anyone here make money from permaculture?

We all always agree about the other kind of wealth that exists, and that is a priority.
And we can still remain in the topic because we have not quitted money.

At least a nice location that gives envy can bring money from people on vacation!
And being OFF DEBT seems to me one of the main goal in life.

@Matu
@Marko
@Xisca
@Dale

All excellent points! And, yes, should be factored in as a form of passive income. I am very much in your court on the intrinsic value of my chosen lifestyle. I do however, see nothing intrinsically "wrong" with the original posters question..." Does anyone here make money?" There is nothing more or less right by choosing not to put a value on making money...just a different filter by which an individual views their world. For us, we have a solid business plan for our farm; we plan to make money. We will not make the kind of money we made in prior business ownerships or corporate positions. Vast accumulation of wealth from our farm is not our personal objective; simply a comfortable living is. We do think anyone looking for great wealth in farming may by all means do so! However, they need to be investing in a very large farm endeavor; greatly beyond what anyone I have read here owns. If the poster was on that end of the spectrum, they would have come to the wrong site to investigate (I did not perceive that to be their case). Hence, I do think it is important not to begin to edge into the position that the poster asked a "wrong question". We each have charted our own course for our own reasons and convictions that are valid for us personally; and, may or may not be as valid to the next persons unique situation.

So I guess the answer to the original poster is that most/all of us are not most interested in making a lot of surplus money (that really wouldn't fit with permaculture ethics) but that we theorize that it is possible to make a lot of money using permaculture methods with sufficient capital and time.

Cortland Satsuma wrote:Vast accumulation of wealth from our farm is not our personal objective; simply a comfortable living is.

Matu Collins wrote:most/all of us are not most interested in making a lot of surplus money (that really wouldn't fit with permaculture ethics)

It was spoken here before... Money can be viewed as 2 things.
- Accumulation or surplus is a mean of fighting fear and equal "money as debt".
- Living ethically is by using money like bartering, though it is an intermediate.

And I guess that when we feel like explaining we value some other wealth than bank money, we might be afraid that some people think we want the "bad" type of money, or more than every day needs.

(unfortunately, those needs include paying taxes that are for paying the national debt to banks! And this ethic money thus is related to the debt money!)

Matu Collins wrote:So I guess the answer to the original poster is that most/all of us are not most interested in making a lot of surplus money (that really wouldn't fit with permaculture ethics) but that we theorize that it is possible to make a lot of money using permaculture methods with sufficient capital and time.

Yes and No. Agreed most have not chosen polyculture / permaculture farming to acquire personal wealth. To say someone who theoretically did make such a choice is outside the ethical realm is a much too broad and sweeping statement. Having been personal friends with exceedingly wealthy farmers / ranchers; I found their ethics an example to emulate. They lived a comfortable life; giving away more than what they lived on. They sponsored major endeavors that changed the lives of entire villages; that provided sustainable safe water, crops, and livestock. The also sponsored bringing in schools and medical to those areas. I am not inclined to assume monetary wealth equals greed; I find that rhetoric is a frequent mantra of those who struggle with envy. We should all guard to not fall into such an ugly hole.

I may be in the minority here in that I am very concerned with property value. My land is my greatest financial asset. It's my insurance policy as well.

When I went looking for land, I wanted to be sure to get it in an area that would hold value. I also wanted it close to a city. I'm 8.5 miles from a population of 100,000 potential customers and visitors. I'm just off a newly paved road and 2 miles from the Trans Canada Trail. My area is gentrified to some degree as I hoped would happen. Phone and internet are now available. It's worth about 4 times what I paid a decade ago. Once there is a house and other buildings built from on site resources, it should be worth $750,000+

I intend to eventually mine my equity and purchase a much larger property in the interior of British Columbia to create a campground with a permaculture farming component. This requires lots of money.

I live in a van. I doubt that many vehicle dwellers have done or will do anything like this but it's not something I plan to stop.

Money is very important to me. If I don't get the money thing right, I can't realistically expect to achieve this goal.

So it looks to me very important to make money WHILE already applying permaculture!
Or else, there is a need to make money in any other way,
in order to be able to put the money into the permaculture plan...

I made a post here on May 22nd, and have just been reading posts here since then.

If someone gifted you with the property and all the resources you needed to pursue your permaculture homestead dream, would you turn it down because it would bypass your idea of having your home support itself?

Every person is free and unique, so each one of us will come up with a different solution to this question.

It is wonderful reading about how each poster is thinking this through.

I cast my vote with the "have outside income" folks. No shame.

@Delora

Hi there! Good to hear from someone nearby.

@Xisca...

Very true! Money is needed to make your farm endeavor (however small or large) flourish.

@Dale

You are correct. Land is a long term investment; and, should be acquired with thought. We do not plan to every sell; however, life gives none of us guarantees! Everything we do, we try to make sure it is adding value to our investment to buffer us if the unforeseeable should happen and we have no choice but to sell.

I was not clear, my apologies. Money is very useful for doing ethical things. If a person has surplus money and reinvests it back into their system/community, that is one of the ethical foundations of permaculture as I understand it.

I am not anti money even though I do think, as I said in that article, that money is a bummer. The economic system that makes up the "global economy" is really where most of the bummer is located. On the small scale it's greed and poverty that are the true bummers.

One thing that would be against the permaculture ethic would be a person attempting to accumulate wealth for its own sake. Another would be accumulating money for the sake of having status symbols to show off. I would have to make a lot lot lot of money before I ran out of ethical things to spend it on!

I wish I had faith that the economic system could sustain itself until my little sons are grandfathers but I have heavy doubt. Party of the reason I scoff at money, perhaps (to some degree this includes property value) is that when (not if, when) the fossil-fuel/financial-instrument based economy collapses the real values will be in the survival sector. Networks of competent compassionate people will be a very valuable thing. Knowledge about food production and homesteading will be precious.

My husband works for money, and the work he does is necessary and satisfying. His work benefits our local community and the larger community beyond. (He works for a non profit on projects like making sure new road construction is safe for pedestrians, public transit riders and bikers as well as cars) This is still permaculture! Plants and animals are not the only products of a permaculture system. Education, research, child care, elder care, these are all products of a healthy system.

I'm with you on the lot lot lot of money thing. Until I reach many billions there's no shortage of worthy projects.

On status symbols - To me, a person who has a good piece of land, a good house and who has useful skills is a citizen of high standing. Others may be of equally pure character, but good character alone does not tell me if they are successful in achieving their goals.Unless there is something very unusual about someone's car, I hardly notice it.

I know several people who have no particular ambitions but they are very honest, moral people. To me they are without status. Their lack of goals and strong opinions makes us opposites. Neither of us understands the other but we get along fine.

I often hear people express disgust in the financial choice another has made. If the object of their scorn has made a choice that harms the environment, I may agree completely. More often, the person they're hating on has simply bought something well beyond the financial capabilities of the person lodging the complaint. I assume envy to be at the root of their concerns.

I have no animosity for anyone, who purchases anything, that they can afford.

I do not however understand anyone's desire to be a slave to debt.

I have plans and goals, but to the casual observer, i would appear otherwise.

I can assure you though, that i am not jealous of any shiny things. I dont want em, and i dont need em!

Back to property value ---- My property has been a huge money sink so far. I expect that to continue for at least another two years. It's not ready for me to host paid events and is currently not drawing rents. There is a tenant who pays with excavator services. We're building ponds, hugelkultur beds and other earthworks.

I believe that this will pay off in the long run. You could say that I'm a long term planner as compared to most farms that produce annual row crops. The price of corn or peas or whatever has absolutely no influence on any of my decisions. I'm concerned with the long term value of my assets. This sort of thinking leads to plans that don't pollute or rely on quickly exploiting a particular resource.

I've been approached by loggers who would give me a few thousand dollars for the Douglas Fir and other trees on about 3 acres of the property. A short term thinker might be tempted to take that money. I know that such a decision would be a disaster and would not work into my touristy plans at all. I'll slowly prune away at the forest as wood is needed. I will still have more standing wood each year as I selectively cut crowded and inferior specimens.

I'm one of those who desperately wants gobs of money. I believe that having a valuable property that pays, is quite consistent with that goal.

Dale Hodgins wrote:Back to property value ---- My property has been a huge money sink so far. I expect that to continue for at least another two years. It's not ready for me to host paid events and is currently not drawing rents. There is a tenant who pays with excavator services. We're building ponds, hugelkultur beds and other earthworks.

I believe that this will pay off in the long run. You could say that I'm a long term planner as compared to most farms that produce annual row crops. The price of corn or peas or whatever has absolutely no influence on any of my decisions. I'm concerned with the long term value of my assets. This sort of thinking leads to plans that don't pollute or rely on quickly exploiting a particular resource.

I've been approached by loggers who would give me a few thousand dollars for the Douglas Fir and other trees on about 3 acres of the property. A short term thinker might be tempted to take that money. I know that such a decision would be a disaster and would not work into my touristy plans at all. I'll slowly prune away at the forest as wood is needed. I will still have more standing wood each year as I selectively cut crowded and inferior specimens.
[color=darkred]
I'm one of those who desperately wants gobs of money. I believe that having a valuable property that pays, is quite consistent with that goal.[/color]

Haha...well put. I may not be after gobs of money...but, if that happens along the way of building up the value of our property, I am all for it! Excess profits allow one a greater opportunity to invest in ones community, as well as blessing meaningful charitable causes. I will never understand those who fear and despise money...it is a tool...you can use it wisely or foolishly. The tool itself is inherently neutral.

Haha, all well said and yes money is a tool, but unfortunately a double tool...
Don´t forget that some use it for speculation and that we pay for a crazy debt.
So yes it is wise to fear money IMO

for the rest, sure, money is a bartering tool useful for exchanges.

And even when sure it is "not bad" (a tool is what the hand makes of it),
we all need to justify that the extra is used for "a good cause"...

Xisca Nicolas wrote:Haha, all well said and yes money is a tool, but unfortunately a double tool...
Don´t forget that some use it for speculation and that we pay for a crazy debt.
So yes it is wise to fear money IMO

for the rest, sure, money is a bartering tool useful for exchanges.

And even when sure it is "not bad" (a tool is what the hand makes of it),
we all need to justify that the extra is used for "a good cause"...

@Xisca,

No, we ALL do not. What you do with your money is your business and no one elses. No one has the right to feel superior over another because of how they do or do not use their money. I mentioned charity because it is a topic close to my heart; I enjoying investing my money in that manner, not everyone does. My point in mentioning it was not a "look at me" it was to address earlier statements inferring having "extra money" (funny how everyone has a different definition as to what exactly that amount is***) is somehow wrong or immoral and can serve no good purpose. Extra money provides benefits to the greater society even if used solely for the earner of said money.

Your other argument is faulty logic. Why would you fear the neutral tool that is in the HAND of the FOOL?! Now had you said FEAR the FOOL! I may have been there with you, lol

*** Do You Have...
A roof over your head? Food in your house?
A phone? A computer?
Change in your pocket? A bank account?
A Car?

If you do, you are in the top 10% of the wealthiest people on earth; meaning, you RIGHT NOW have a LOT of extra income! So lets not fall into envy and bicker over who of us in that 10% has too much...as that is often defined as "anyone with more than I". While I do not fear money; I do abhor envy. IMO envy has caused far greater harm to society as a whole and people as individuals than wealth ever has or ever will.

Hey, I hope nobody minds me jumping in here. Addressing the question at hand and a few recent comments. My short answer to the question at hand though is NO i don't make money on permaculture. I have made money working for farmers - and I have full faith that some of them could make money at anything they set their minds too including permaculture.

Cortland Satsuma wrote: I will never understand those who fear and despise money...it is a tool...you can use it wisely or foolishly. The tool itself is inherently neutral.

Yes but (for instance) THE US DOLLAR could be considered an inherently evil currency of exchange. "money" sure as an abstract - i Guess that's okay. But who controls whats worth what? Us?

And ultimately this does come down to values for me.

NO I don't have a bank account (screw those guys)
NO I don't have a car. I take the bus, I walk, I kayak, and when I need a car I borrow one. Very little of my money goes to fossil fuel or insurance agents
Phone: 25 dollars a month - local calls free
Internet: 30 Dollars a month = Unlimited use
I Almost never have much more than a spare dime - for once I have 500$ saved! ()

There are many things I am still working towards improving. But I'd prefer to attempt and cultivate relationships, tap into 'waste streams', and get more efficient with things (I insulate myself instead of my house for instance.) Some are simple - instead of central heating "Put on a damn sweeter!"

Not sure i agree with this money is a "neutral tool" stuff.

I agree that money its self can not hurt, i dont thonk ya could even get a paper cut from it, maybe enough of it would smother ya, or you could choke on it.

Nothing causes more stress, anger, malicousness or resentment, then money. It is a required neutral tool to purchase most basic neccesaties, but still money does not buy happines.

Cant buy ya love, health or really anything that matters, but it can keep the lights on, enroll your kid in school, buy medicine or food, pay insurance, fines, rent, mortgsges, and so many other things that we cant get other wise.

Yet, its really just fancy paper that our goverments assign sn imaginary value on.

Thus, this neutrsl tool only relieves stress, if you have it

I do not dream of "gobs of money", i much prefer dreaming of a time when less is needed.

But, "less" is relative to your position.

I truly feel for those who plsce thier personal value on how much money they have.

Interesting how the topic of making money morphed to definition of money aka good/evil. I think "how you can make money" and still embrace this specific lifestyle is a relative and useful topic. Do I consider my kitchen garden as makiing money - yes I do - it's an asset and as such I dump it under the making money catagory just like our crops for cash. I am not a supporter of the evil of money, I find it a useful tool to get raw material like land, trees, seeds etc and therefore it enables me to increase my tangeble wealth and turn the initial investment into operating capital to grow and expand and get closer to the lifestyle we want aka total self sufficient. I do take exception to the chatter about everything should be free, money is evil, pennies from heaven, give me, give me, give me. I've busted my ass for decades, spent a quarter of a century in corp. America, saving, scraping etc. I didn't hate my life because I wasn't out in the woods, living off the land, that was my goal for doing the day/day grind.
I also am a fan of sharing our successes etc., but ONLY to those that are busting it themselves, never to anyone expecting that the social support aspect of permies is a hand out , and I see too many of those folks raising hell about "that should be free".

@Marianne
I agree with you completely! And, remember, no matter what arena we are in, there are always those who join in to be the takers...human nature. And, that ties right in to my point: ENVY and GREED (Aka the LOVE of Money) are what produce the destructive elements the other repliers are so fearful of. Money (paper, metal, or clam shells) is neutral in itself. Furthermore, planning to receive a return on your investment is good stewardship; and, a useful step towards self sufficiency. Self sufficiency allows a person to be the Master of his own time; to do with as one sees fit. Like money, time is also neutral; with excess some may do great things for their community; others could waste the time in abusive debauchery. What people do with tools determines their value; and, whether or not they are used for good. I too am saddened that these hate money people chased the honest poster away; his question was valid and I for one appreciated the honest on topic answers that many provided. I quote an early post I made:
"... factored in as a form of passive income. I am very much in your court on the intrinsic value of my chosen lifestyle. I do however, see nothing intrinsically "wrong" with the original posters question..." Does anyone here make money?" There is nothing more or less right by choosing not to put a value on making money...just a different filter by which an individual views their world. For us, we have a solid business plan for our farm; we plan to make money. We will not make the kind of money we made in prior business ownerships or corporate positions. Vast accumulation of wealth from our farm is not our personal objective; simply a comfortable living is. We do think anyone looking for great wealth in farming may by all means do so! However, they need to be investing in a very large farm endeavor; greatly beyond what anyone I have read here owns. If the poster was on that end of the spectrum, they would have come to the wrong site to investigate (I did not perceive that to be their case). Hence, I do think it is important not to begin to edge into the position that the poster asked a "wrong question". We each have charted our own course for our own reasons and convictions that are valid for us personally; and, may or may not be as valid to the next persons unique situation. "

I certainly view it as a valid question.

I'm not shy about money and my lust for more. The moment my farm has earned $1000 I'll come back here to crow about it. When I reach $10,000 I'll do it again and so on into the billions.

I won't just be a blow hard about my earnings, I'll explain how that money was gained. That information will be the only thing I'll ever toss into the "fair share" hat that is regularly passed around. It would breach my moral code to do otherwise.

And when i teach 1000 kids to grow thier oen food, i will crow!

Honestly i think permaculture and organic practices could change the world, and for ME, that is a worthwhile goal. It is not just growing your own food, it is taking control of your life.

If i could change 1000 lives, and die a pauper, i would be happy.......

I am a small business man myself, do i am all about being an entramanure, but i want my kids to know i tried to something more then make a few bucks.

> [money - what is...]

As well as those roles previously mentioned, I believe money acts as a quick & dirty measure of how much a person is "carrying his weight". With (literally) one or two exceptions I have read about in 40 years, if a person doesn't effectively deal with money (the need for and use of) they are or will be on the dole one way or another; or they are a leech, a non-contributor. (There are other ways to contribute, but not for _most_ people.) Money is shorthand for honestly addressing life's realities ("why do we have to work"). There is an aspect to life that seems many times to most of us to be difficult, unfair, impossible to resolve... in a word painful and w/no solution except to get down to it and slog through hardship and uncertainty. When we do this we usually find a way to deal with money; alternatively when we don't deal with money then the chances are we're not addressing our own issues.

Now this is a broad and figurative generalization. Very broad, very figurative. It'd be easy to red-herring around it. But the idea is that money is associated and bound to some difficult realities in life and as such those who dis it and manage to daintily avoid it are probably avoiding the difficulties in their own life. It's hard to see how that could turn out well.


Rufus

I'm not avoiding money to avoid facing problems. That seems a bit judgemental and insulting Rufus. I avoid it because I think there is a better way.

Clearly this is a subject that inspires passion, let's give each other the benefit of the doubt here.

I work hard, every day. I don't have much money but I don't owe money either, and in a way, this puts me in a situation where I am better off than many "richer" people who spend as much or more than they take in.

I see where Rufus is coming from. I know a few users who have money, but I know many more who have none. Desperation makes people do desperate things. One of those things is to borrow, with no clear means of repayment. Others resort to criminality.

Looking only at my own family over the last decade, there is an absolute correlation between personal accomplishment and money earned and retained. Some of us have moved ahead financially, while others have stalled. Those who have moved ahead financially have also moved forward in other measures of success, from education to raising well adjusted children. There are a couple who have made no visible strides in any of these areas. It's understandable. They have no money and little prospect of getting any.

I've heard it said that money can't buy happiness. Where are they shopping? My ability to deal with my responsibilities and move ahead in my business is a happy thing and it's a direct result of hard work and frugality. I have a reason to get up in the morning because I know where I'm going and I can afford to feed the toll booths along that road.

The lack of money can certainly buy a truck load of unhappiness. Peek into the poverty store, where they sign people up for social services. There seems to be more than enough unhappiness in those places. Even a little bit of money can give them a vacation from this unhappy state.

Dale Hodgins wrote:

Looking only at my own family over the last decade, there is an absolute correlation between personal accomplishment and money earned and retained.

Well I've been working in agriculture and environmental activism. I feel quite personally accomplished. I've got a bunch done. People have been fed. Trees have been saved. But money retained? You must be joking.

Another Irony which fly's in the face of that. Somewhere around 70 % of farm interns I've met and worked with have been on government assistance for food. They're working 50-60 hour weeks pulling vegetables out of the ground BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN IT and are not making enough MONEY to but a loaf of bread as well as the gas needed to go get it.

THE MARKET IS BROKEN

Sorry to digress the topic further. A couple of these comments have just ruffled my feathers.

I don't think it's quite a digression. The question is, is anyone here making money? We all have an answer to that question, and yours sounds like both "yes but it is all spent on good stuff" and "I don't focus on making money"

My original answer was similar. Digressions on the relative value of cash and property value are pertinent to the question too.

(Musings on the value and success of the lives of others seems less pertinent but may still be and I just got my feelings a little hurt. I tend to stay away from internet message boards because of the speed at which discussion can become unkind but permies tends to be great in that department.)

Many of us have worked toward noble causes. My most notable accomplishments in that regard have been the recycling and reuse of hundreds of buildings, successfully pursuing dumping bans on recyclable goods and ending the carreers of some of our worst environmental offenders. I've found that to be taken seriously, while pursuing these goals, it helps if you can point to a better way that is economically viable.

Most people will at least consider changing their ways, when there's a financial incentive.

Setting aside our individual economic status, can we agree that more people would engage in ecologically sound food production if they were to see many examples of others doing it while earning a livable wage ?

Matu

I'm sorry you felt targeted, but: I plead not guilty. When I posted about money I had _no_ particular person in mind. Please believe me I was not thinking of you or any of the posters here. I was reacting to the general talk and positions expressed about money with another point of view which I had not seen to date.

Please note: I understand a lot about human proclivities and shortcuts. Having BTDT I don't really condemn anybody for trying to ooze around the hard parts. HOWEVER! In my experience, w/out exception, it doesn't work for shit! And also w/out exception the "perpetrators" are not the ones to suffer the most serious consequences. It's those close to them and particularly those who genuinely care for them that usually go down first and hardest when it comes time to pay the piper. So yes the topic touches on some serious feelings and I think the idea of money being an indicator, an index, of personal responsibility, honesty, character, drive etc, etc deserves a place in this conversation.

Matu, it sounds like you are in fact living w/in your means financially. That is the first, most important, most telling indicator of a responsible person. I did/do NOT say that a person must be Larry Ellison or Bill Gate; I do NOT say that a person must trade what they believe in just to be rich. I do say that a person must pull their weight in whatever way they must and can so that 1) they do not lie to themselves about who/what they are and 2) so they don't harm others buy loading onto them the person's own consumption.

Landon

Really totally disagree with what I perceive your thrust here.

> pulling vegetables...not making enough money to buy a loaf of bread...

Those people look seriously irresponsible. They embody a requirement (eating) which _somebody_ has to meet and THEY ARE NOT FACING UP TO IT! Maybe, to put the best face on it, they were trying something and moved on when it failed.

I saw a public TV show sometime in the 80's about the men who set the first land speed record for cars. One was "Red" Somebody, I believe. A "real" engineer at MIT said the guy was the best applied engineer he had ever seen anywhere - a genius. But get this: The guy was NOT an engineer, he did ALL the design and fabrication in his "free" time AFTER HE GOT HOME FROM WORK. They aired parts of an interview w/his wife and her take was (paraphrased) "He always kept food on the table and a roof over our heads. He was always there for us and anything he wanted to do in the garage was fine by me." _That_ is the honest way to realize a dream. That's the concept I'm trying to get across - pay the piper first.

Again. I have a wise friend that hates corporations. But he tells everybody that the only way goods things will ever happen is when it makes the rich get richer. This is our world that we live in and we are "eating its food". We don't get to ignore or its money - at least not honestly.

Responsibility, in this world, is married to money.

Rufus

Landon,
I find your comments concerning and it sounds like these younger people aka interns are being taken advantage of and are without proper mentoring. I spent 10 years working in the corporate world 60 -70 hours a week and also during that time spent every second on the week-end and vacations attemtping to rescue a butched piece of land 2 hours away. During this time, we saved a forest and forest river. 5 years ago, after sweating and saving, we left the corporate world and its income to pursue this dream full time. We have and will continue to have interns in our home, working along side us. They are fed well, share in the profits of the farm, housed in a beautiful and comfortable forest environment. It's unacceptable, in my opinion that anyone chooses to pull weeds 50 - 60 hours a week and not be properly compensated. To accept that as any type of norm is wrong; moreover, allowing the working class to supply them with their loaf of bread is also wrong - it's not the government, it's the tax payers subsidising their whim. I hope those interns find a friendly, fairer place to work and learn to be self sufficient through better partnering.

There are many worthwhile things, that a person can do with their free time. That term "free time" sort of indicates that it is not time spent at work. For me, those days are "paid time" or "money time" or "chargeable hours".

Those life coach gurus, are big on making sure we book plenty of free time, to spend at their seminars (paid time for them ). I'm not sure that they give enough attention to the idea of paid time.

You know you've got it right, when you find a niche where work time is so fulfilling that it sorta feels like free time. People in that enviable position are seldom broke.

Ok, i find it totally unbelievable that most of you are unaware that some are motivated by something other then money.

I find it very offensive that a person who is not motivated by money is a failure.

According to rufus's definition ghandi, martin luther king jr., hugo chavez and countless others..... all failures.


How about folks like daniel boone? Who fied not owning the ground he was buried in.

Dale, i too make condiderable money off the construction salvage business. Not as much or as large as you, by sny means. Its a good karma type job, but i do it because i csn make a buck at it.

Dale Hodgins wrote:Those life coach gurus, are big on making sure we book plenty of free time, to spend at their seminars (paid time for them ). I'm not sure that they give enough attention to the idea of paid time.

.

In the world that's represnted on this site, doubt anyone pays for a life coach - so far, in my time on this site, I've been coached, inspired and mentored by over 1000 people - they never asked for a penny and usually didn't know that they were a life coach guru for me. THANKS TO EVERYONE OF YOU!

There is a sea of underemployed young people out there. Some really great ones have come here as wwoofers. The cash value of food crops is artificially low and the cost of living is high. Langdon has a really good point, the economic system is broken and so is the food supply system.

@Rufus thanks. I didn't feel your comments were at me alone, I just felt like I could be included in them. We do our best here to live within our means.

I do want money. I want enough. Anything beyond enough is welcome too, for reinvestment in the farm and community. Fair share is not the same as trading from the hard working rich to give to the lazy poor.

There are many people who work hard in the US who don't have enough. There are lazy people and there are conniving people but most of the ones I know of here are folks with the deck stacked against them. My foster brother, blind in one eye from childhood neglect, working almost full time at a supermarket, taking almost 4 hours of buses a day to get to work. He doesn't make enough money to live on. It's desperate out there.

I'm glad we're having this discussion, even if it is a raw nerve.

What the heck happened to the ORIGINAL QUESTION?!?!? [color=green]"Does anyone here make money?"[/color] Seriously! Are some of you so insecure in your own dogma that you can not handle someone asking a SIMPLE, HONEST Question??? If you must repeat your mantra compulsively to maintain it's reality (to you); could you please have the common decency to start your OWN Question / Topic and STOP HIJACKING everyone else is! I for one, have no interest in debating peoples personal, emotional based beliefs; and, I actually am interested in the actual topic! This is the 5th topic that I am finding the same type of Hijacking on. Is your position so weak, you dare not start your own thread??? Do you think no one will play in your sand box? Or, is that you demand everyone to be in your sandbox? Another group of people screaming tolerance...who are themselves intolerant, perhaps?

On Edit: I was quite harsh I know. I am frustrated with the incessant hijacking of great topics. Also, having been PM'g some of the hijacked posters; I am grieved by the conclusions that this behavior has helped them form...as it reflects badly on all of us.

There are no wrong questions; everyone deserves to have their thread treated with respect.

(Like Dale below, I posted missing a few responses; post was not directed towards immediately prior posts, just generally those prior.)

So you regret the off topic posts that you made on this thread, cortland? Or only the ones made by the other's?

The answer to the original question is very damn few are making money growing food through permaculture.

However there is a plethora of huckstets selling pdc design cources etc.. Billy Mays didnt have nutton on this bunch.....

@ Mick

My prior post was on topic...a pathetic straw man tactic on your part; or, perhaps you just did not read what I posted:

"Furthermore, planning to receive a return on your investment is good stewardship; and, a useful step towards self sufficiency...." Does anyone here make money?" There is nothing more or less right by choosing not to put a value on making money...just a different filter by which an individual views their world. For us, we have a solid business plan for our farm; we plan to make money. We will not make the kind of money we made in prior business ownerships or corporate positions. Vast accumulation of wealth from our farm is not our personal objective; simply a comfortable living is. We do think anyone looking for great wealth in farming may by all means do so! However, they need to be investing in a very large farm endeavor; greatly beyond what anyone I have read here owns. If the poster was on that end of the spectrum, they would have come to the wrong site to investigate (I did not perceive that to be their case)."

mick mclaughlin wrote:

Dale, i too make condiderable money off the construction salvage business. Not as much or as large as you, by sny means. Its a good karma type job, but i do it because i csn make a buck at it.

I've never stated the size of my business here. It's usually just me. At one time, I was doing large jobs with up to 15 guys per shift but as the market changed, so did I. I found that my own production suffers when working with too many who require direction. With less need for help, only the more useful guys are required. I no longer babysit drug sick losers.

I figure that I'm on average about 3 times more productive than a $12 employee. Since the work is more sparse now, I reserve most work for myself. Why spend $36 an hour when I could pocket it all. My bottom line hasn't changed much, but the worry and stress level is in the basement compared to my babysitting days.
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None of this money came from growing food. I believe our original poster was interested in our earnings from that, and not our reasons for why we do what we do, or how much we get paid for non farming work.

edit --- Ooooo, looks like several posts popped up while I typed. Another called for adherence to the original question. Fur is flying. Somebody on the internet is WRONG ...again !!! Before you know it, somebody will tell the teacher and all of the kids will be punished, innocent and guilty alike.

mick mclaughlin wrote:

The answer to the original question is very damn few are making money growing food through permaculture.

And there you have it. I guess I'm going to have to rethink everything and become a clear cut logger instead. I knew we'd eventually settle this thing.