anyone here make money from permaculture?

Good question, Diego (going back to your starter post).

I’d say I save a lot of money through permaculture, which of course doesn’t pay the bills but does help me have more money for them.

A friend of mine reckons I could easily make £100 from selling strawberry runners at our kids’ school’s next car boot sale. I had actually already though about selling them - just not at a school sale. However, there are probably other ways of making some money, if I had an entrepreneurial spirit.

In the long run, though, I think we need to see how society changes before we really know if permaculture can provide a living.

John Saltveit wrote:Nice post, Deb.

 

I don't think that it's helpful to worry about having achieved 100% pure permaculture.  

What is 100% pure permaculture?

I wonder how many people become interested in permaculture as a way to make money?

I would have thought that the majority of people who get into permaculture aren't even thinking of making a living from it, any more than people who buy houses are thinking of making a living from owning a house.
I would think that the majority see permaculture as a way to enhance their lives (like owning a house or a car) in a sustainable way, rather than as a business.  Perhaps I'm wrong.

I can envision whole communities where individuals own small lots used for zones 1 and 2, with shared community zones 3 and 4, with small towns surrounded by zone 5 areas. Wishful thinking, but still...

I define permaculture more as a set of guiding principles, rather then a list of specific design items. So I am operating a market garden, selling at two local farmers markets (southern Michigan, USA), I raise chickens for eggs and for meat and raise pigs, next year I will add cattle for better grass management. I expect that over the next few years I will add 4-5% more organic matter to the pasture soil, while raising lots of meat and eggs to sell. I track all my costs and make sure I am selling everything at a price that creates a profit for the farm. Market garden includes permanent beds and woodchip mulched paths, perennial flowering plants for pollinators, and varius woody hedgerows and windbreaks. With everything I do my goal is to put in place systems that can operate on a 100 year timeframe, that is that they only maintain or improve the soil and farm ecosystem, rather then degrading it.

But it is a farm and I do intend to make a living doing this. My veg is running a deficit so far this year because of lots of startup and one-time expenses, the pigs make money ( I will go through 11 this year and at least 15 next. Eggs and meat chickens are about breakeven this year but will make money in the future. I believe you can make money by working permaculture ideas and principles into a farm/garden business.

chrissy bauman wrote:Restoration Agriculture

Link is for sale in late 2018.

Permaculture is about self support and sustainability as major goals.

Look into growing microgreens.

So this is an old discussion - and I'm not sure that Diego will still be watching, but I thought I'd chime in as I had many of the same concerns that Diego had

We've got what is a pretty small block of land to do anything serious with (4Ha), but we'd still like to feed the family (as much as we can) and at the very least, supplement our income so I don't have to work as much.
Finding answers on how to do that has seemed like a challenge, because there's very little out there that I've been able to find on running it 'as a business' - and a lot of the replies here were more along the 'it's a lifestyle, it's about other things, it's about saving money, living frugally' etc.

Which is all great and fine - but doesn't help a lot with that question of "how do I make an income".

..that was until I found Ridgedale. We've just started their online course and while it's early days - I have to say, it's compelling and has a lot of really great info.
They have around 10 Ha of land, and make enough money from their permaculture farm to have 4 people on 60k-or-so euro incomes from it.

Get rich? Maybe not - but make a sustainable living? Certain seems feasible!

http://www.ridgedalepermaculture.com/

I think maybe after 50 years of age I will buy a big farm and rest my old age and make some money  ^_^

It is very complicated to make money from a homestead/permaculture/etc...Though this might not be the goal for many. Even conventional farmers mostly work 7/365 to make a living. Friends "produce" (their cows) about 500l of milk daily. Those animals need work every day. They feed as much as they can, usually 50% grass. They sell their raw milk local, with help of own small distribution automates and to local cheese producer. Otherwise they could hardly survive, as the milk industry pays very little per liter. Another friend (biological certified farmer) even has to transport his milk to the industry and gets just about 0.4 €/l, his milk will be then ruined through pasteurisation and sold for 4-5 times what he is getting. Non-Bio Milk is even just paid less for.

So even if you are a professional, making profit is quite hard. So it seems a little bit over the tops to ask mostly self educated people to make a living from their homestead. Which might not even the goal for many? And many are starting from scratch, have mortgage to pay and so on. Preparing for the upcoming crash, which is only a question of when not if, in our failure by design monetary system is another good reason. All that profit and money will not help to survive an inch, once the powers behind decide to pull the plug.

But self grown food, fresh eggs from your own chickens, own water supply, heating, cooking, hot water and so on from your own firewood and many other things are hard to count in money.

Holzer is another story, since I am among others fluently in German, I have read some stories about him. Of course you do not know how much is true, but that there seems (not said on his farm homepage) not even a small store on his frequently visited (paid tours) farm to sell his food, makes you thinking? He has quite some good  ideas but I do not go d'accord with some of his ideas out of own experience. For example he advocates not to cut fruit trees at all. But there are tens of thousands of years growing experience/work in those trees, they need especially in the beginning some cutting just as other fruit plants to get them in a shape to provide lots of fruits and enable you to harvest without a helicopter!

A professional farmer told me one (he) would often plant trees for the next generation. Indeed some nuts tree take 30 or more years to provide its first nuts. While other are faster, even some apple trees take easily 10, 20 or more years to grow to a size to provide lots of fruits.

what my life used to look like:

5 am  get up...slap the shi* out of that stupid alarm clock, choke down coffee, take shower, get dressed
6 am  head to work...realize i am out of gas...stop to get some...$30 ching ching...need more coffee 1.50 ching ching...need to pee...go to the public bathroom and smell that intolerable smell as i step over the overflow in the floor and wonder if i am going to get a disease from touching any thing...but, goodness i need to pee...and 30 more minutes till i arrive at work...
7 am  made it to work...i am a teacher...already there are kids getting off of the bus...and my day begins...i work my heart out...teaching kids to march nicely to the sound of a drum beat i don't even believe in myself...how i wish i could just tell them the truth...as i know it...but i don't...cause...well....i'm a teacher
12 pm  lunch time...ya know...teachers should get free lunches 5.00 ching ching
4 pm  day over...time to go home...oooppsss need to pee...better do that before i get on the road
4:15...sure need a cup of coffee...ill get that now...pull over...1.50 ching ching...and i know i am trying to quit smoking...but, shi*...it has been a horrible day...6.00 ching ching...a little comfort food for the road?  yep...5.00 ching ching...
4:45  need to stop by walmart and grab a gallon of milk and few groceries 150.00 ching ching
5:00  it is winter...getting dark...arriving home...feed the dogs (50.00 mth) ...feed the horses (200.00 mth) ching ching
5:30  cook for the family...crap...i forgot to get the olive oil...need it for tonight...so, in the dark...head back to town...olive oil $6 ching ching...anything else?  oh yeah, i need some more toothpaste...and think ill try that new shampoo...$50 + gas...i live 5 miles out...ching ching
6:00  back to the dinner thing
7:30 dinner over...dishes cleaned...time for laundry...throw out the scraps...sweep the floor...break up a fight amongst the kiddos...fix broken things....always a daily chore...get kids ready for bed...shower tuck in etc
9:00 lights out...fall into bed

AND THAT IS A GOOD DAY!!!

once a month pay the mortgage on farm (40 acres of land that will never have anything done to it...I DON'T HAVE TIME AND CANT AFFORD IT!!!) and house (good thing i finished before i moved in) (600) ching
student loan (250)
insurance for the month (200)
car pymt (500)
insurance for car (175)
electricity (250) i have a well...so no water bill...ill just burn my trash...that'll save me 20 a month...ooopppss....there goes a new pile to burn...i WILL get to that someday...
food (400)
misc (150)
repairs and maintenance on the place (250) one year i replaced the aircon/heat unit (8500.00) year before that the well pump needed replacing (1500) and year before that...i had to get the septic tank/fill lines replaced (4000)
yep...credit card payments (700) ching ching
clothes for work and for the kids (150 mth avg) ching ching
recreation (football games...gas...snacks...eating out...movies...proms...senior pictures...xboxes.....NO LIMIT!!!) JUST ADD THAT TO THE CREDIT CARD!!!
property tax (1500 yr)
sales tax (10% or more on EVERYTHING i buy)
interest to the banks...well...it all goes to interest...
50% of my paycheck goes toward, insurance, taxes and medicare

that is the tip of the iceburg....i lived rural...sweet country home not mortgaged out...as a matter of fact...only 50% was owed when i sold it after the boys left home...my life was considered 'simple' among many...i wore nicer clothes...i got my hair and nails done in a salon ( oh yea...150 mth....ching ching)  was important though...had to keep up those appearances for all involved)...car was dependable...that was my life...

now...

i sold the farm...the mortgage...the car...pretty much everything i owned...bought a little cabin and 10 acres on the mountain...not much to look at, but it has potential...but paid cash...and it has potential...(had been dreaming and researching AND experimenting for over 5 years) got me and old car to go to town in...an old truck and trailer for goin places with the horses if i want too...but, i haven't...plenty of space up here...national forest and all...everything else i barter for!  oh yeah...got me a tiller, and hand tools for the shop...which was falling down...nothing a few trees couldn't fix ;)

electricity 100 mth
gas 50 mth
food 75 mth

WHO GIVES A CRAP WHAT I LOOK LIKE :) IF I MISSPELL A WORD...LOL...DO IT ON PURPOSE.....JUST CAUSE I CAN! :)  I AM ALIVE :) work harder than i ever have...and it feels GREAT!!! can ya make money at it...i dunno...i guess if you are talking bout the green back kind...it is a trade--you would have to give up your solitude...your personal space...your life--never was much of any returns on those investments for me...could have just lived in a tent for a few years in the ditch and worked in the rat race for what return i got on that farm after uncle sam and creditors got a hold of their 'fair share' ...only thing i like trading for these days are things i need instead of things i want...

3 am...wake up...fix coffee...stoke the pot bellied stove...amazing smells fill the room...i sit down in my rocker in front...and soak in all of the wonderful things i have done to the cabin...just my own little space here on this earth...pull out my laptop and communicate with the world for a while...

5 am...back to bed for a nap

7 am...start my day...bacon, eggs and homemade bread this morning

8 am...fresh cup of coffee in tow...step out to feed animals...smell that clean country air....breathe...deep...for however long i want

8:30 all must to do morning chores over...and my time is my own...so...i play with my little yard critters...or i dig in the dirt....

12-1 lunch time

1-2 nap
2-dark...play and dig...or go fishin....

ummmmm.....dinner...wine ( i make my own) or moonshine (lol...got from an unrevealed source) i dont really like killing things...and i would pretty much have to be starving before i did...so i barter for meat...

hmmmmm....
what else
oh yeah...back to that monthly payment thing
property taxes 800 yr
food for animals (300 mth)
student loans (250 mth)
yep....that's about it...

LOL....there is not much more of a monthly payment thing...sure wish i had done this sooner!!! thing is...i don't want a MORE life any more...that takes marketing and time and energy and dealing with osha or epa or some crazy crap like that...usda...dah da dah da da....Lordie knows i don't wont employees who don't show up or give a crap about my losses...i no longer desire that big nice yukon or lq trailer...or 40 acres of NOTHINGNESS...i now have everything...the greenback does me no good up here...a doz eggs, a basket full of fresh veggies or berries...a horse riding lesson or two...manure...a few home made items...etc....whatever needs done...a little job...a sell or barter of whatever...now....that is my new monetary system...and it is REAL :)  yep, i work...i work HARD when i work...do i make ends meet...you betcha...AND ALWAYS HAVE SOME LEFT OVER AT THE END OF THE MONTH...LOL...it is AMAZING...and even i dont know how i do it....sitting with an elderly person for a day...mowing a neighbors yard...bushhogging his pasture...feeding his cows...cleaning a house...etc...whatever...whenever...always available to do whatever...just no substitute teaching...lol

soooooo....ummmmm....i dunno...LOL...i suppose 'LIVING WITHIN YOUR MEANS'....even if it means a SOD HOUSE and homeschooling your children...should mean something here :) most folks don't get that...

opportunity cost comes to mind...or was that opportunity lost...LOL

For people looking to make a permacultre business plan i highly recommend this book "The Permaculture market garden: a visual guide to profitable whole systems farm business" by Geoff Loeks.  The book blew away my expectation, owning many garden permacultre book I was presently surprised by how much this book helped me visualize a permaculture based business plan.   He teaches about building guild business's 3-4 different elements that feed into each other and make up the total years income.    His example way, CSA, Education, Garlic seed.  They spread out throughout the year, each with their prime time of work.  The book also covers the importance of Design in work flows from one production area to another...

This is certainly an intriguing conversation. I too have a goal of working on the farm full time. I've been considering different offerings to the community. Next year we getting more hens and growing more of the their food. We are relocating the composting pile to be nearer. We are also expanding our flower beds with a focus on themed beds. Edible flowers, pollinators, and dye plants. I really hope to be able to pay my mortgage with our land.
We all spend money, I think it's ok to discuss how to make a permacutlure farm profitable. Paul even mentions this several time in his new book. I'd really like to do something i really love. Something I am really passionate about. Farming, restoration and regenerative systems help lift my head and being from slumber.

I see you are in Virginia Diego?
You may want to check out Abundant Permaculture https://abundantpermaculture.com/

Blessings ya'll.

Diego

Lots of answers, and Im happy you asked. I think multiple incomes is key (coming from a guy new to permaculutre, so what do I know). It just seems to me that if permaculture is so sustainable and more importantly, abundant, why is income difficult to come by?

Mike Homest wrote:It is very complicated to make money from a homestead/permaculture/etc...Though this might not be the goal for many. Even conventional farmers mostly work 7/365 to make a living. Friends "produce" (their cows) about 500l of milk daily. Those animals need work every day. They feed as much as they can, usually 50% grass. They sell their raw milk local, with help of own small distribution automates and to local cheese producer. Otherwise they could hardly survive, as the milk industry pays very little per liter. Another friend (biological certified farmer) even has to transport his milk to the industry and gets just about 0.4 €/l, his milk will be then ruined through pasteurisation and sold for 4-5 times what he is getting. Non-Bio Milk is even just paid less for.

So even if you are a professional, making profit is quite hard. So it seems a little bit over the tops to ask mostly self educated people to make a living from their homestead. Which might not even the goal for many? And many are starting from scratch, have mortgage to pay and so on. Preparing for the upcoming crash, which is only a question of when not if, in our failure by design monetary system is another good reason. All that profit and money will not help to survive an inch, once the powers behind decide to pull the plug.

But self grown food, fresh eggs from your own chickens, own water supply, heating, cooking, hot water and so on from your own firewood and many other things are hard to count in money.

Holzer is another story, since I am among others fluently in German, I have read some stories about him. Of course you do not know how much is true, but that there seems (not said on his farm homepage) not even a small store on his frequently visited (paid tours) farm to sell his food, makes you thinking? He has quite some good  ideas but I do not go d'accord with some of his ideas out of own experience. For example he advocates not to cut fruit trees at all. But there are tens of thousands of years growing experience/work in those trees, they need especially in the beginning some cutting just as other fruit plants to get them in a shape to provide lots of fruits and enable you to harvest without a helicopter!

A professional farmer told me one (he) would often plant trees for the next generation. Indeed some nuts tree take 30 or more years to provide its first nuts. While other are faster, even some apple trees take easily 10, 20 or more years to grow to a size to provide lots of fruits.

    You don't need a helicopter to harvest from a full-size fruit tree. Just send a couple boys up, and they'll have the time of their lives munching on apples and letting down baskets. Some of my most treasured memories are of this beautiful farm owned by a friend of ours who let us come pick fruit from his extremely abundant orchard every fall, although we would certainly have paid him handsomely by the pound if he had asked. I and my brothers would go up in the trees and form a system that was something of a bucket brigade, something of an all-you-can-eat buffet, and something of a tree climbing contest.

I never I intended to make money at this.

I get the feeling you have to raise animals to make money off of permaculture.

I have spent the last month reading through the entire thread, taken notes, and made a book list. Thanks everyone.

My two coins - at first the OP’s question seemed brash, but now I appreciate his directness.

As others have pointed out, farm income streams are low margin and need to appropriately scale (niche on one side or high volume on the other, tougher in the middle) to find the profit. Diego’s question was quite focused on selling products grown (or raised) on farm land. Fine place to start a business plan. I sure am glad there are people out there who are passionate about growing stuff.

Boosting a farm business plan with permaculture (and other) design strategies can help to make it resilient and the scale issues become less persistent.

A few notes, some have been said before:
Diversify the products that will leave the farm to customers: Animals and meat, eggs, dairy, fruit, vegetables, mushrooms, honey, firewood, seeds, starts, cuttings, canes, etc.

With a little extra processing: jams, jellies, cheese, pickles, wood chips, mulch, compost, wool, felt, etc.

With customers onsite: tours, day camps, school groups, you-pick setups, classes, etc.

Farm knowledge as a yield: Shed building, tractor repair, tool maintenance, land surveying, sheering services, mobile slaughter, horse shoeing, livestock guardian dog training, solar power installations, pump repair, etc.

These are just a few ideas that tie directly to farm and land use, there are many many more.

The keys to getting the right group of yields set up, and minimizing time and cash inputs, and finding a market for one’s products is hard work and it takes patience and adaptability. What worked 5 years ago may not work today. With a highly diverse system the farmer can hopefully guard against market fluctuations by maintaining the elements that work, and updating only the underperforming parts of the system. All of this assumes one has land, and time to devote to setting up or learning to optimize the farm systems. If one does not, that is another hurdle to jump. Setting up farm systems, marketing, and building community (It cannot be stressed enough that good relationships with the community can make or break any business starting out) are almost three separate skills.

Farmers can earn a profit. Permaculture designs can be used by farmers that earn a profit. I appreciate the spirit of this thread because it highlights examples for people who want to earn a living, and use permaculture, and do not want to write or teach design courses for a living.  

Awesome post Jay!

Very well said. There are so many ways permaculture can relate to a business. From watersheds, communities and farms.
I really want to create a farm that provides much of what we need and have some extra to trade/sell.
Best of luck on your growing adventure. Lots of great books mentioned here.  

Hi Diego,
I saw someone mentioned Zaytuna Farms. I received my PDC from Geoff Lawton and crew. He does make money from his farm production. Check with Permaculture Farms in Vermont. Probably Ben Falk would be a goo start. There are also Compost creators in Vermont that make a good living in Vermont as well.
I’m in Georgia and I am researching how I can farm commercially staying true to permaculture. I understand why farmers here poo poo the idea of permaculture from the tax credits they receive alone following the rules of industrial agriculture. It’s hard to explain the long term benefits to folks who see the dollars from state and county.
Maybe one day all states in the U.S. will offer subsidies to farm holistically.

I personally know two people who earn their entire livelihood from permaculture. No trust fund, no second job, no outside income, little to no money from books or classes. One of them does make some money from youtube, but hey, he’s diversified, and I’ll bet if that income stream disappeared he would replace it with something else in the permaculture realm.  They both own nurseries, they are both waaaayyyyy beyond organic, hard core permaculture with very few compromises. One is Edible Acres, the other is Twisted Tree. Of course a big part of their permaculture practice is that they have figured out how to live well on way less money than the average westerner. So yes it absolutely can be done! However if you are someone with an appetite for lots of expensive stuff, no it probably cannot be done. But the whole point is to live well while making an extremely minimal impact.

This is a very important question. To change the nature of American farming, we have to provide a higher profit margin than the current paradigm to entice current large farms to make the switch to environmental sustainability. Farms are barely profitable now. This should be a low bar to hurdle, but permaculture is falling short in profitability and therefore viability for large scale farm replacement. If, as a community, we can solve this problem for conventional agriculture, then they will slowly start converting and changing the American food supply. This is the holy grail of sustainability. Part of the problem is that food is cheap. As food prices rise the scale of profitability could tip.

Geoff Lawton suggests everyone growing food for themselves and a couple neighbors on suburban lots is a new approach to the food supply chain. While this could work and is an admirable direction, not everyone has an interest in food production. The economy runs on people specializing. There is a guy, I don't know his name, who is making a living farming suburban lots. He provides a produce box to the property owner and sells the surplus at a farmers market. He is profitable. There is another guy buying cheap land in Detroit and planting fruit and nut trees. He may be profitable, but he found an opportunity that we don't all have access to.

One of the problems, as you noticed, is that the people who are drawn to permaculture aren't interested in profitability and in some cases are repulsed by the concept. People who are focused on profitability are not looking at farms or the environment. You sir, are rare. However this intersection is the key to tipping permaculture from fringe to mainstream, which is something we can all get behind.

This is a great thread (and my second post)!

I had several of the same questions, and I'd love to see if @Jay ever actually wrote the book he outlined above.

Lots to read through and consider.

I'm in Northern VA, work in Downtown DC, and am an entrepreneur/investor interested in the profitability of permaculture -- but primarily in the quality of life it can provide for me and my community.

Looking forward to learning/contributing for fun & financial gain.

-E  

I guess it's like anything - what you get out is a measure of what you put in. Unfortunately, it's very hard to make that transition from corp work to homestead work - because each requires a full time version of yourself. Especially when your property is hours away. (Mine is interstate!)

We've been trying to plan the transition:
* I'm going to try to get work closer to the property. I'm hoping with - well you know ... that there are more wfh opportunities, so location will be less important.
* I'm exploring buying a cheap caravan (or something) so there's somewhere to stay
* Thinking about planting trees first - hopefully they'll be bearing fruit by the time we fully arrive.

I guess the other factor is that while there may not be as much money coming in, there'll be a lot less going out (e.g. with reduced heating bills; some food; etc).

Good luck though - and please let us know how you manage to do it.

A tale of two incomes:

1. earn $50k in the city, pay out $45k *just to live* (home, utilities, etc.) bonus: high-stress, musical-chairs on the job and roof over your head, and so on. You might have $5k left over, but everyone is still working to get that, too. Welcome to the rat race, wage servitude, whatever ... by the way, they will age you out after 20 to 40 years of this ... no choice in the matter.

2. earn $5k on a mortgage-free off-grid homestead, and *keep it all*. Same $5k at the end of the year, and nobody trying to take it from you. Bonus: no stress, roof for life, etc. Life slows way down.

What's the difference between these two scenarios? A simple decision. Make a *decision* to get to mortgage-free and off-grid (the 1st step), and then do it (a series of steps after that).

Do you have reasons why *you* can't get to mortgage-free and off-grid? Sure ... but do they really exist anywhere but in your own mind? Take the 1st step, and *decide* to do it. The world needs everyone to be cogs in the rat race, so nobody will tell you about this, or make it easy for you.

Once you make that decision, everything else is just another step on the path.

We're a family of 4, mortgage-free and off-grid ...

Diego de la Vega wrote:Does anyone here make money?  This is a very blunt question, but let me be more specific.  Does anyone here make enough money on their agriculture (permaculture) sales to support themselves (pay bills, mortgage, clothing, electric, etc).
Diego

I have a similar question, but the only real reason I need money right now is to pay off my student loans from my previous college degree. I borrowed way too much money (about $75,000) and now the loan sharks are after me. I am disappointed that so many employers demand 7-8 hours work days with no weekend time off. With my current living arrangement, I need to set aside more time for planting and harvesting during some parts of the year than others, so an eight hour work day is unsuitable for me to have a proper maintenance schedule for plant and animal care that is alligned with the seasons. This is especially a problem during later Fall and Winter when the sun sets earlier than 5:00 PM in my region and I still have some cold weather crops in the ground that I need to harvest after sunset.