John Saltveit wrote:Nice post, Deb.
I don't think that it's helpful to worry about having achieved 100% pure permaculture.
chrissy bauman wrote:Restoration Agriculture
Mike Homest wrote:It is very complicated to make money from a homestead/permaculture/etc...Though this might not be the goal for many. Even conventional farmers mostly work 7/365 to make a living. Friends "produce" (their cows) about 500l of milk daily. Those animals need work every day. They feed as much as they can, usually 50% grass. They sell their raw milk local, with help of own small distribution automates and to local cheese producer. Otherwise they could hardly survive, as the milk industry pays very little per liter. Another friend (biological certified farmer) even has to transport his milk to the industry and gets just about 0.4 €/l, his milk will be then ruined through pasteurisation and sold for 4-5 times what he is getting. Non-Bio Milk is even just paid less for.
So even if you are a professional, making profit is quite hard. So it seems a little bit over the tops to ask mostly self educated people to make a living from their homestead. Which might not even the goal for many? And many are starting from scratch, have mortgage to pay and so on. Preparing for the upcoming crash, which is only a question of when not if, in our failure by design monetary system is another good reason. All that profit and money will not help to survive an inch, once the powers behind decide to pull the plug.
But self grown food, fresh eggs from your own chickens, own water supply, heating, cooking, hot water and so on from your own firewood and many other things are hard to count in money.
Holzer is another story, since I am among others fluently in German, I have read some stories about him. Of course you do not know how much is true, but that there seems (not said on his farm homepage) not even a small store on his frequently visited (paid tours) farm to sell his food, makes you thinking? He has quite some good ideas but I do not go d'accord with some of his ideas out of own experience. For example he advocates not to cut fruit trees at all. But there are tens of thousands of years growing experience/work in those trees, they need especially in the beginning some cutting just as other fruit plants to get them in a shape to provide lots of fruits and enable you to harvest without a helicopter!
A professional farmer told me one (he) would often plant trees for the next generation. Indeed some nuts tree take 30 or more years to provide its first nuts. While other are faster, even some apple trees take easily 10, 20 or more years to grow to a size to provide lots of fruits.
Diego [surl='https://richsoil.com/diatomaceous-earth.jsp' class='api' title='diatomaceous earth article wrote:de[/surl] la Vega]Does anyone here make money? This is a very blunt question, but let me be more specific. Does anyone here make enough money on their agriculture (permaculture) sales to support themselves (pay bills, mortgage, clothing, electric, etc).
Diego's question got me reminiscing.... When I first learned about Drawdown (and before the book was published), I wrote to complain that permaculture was not included, something that surprised me given Eric Toensmeier's involvement. Someone actually responded, kindly explaining that permaculture is not widespread enough: "Permaculture itself is not a solution on our list, as it is not currently viable on scale we can consider globally." Not long after that, we were driving through The Palouse in southeastern Washington State and my husband asked me how permaculture could ever be done at that scale -- that is, could permaculture ever scale up enough to feed the world?
So that is my lingering permaculture design question: Is the whole point of permaculture that we don't have to scale it up because everyone can do it, practically everywhere? In other words, can permaculture feed the world, or is the human population now so big that only industrial-scale agriculture can feed us all? And when the climate change $#@! really starts hitting the fan in the world's bread baskets, is that when permaculturalists will start making the big bucks?
Diego de la Vega wrote:
Tyler Ludens wrote:Another example: Zaytuna Farm grows produce for 30,000 meals per year, but the produce is not sold, it is used on the farm, saving the cost of buying that much food. But that is saving money, not making it. http://permaculturenews.org/2012/06/01/zaytuna-farm-video-tour-apr-may-2012-ten-years-of-revolutionary-design/
30,000 meals per year, but I'm not sure it "counts."
That is a very developed system that is quite large and yet it only produces enough food to feed 27 people (30,000 meals/365 days per year/3 meals per person =27 people). Oce person eats 1095 meals a year (3 meals/day x 365 days). No question, what they have created is amazing, and it seems like they have a whole lot of food. I do not understand why they do not produce more meals than that. Are they distributing what they cannot eat? Is there more to this story that we are not getting or is it too optimistic to expect to produce more food than this on 66 acres in a sustainable way? Their system needs 2.44 acres per person to create enough food to sustain them (66 acres/27 people fed per year = 2.44 acres/person per year).
Diego de la Vega wrote:Does anyone here make money? This is a very blunt question, but let me be more specific. Does anyone here make enough money on their agriculture (permaculture) sales to support themselves (pay bills, mortgage, clothing, electric, etc).