Bench grafting question

Going to bench graft some apple trees with EMLA 111 and EMLA 7 rootstock.  I am going to be planting them in 3 gallon round containers.  
Going to try and build some shelves for them to sit on for the 2 weeks healing period in which I can keep the temp right for them and need to figure out the spacing between shelves.



My question is: if the container is 11 inches high,  what will the height of the final graft be -  rootstock + scion + container =  ?
( how far will the rootstock and scion stick out of the container )

Thank You

Grafts always should be above soil level. Most are around 3-4 inches above the soil level of the root stock.

Scion length is indeterminate. That usually depends on the length of the scion stock, which will most likely vary piece to piece.

container height + root stock height + scion length = grafted tree height, add to that at least 4 inches for first leaf growth and any extra measurement needed if you are going to use grow lights for stimulation of growth.


Redhawk

Many times bench grafters are urged to use no more than 3 buds so you don't overwhelm the energy of the tiny rootstock. That usually comes out to about 4-5 inches.
John S
PDX OR

You may find it easier to put the newly grafted bare root trees in cold/cool storage for a month before potting them. I have generally done that with my bench grafts. I make the grafts, re-wrap the roots in moist newspaper or the like. wrap the bundle in plastic (usually the same plastic the root stock was shipped in), put in a box to eliminate undue movement, and put the box in a corner of my root cellar. The 35-40F temp there is fairly good at letting the graft heal over. Last year I had 93% take using this with apples. Note that these temps are probably not ideal for stone fruit grafts.

The main advantages are: the new trees take a lot less space this way, at least for a while, and you avoid the handling of plants until the graft has had a chance to heal.

Im not sure if those rootstocks are more troublesome than standard rootstock, which is what im use to grafting, but it seems to me your over thinking this.  From my experience apples are extremely easy to graft with very high success rates.  What i do is start grafting in mid march through mid april(in mid missouri)  and plant them right in the ground outside, either in its final position or in a nursery bed for a year.  No need to worry about a healing period they callus up just fine.  I have done hundreds of them that way and almost every graft has been successful.  You could just put the pots out in your back yard and be fine but i would do it when spring is just starting when things are starting to green up outside but its still cool.  Another option would be to bury the pots up to to top and plant in that.  The earth will keep the pot more stable with moisture and temperature and you would still have your pot for easier transplant next season, if thats what your doing.  

As for height of graft, that will depend on your scionwood size and rootstock size.  I graft anywhere from the bottom few inches of the rootstock all the way to the top of the rootstock maybe a foot or more up.  You never know what size scion your going to get and its very important to match diameters in the graft union, so you just graft at whatever height that match is at.  But that also varies with what type of graft your doing. For instance, i prefer whip and toung grafting and will do it anywhere along the rootstock that they match.  However if all i have is a really thin piece of scion, too thin to whip graft,  then i will switch over to a cleft graft and do it low on the rootstock and just accept the mismatched diameters. Those are usually less successful though but sometimes you got to work with what you have got.  Whatever you decide to do with them, i would say find a spot with plenty of room above them as they will all be a little different.  Getting the graft matched right and sealing everything up is probably more important than worrying about callusing as these guys are pretty bulletproof as long as you dont screw up the graft or let the roots dry out or start too late when its hot out.  I like parafilm for wrapping the graft and either hot wax or wood glue to seal the tip.    

I almost forgot, i did a video of last years grafting you may be interested in just to get an idea of what to expect as far as size and such.  Its kind of long but there is a fair amount of grafting shown in it and planting them.

I hear what Cody is saying, and I think you need to filter all advise with some of the details/specifics of your location.

I generally bench graft in early March. The outdoor conditions here are too harsh then, to say nothing of the hungry rodents and deer, to put the new grafts outside at that time; beside the ground is still frozen. A month in a root cellar works for me in letting the callus form and lets the outdoors get to a more hospitable state. It also has an advantage of taking very little space. I typically pot the new grafts and grow them in GH after callousing as outside is still a bit rough here in April. If I lived somewhere where there would be stable and cool temps outdoors without serious sun and daytime heating I could plant them outside right after grafting, but that's not where I live.

Take into account what your conditions will be like and decide. For callousing, you want cool moist non-growing temps and conditions. Bright sun, high temps may cause the trees to attempt growing before the callous has formed (generally not ideal for the graft). Also think about how much care/protection you can give your young trees, will there be rodents and deer looking for a meal, will they get adequate water, etc, etc. Once you factor in all these things, you can make a good choice for your conditions.

Randy Bucher wrote:Going to bench graft some apple trees with EMLA 111 and EMLA 7 rootstock.  I am going to be planting them in 3 gallon round containers.  
Going to try and build some shelves for them to sit on for the 2 weeks healing period in which I can keep the temp right for them and need to figure out the spacing between shelves.



My question is: if the container is 11 inches high,  what will the height of the final graft be -  rootstock + scion + container =  ?
( how far will the rootstock and scion stick out of the container )

Thank You

I live in central NC where I was planting my garden last year the second week of March  ( only had to cover them last year 2 times because of frost warning  , everything lived )  
My plan is to start bench grafting Feb. 15th and keep them on the back porch ( which is enclosed ) for 7-14 days or until the callus has formed. At that time move them over to a non heated building until the weather had no more frost danger.
When I move them outside they are going to go under a car port so no direct sun would be on the grafts ( as I was instructed )
I have no deer or rodent worries at the current time ( grandkids are a different story )

Cody and all,  Thanks for the video very helpful, but I'd like to know how much cambium contact is enough.  I can't seem to get my scion and rootstock to match perfectly as I can see sunlight between them at places.  Is 30% contact enough, even less?  What's the minimum that will likely work?  What's been your experience?  Thanks, Bill (NewGrafter)   PS My cuts on both the scion and rootstock tend to "bow" rather than be perfectly straight cuts.   Any advice on that?

hi Bill,
Im not sure what the minimum percent of contact should be.  I think i would shoot for at least 50% or more.  I find that if the grafts are on small diameter wood, say 1/4" diameter or less, than it is ok if the cut gets a bow across the length of it, as long as the surfaces are very flat from side to side than the bow is ok.  This is ok because the small diameter wood is very flexible.  Simply use the parafilm as your wrapping it to wrap it very tightly, causing the wood to flex and it will take out the bow and the flat surfaces will then be in contact under that pressure of the parafilm.  This trick doesnt work on the thicker grafts however because the wood is too stiff.  Again the surfaces have to be flat and to do that there are a few things that help.  An extremely sharp knife, I use a fresh razor blade.  Get good lighting so you can really see what you are doing and take your time to train your eye to what flat actually looks like, if you look really close you may notice humps or cuts off to one side.  Keep whittling until its flat, the more you do the easier it is to see it quickly.  From what your describing about the low contact of your grafts, i suspect you need to take more time working on getting the cuts flat.  The good grafters that do it every day can make their cuts with one cut.  Not me, i got to whittle to get it right, but i know what it looks like when its flat.  Hope that helps, good luck with the grafts.

Cody, Thanks for the whittling advice...I did graft to the apple in my yard last year, but my success rate was dismal (about 10%).  But I was only doing whip grafting, not whip and tongue as I'm trying this year.  Plus I may have had some "too old" scions, more than 1 year old.  The root stock I purchased is right around 1/4 inch.  In practice on pruned wood from my apple, I've found if I cut the angle towards myself with one swift move it tends to come out flatter, although some maintenance work might be needed.  (And you have to be careful, don't want to slice yourself, these new blades are sharp and unforgiving.)   I really think the key is to get the diameters of the scion and root stock to match so you have the best chance of cambium to cambium contact and in your video, which I just watched again, I see what you mean by flat cuts, avoid the bumps between the edges that could keep the cambium from mating.  The fact that the wood will have some flexibility is a good tip as well, gives me a little more confidence.  I may even wrap the parafilm with rubber bands to provide some extra force between the two.  I'm in the western side of Pennsylvania, so it's getting time to do this and I'm excited to see how it all works out.

On another note, any tips out there on storing rootstock if I need to for a week or so.  Outside temps are expected to be 35 to 50 at night and around 50 - 65 daytime over the next week and I don't have  a frig with room to put these in so any suggestions are welcome.  Right now I'm keeping the roots, surrounded by sphagnum, moist in a plastic bag in the box they came in.   Thanks again, Bill        

Wow you got year old scion to take, even at 10% that sounds like you did good for being that old.  Yes the diameters are very important if you want to get the best contact.  Even with the correct diameters however, it is difficult to make the cuts perfect ovals that match eachother perfectly exact.    But that is ok, just get them pretty close.  Also remember to start the tongue just above the center of the oval, I start mine just above the tree core.  If you put the tongue in the middle they wont slide together snug at the correct location. Lock your thumbs together when you cut the tongues  so you dont cut yourself because that cut goes with the grain of the wood and once it starts it just lets go really easy and down comes your blade right into your hand.  It has put many grafters in the hospital so lock those thumbs.  I think if you take your time, and use fresh scion, you will have a much better experience this year.  Dont let last years attempt scare you, that old wood was probably the main problem.  Apples really are pretty easy to graft.  Sounds like you mentally have it figured out what needs to be done, im sure you will do great this year.  

As far as the root stock goes, i would probably take them out of the bag they are in and stick the roots in some moist peat and put them in the shade somewhere cool, in the garage or something like this.  They will be fine.  No need to stress over it if your going to be working them soon.  Worst that can happen is that they start leafing out, and even then you can still graft on them just fine.  I was just field grafting today on some rootstock that are starting to leaf out.  I remember stressing over that same issue when i started, most of the grafting information sources dont explain a lot of the details like this and leave you believing that everything must remain perfectly dormant and sterile in some highly controlled lab environment.  

Here is some other guy grafting in the field just like i was doing today, notice the rootstock has broke dormancy.

Cody, just to clarify...I think the grafts that didn't take may have been scions over 1 year old, and the few that did work were first year cuttings.   A professor of horticulture I emailed at Penn State said this "Best scion wood is about pencil diameter and usually comes from branch suckers."  So I'm going back up to the homestead this week and get some branch sucker cuttings.   Buds are starting to push out now since it's warming up so that video on grafting even after dormancy is broken was helpful.  Neat tool that guy was using to make the cuts, I could see a need for such a tool at a nursery, but 176 bucks is too rich for what I'm doing!  I'm trying to save the "cow-shit" tree (excuse me, Dad said a cow took a dump and the tree grew) on the family homestead.  Have no idea of the variety and it only bears every other year, but it is a great tasting fruit.  Sweet and tart and ready by late July...great apple sauce.   I'm 63 and only wish I'd started this adventure much sooner.  I was having problems getting the tongues to overlap correctly but I see your point about the center of the oval and I have been careful with the knife, no injuries yet anyway.  Things are lining up better in my last few practices.  The tip on storing the rootstock is what the guy from Penn State said as well.  Thanks for all your advice and help, but don't be surprised if you hear from me again, Bill  

I've grafted my scion's to the rootstock, but have been told I need to keep them dormant (below 60 degrees, as best I can) until after the last threat of a heavy frost or freeze.  Here where I live that could be into late May or even later. So is this really a concern or can I plant them and just cover them with a 5 gallon bucket on nights it gets near freezing?  I only have 5 to plant.  The weather has been unusually warm this spring and the ground is warming quickly.  I'm a bit worried that they'll dry out, even though I am keeping them moist in sawdust and sphagnum   Thanks, Bill

Hello Bill , The purpose of keeping them cool for 2-3 weeks before you plant them is to give the tree time callus ( heal ) before it starts using its energy to pushing the buds on the graft. I kept my grafts  a full 3 weeks in sphagnum moss before I planted them into containers. At that point the scion was pushing the buds ( seen the buds turning green and getting bigger) and the last frost was well behind us. I am not sure if you should plant them outside but I would keep them cool until the " grace period" is up to allow the grafts to heal. If you have temperatures going below freezing you might consider planting them into pot and place them outside during the day and bringing them in at night. If you allow the buds to get real big before you plant them then the are very fragile and a bump or something can knock them off. When the temp. around here dropped into the mid 30"s ( 39 or  below ) I would bring my trees inside. I did not want the cold to stress them any more then they already were. As long as you have sealed the top of the scion where you cut it then it should not dry out along with making sure you have a tight fit of parafilm etc around your graft union. I am not sure how long till your last freeze or cold spell is but this may help you out. I am actually growing mine in containers and not planting mine till fall here. It is an extra step on the ones I am going to keep but it also lets me have a little more control over them.
 On a side note, if you plant them into containers then they are easier to maintain if you get bug problems as well...

Good info in here. I'd like to know more about caring for young trees further on. I grafted 10 trees this spring; 9 of them took and have been living outside in 1 gallon pots in part shade. They all produced about 6-12 inches of new growth. Now they seem to have stalled out a bit, with some of the shoots not looking as vigorous as before. Do they need (a) more sun, (b) bigger pots, (c) some compost? Anything else? What kind of care do they need until they go in the ground, probably next year?

Also, what should I do with them over winter? It gets pretty cold here in Vermont. I have an unheated greenhouse I could put them in, but will the temperature swings on sunny days mess with the dormancy period? Maybe a cool corner with some shade?

Ben...did you get any answers?  I grafted 5, 2 took well...one sprouted but the leaves only came out about an inch then dried up and fell off.  Mine too for a good 6 weeks seemed to just sit and do nothing, but in the last 10 - 12 days new growth has appeared and seems to be taking off.  More so on the one I planted in the ground than the one in the container.  I hope someone gives you an idea on over-wintering because I was wondering the same thing.   (The 2 that never sprouted I think I may have had scions that were more than one year old.)     Also, on the 2 that took I have "stubs" from the scions, above where the tree sprouted, should those be cut off?    Also, if I use the wrong terminology here please correct me!  Thanks, Bill  

Yes, mine also seem to have gotten a little second wind right now. One seems to have died off completely but the rest are showing a little new growth. I was wondering if the initial growth might come from energy/nutrients stored in the rootstock, but then further growth has to wait until new roots actually form in the soil, so that there is a delay. I gave one to my dad which we planted in his yard right away, and he says it has a few inches of new growth since then. I gave mine a little compost, and also moved them into a sunnier area.

I think my plan is to put my trees in the greenhouse, but in the north corner and fully shaded by burlap over the winter once hard freezes arrive. And I will probably prune off my "stubs" in late winter.

Well i can give my opinion and comments for you guys.   Ive noticed my trees have a growth spurt in the spring and another in the fall.  That is what you guys are noticing too im sure, they like the cooler weather and slow down a bit in the heat of summer.  I would not have had them in pots at all, the root systems on trees are massive, a pot will always crowd a trees roots.  Ive seen 2-3' of root growth on some of my first year trees, pots just cant facilitate this.   I just stick them out in the field right where they are going to stay ideally and have gotten about 3-4' of new top growth in the first year on a lot of them.  I would definatly get them in the ground before winter.  A good number of trees i had in pots died overwinter, trees in the ground do great.  Trees are ment to be in the ground, a pot is a very unnatural thing, nature figured all this out long before we came up with all our "great ideas".  I would suggest providing vole protection however, such as 1/4" hardware cloth around the base.  Also deer protection if you might have that issue until they get above browse height.  Plant them right after the summer heat is gone, just about now actually.  That will give them time to start getting established there before winter, water and amend soil as needed, yes i would throw a new batch of compost on top after planting.  The wood stub left from the scion you could cut off if its dead or in the way, up to you.  I might cut it off so it heals over smoothly there, but in the long run it might not make much difference either way.  

I by no mean am an expert but, only doing this for the first time this year. ... I understand everyone has different results. I had a 96% grafting success rate which I have been told by several people that there was no way I would do that good on my first year grafting. Secondly I would do mine in pots again without a shadow of a doubt , I did not spare any expense on the soil because we all know that is what is going to make them grow. I will include some picture of my pear trees and apple trees and the tape measure is sitting on top of the soil .. ( not beside the pot ). I of course looked and measured my tallest trees but on average they are all 5 - 6 in height. I do have the exception of some that have grown 7 feet in height as the pictures will show.  These trees ( I can call them trees now) were grafted in March right into a 3 gallon container, I am currently putting my trees in the ground and the trees have a great root system on them.

BTW , I do have these trees for sale , 185 apple -27 different varieties   15 pear -7 different varieties.
If you decide to purchase any they will be local pick up only because they are in 3 gallon containers. ( weight )
Located in central North Carolina
$15.00 a pc -apple & pear
red flesh apple $20 a pc
If you want to buy them all then the cost is $2500
I do have a limited number of red flesh apple trees included in the 185. ( 4 or 5 )
If you want to start yourself a home orchard then these trees would be an excellent start, They have been grown in North Carolina all year long in the sun and already acclimated to the outside temperatures. As of Monday Aug. 21 they will be certified through the NCDA for disease and bug free. I had the NC state head extension horticulture gentleman look at them as well on Aug 25th. and give his approval that the trees were doing excellent.
336-239-5618
Randy

I agree with Cory about fall planting.  If the trees are planted they will go dormant and get through winter safely.  The greenhouse is an unnatural environment for a tree native to the temperate zone.  Also, trees planted in the fall are in soil that is warmer than the air.  Because of this they put on a flush of root growth that will fuel top growth the following spring.  I have found the commercial mycorrhiza from fungi perfecti  to really boost root growth.

Voles can be a huge threat to young trees.  Wire collars are one way to protect them.  Another is to plant daffodils around the base of the trees.  Voles or rabbits looking for a meal in early spring
will find the daffodils first and upset their stomachs.  This will keep them from coming back.

Hi all:  Been a long time since I posted to this thread...just did my grafting today, 4/19/2018...rootstock I was sent was really "fat" this year and my scions not so much.  Wish me luck...lined them up on one side as best I could cambium to cambium now just waiting for the healing before I plant.  God willing and if my eyesight was OK, we'll hope for the best.  Been a weird spring, snow again this morning.  Last year spring came much earlier.  Hope all are well.  Bill

Hello Bill, weather is messed up everywhere right now. Good luck with your graphs I hope everything works out for you.

Randy, Hope you were able to move some of your successful grafts, still amazes me, you must have the magic touch.   How are your trees doing? Do you support them?  

Randy Bucher

When I first read your post I thought you meant you were grafting M7 to M111 rootstocks as an interstem. On second read I think you're using both but separately. I did my first grafting this year. I grafted 3 M7's onto M111's and then grafted my scions to them. I also grafted an M7 to a M111 with out a scion as I bought a dwarf Red Rome, cause that's all I could find. I plan to t-Bud a bud from the Rome to that in August. I looked at the healing grafts a few days ago. One has an inch long stem growing near the tip.

I plan to plant an M7 into the ground with no scion. It's the root that I cut an interstem scion from. I'm planning to use it to grow scions for interstems in the future, next year.

A question I have is:

I got 8 inch long scions and was wondering if I could get two grafts from each?

John, I'll jump in yes you can...see the video Cody posted at the top of this forum.  Only need like 2 or 3 buds on each scion grafted.  Hopefully Randy or someone else will confirm this.  I grafted onto M111 stock.  Good luck, Bill    Now my question is, can you align two separate scions on one rootstock stem, when your rootstock has a diameter large enough to allow it?

Bill

I'd guess you could, except it might be more stress on the rootstock. There was a video in a thread here recently where he grafted 4 scions onto one inch and a half diameter stem of a tree he had just cut. But that's an established rootstock/tree.

I grafted a MacIntosh onto the M7/M111 combo. In August I plan to T-Bud a commercial MacIntosh onto the same root combo. The one I've already grafted is a vintage MacIntosh. I want to find out how much difference there is when grown in the same environment... the same tree. One apple is very red, the other a mixture with a little red.

But, remember this. I just did my first grafts a month ago, and didn't plant them out yet.

Well I tried it on one of the larger rootstocks this morning, see how it goes...nothing ventured.  If you haven't seen this site it might be of interest.  Grafting techniques https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/hort/info/fruit/graft/graft.htm    I wait until I'm confident the heaviest frosts are over before I plant.  

See if this works...if not copy and paste into your browser.  Works for me that way.       https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/hort/info/fruit/graft/graft.htm

When you buy a fraken tree, Stark has a Red and Golden Delicious on the same tree, do you think they do them at the same time or separately. I'd Guess they do them at the same time. I plan on doing my MacIntosh franken tree seperately because I'm more comfortable doing a T-Bud and my source of the commercial red MacIntosh is available at a time of my choosing. As opposed to having to buy scions when they're sold/shipped.

I'd like to do some franken experiments. I'd like a backup tree, a place to save the varieties I have without taking up the space of two sets of trees. I'd like to experiment with sweet and pie cherries on one full sized tree. Multiple pear varieties on one big tree. I'd like a fraken tree to experiment with varieties of apples that I'm not so sure I want to dedicate a tree to for each variety. I like the idea of having a tree with apples coming ripe at different times.

New question:  Once you've grafted, how long is it before they should start shooting obvious buds out of the scion.  I grafted over a month ago and while 2 of the 5 are already leafing out from the scion the others, though a bit swollen, show no further sign of life.  How long does one wait....is it too late to graft to a rootstock once it begins leafing out?  Thanks, Bill    

John,  Did you ever see this...found on another thread of the fruit trees forum.  "For a bunch of videos on it, search for "Skillcult" on youtube.  He does a bunch of grafting videos including some on his Frankentree which has dozens or maybe hundreds of grafts on it."