulating a few ghost stories and putting out some weird noise makers would help.

Maybe invite the sheriff to come out and have a private tree stand for hunting season, that might be incentive for him to protect his chances of getting the big one.

Good luck!

If your hunters are like the ones over here, then putting up signs won't help much. Every year I post the property and every year I return to find the signs ripped down..yesterday even the plank the sign was painted on had disappeared. Next year  willows go in wherever there is enough moisture to support them and a coppiced fence is on the agenda, sea buckthorn and russion olive shrubs all over planted with hops and wild cucumber  vines everywhere.  If I had access to poison oak......!! The vines wont  do more than slow them down but I'm hoping they might be enough to hold them off until the shrubs get tall enough to be a significant barrier.

ive been slowly planting an impenetrable hedge around the property line( well 5 ft in) all plants are thick, thorny, and 6-10 ft. planted close enough so they overlap each other by a ft or more. so far i got 30% of the property done. got tons of cuttings to plant in the spring. in a few years it will be great. i will only leave a few spots open that i choose and put gates.  this on top of the dogs who eventually are going to get to roam the whole place free will keep trespassers out. and some of them give me food on top of that.

I'm very much in favor of the living fence idea or making your place so uncomfortable to trespass on that folks don't bother.  So lots of blackberries, greenbriar, cactus, whatever other spiney, pointy, or itchy things will live there, densely planted in places where folks might enter.  Plus stick some "restricted" and "no trespassing" signs up.

Nice array of intimidating signage available here:  http://www.safetysign.com/Security+Signs/Restricted+Access+Signs.html

(I have not purchased from them, they just seem to have a good variety of signs)

Jumping into this forum, I thought I'd share how my family dealt with this problem that cropped up throughout my childhood.
I was lucky enough to be raised on a lifestyle block ( although I must admit I did not realise this, until I had moved out to the city, a mistake that I am desperately trying to correct)
One of the neighbours that moved in after us, decided to make life unpleasant, we believe to force us out and to take over our property.
Assaults, trespassing and making excessive amounts of noise were all common.
What we did, was to build up a moderate sized earth berm along the boundary line, and to propagate rambling roses along this berm.
The earth berm significantly reduced the noise that we had to deal with, and the quick growing rambling roses grew to be a thick bush of thorns, a good meter to a meter and a half across.
Once those had gone in and were growing well, we heard a few yelps, but the trespassing stopped abruptly.
If you are to do this method, I would strongly recommend something that is either grown for it's flowers, or its fruit. be prepared to respond to allegations of "weed dumping" or that you had planted a noxious species. ( much easier when you can say with a sweet voice " Oh, we thought you might appreciate some flowers/fruit, and so we planted it where *both* of us can get to it"  )
We have over all found signs to be ineffective ( although i do like the quarantine sign idea, just make sure that officials know it is not real), as they either get vandalised or simply ignored, unless you are willing to back them with litigation ( in which case it isn't the sign that works, but the reputation as " those crazy people that sue anything that moves" )

well placed good quality signs with a convincing message

I've heard excellent things about blackthorn as a living fence.  Massive thorns, berries attractive to wildlife, but not to humans, really.  Puts on a lovely bloom very early in the spring, sometimes even late winter.  It produces sloes, which are used to flavor sloe gin.  Not the most popular gin these days, but there it is.  The downsides are that it suckers, and it's not native to the US.  Still, I'm not a purist for native species, and from what I've heard nothing much bigger than a songbird would attempt to penetrate a well established blackthorn hedge.  Gets to ~10' tall, and tolerates some shade.

This sign would keep me out!

One thing to keep in mind about posting "No trespassing" signs is that they are sort of vague legally.

A county prosecutor I once talked to about this subject made the comment that just saying "no trespassing" is pretty vague, since "trespass" in legal terms could apply to most any right.  It does not identify the right you don't want others to trespass on.
So, a better sign is one that says something like "entry denied", "keep out", "Danger, human eating dog", that sort of thing.  Signs must be explicit about what you are saying, or they are not very effective.
We use "Keep out", "Private Property", Dangerous Dog, and Beware of Dog.  They seem to do the job.

So far as public officials coming on your property, a law enforcement officer, like a sheriff, cannot open your gate and come onto your property, so a closed gate would keep them out, unless they have a warrant.  I saw a sign once that said persons entering the property were to treat the gate as closed regardless of whether it is or not.
Building inspectors think that the "right to enter" language in most building codes gives them carte blanche to go where they please.  I would argue that the warrant requirement found in most constitutions takes precedence over a statute that does not specifically state that it suspends the constitutional warrant requirement, which it could not since it would take a constitutional amendment to change that.
Fussing with gates are a hassle, but sometimes easier than dealing with drunks.

Speaking about the wording on signs, the state may have a statute that declares what constitutes a legal no trespassing sign. In NM the wording must include the word "posted" in large letters, then "keep out" or "no trespassing", other wording such as no hunting, no fishing may be added.  A contact name and telephone number must also be provided. There is also mention of a minimum sign size and minimum lettering size.


I personally believe signs that make threats, implied or implicit, with regards to firearms and the like could be dangerous to the cause of keeping people out legally. There is no legal right to shoot a trespasser just because they are a trespasser. That is just my opinion though.

I've been told by those interested in such issues that there was a US Supreme Court case which determined that inspectors have no rights of entry onto private property where entry is expressly forbidden by the occupants.  Health inspectors and zoning inspectors would need to obtain a warrant in order to legally enter such a property, and the court also found that the "need" to carry out their duties was not grounds for such a warrant.  Warrants are granted only when the suspicion of criminal activity can be well established. That said, such inspectors can still eyeball a property from a common thoroughfare, and if they can observe stuff that's obviously out of compliance, they can cite you, or do whatever they do. 

@ Don Miller, I am not a lawyer, but...In some states at least the occupant does have a pretty strong defense for shooting trespassers.  There is always an onus to prove that the occupant felt threatened, but in some states the law is strongly biased in favor of a homeowner/occupant in their own home. 

A note about warnings on signs.
There was a case in our area where someone had a 'Beware of Dog' sign, then the dog bit someone.
The owner was successfully sued because the sign indicated that the owner was aware of the hazard: their dangerous dog.
The dog had never bitten before, but the sign indicated that there was a known hazard, so there was much more to gain by suing due to the sign.
Officials in the news article suggested removing such signs. 

It is fun to read some of these, but better to find out what will legally protect the property owner, especially if someone hurts themselves in some way while trespassing. 

The laws in many places seem to be made by idiots and often is strongly on the side of other idiots. 2 cases in point both from some years ago in Canada; one, a snowmobiler happilly was scooting across land clearly posted with no trespassing signs and ran foul of a fenceline which was partially hidden by snow and managed to decapitate himself, his heirs sued successfully;  and the other a guy who finally (after being stopped at least twice) managed to dive off the roof into a swimming pool, missed the pool and broke his back, and sued the homeowners successfully. In Canada we like to think we don't have the same  impulse to sue at the drop of an eyelash as is the reputation of the States, but more and more it's the morons who are being protected .

Another example of a law making no sense at all (but it seems to be fairly common now) is the drunk who goes out and drives over someone can sue the waitress who served him the liquor.  None of the people who put these laws through have the brains or common sense of fruit flies imo.  So it might be wise to err on the side of caution when using guns...

I let the game warden hunt on my land.  We've not been troubled by trespassers much since that started.

Maybe that's not an option for everyone, but you certainly should get to know your game warden very well, and call him immediately when someone's out there.  They're committing a crime, and he's the law.  There are usually state and federal game officers.  Get friendly with both.

Amadou wrote:
A note about warnings on signs.
There was a case in our area where someone had a 'Beware of Dog' sign, then the dog bit someone.
The owner was successfully sued because the sign indicated that the owner was aware of the hazard: their dangerous dog.
The dog had never bitten before, but the sign indicated that there was a known hazard, so there was much more to gain by suing due to the sign.
Officials in the news article suggested removing such signs. 

It is fun to read some of these, but better to find out what will legally protect the property owner, especially if someone hurts themselves in some way while trespassing. 

Would the owner still have been liable  had the sign said "Guard Dog On Duty?" Then it suggests that the dog is trained and expected to tackle strangers and not just randomly dangerous. I wonder if any trespassers have successfully challenged being bitten  under those circumstances.

I like Willowdale's suggestion to befriend the game wardens and allow them exclusive hunting access to the land.  I also like the human-shaped targets idea, be sure to make these out of something sturdy, with bullseye rings painted on them, and drill holes randomly, especially in the bullseye area.  The casual hunter won't know they are not gunshot holes.

Another fun idea is to put one or more bee hives on the property, then post signs saying "Warning, Killer Bee Infestation".  Who's gonna stop to check?

But seriously, I like the thorny deep fence/hedge idea.