OTIS get a PEP Certification?

In Why are you doing pep thread there was a little bit of discussion about OTISes participating in permaculture learning stuff including PEP and events at Wheaton labs. I really don't see any reason an OTIS shouldn't try to get a PEP cert themself, I can think of several reasons why they could benefit from participating:

1. They have a better understanding of what the SKIPper knows, you might even say a firsthand experience, and what the program entails.
2. They may meet candidates at the events as peers, instead of immediately being identified as an OTIS. This might help them determine if candidates fit with them socially.
3.They may get ideas for what types of things to offer Woofers or at an event on their property to facilitate others learning PEP during the program
4. Purple/social aspects and benefits - hang out with others, excuses to chat in the forum
5. They can learn skills they don't already have or brush up on/perfect ones they do.
6. They can show off their knowledge and accomplishments in a non-obnoxious way if they are so inclined. And do it in a way where they are showing instead of telling.
7. They are potentially fiscally supporting the community through ticketing and such

Are there more reasons an OTIS might benefit from getting PEP cert themself and/or attending/participating in events?

Who has one or more reasons they shouldn't?

To be clear, I wasn't advocating it be mandatory that an Otis participate in any way, just suggesting that a potential Otis/Otessa explore the program and/or events could be of benefit to them.

It takes a lot of time and effort to actually get PEP certified, and they'd probably have to redo things they've already done to have the proper documentation. That's my only reasoning for why they *shouldn't* get certified. But exactly for the reasons that you pointed out, I think it would be really beneficial to participate in PEP as an Otis, particularly with attending events. If I had land that needed a steward, I'd like to interact with the prospective person and observe their work ethic.

Going to the event would really be helpful to get to know the participants, though getting the certification might be too much.

And we don't want to scare them off.

Anne Miller wrote:Going to the event would really be helpful to get to know the participants, though getting the certification might be too much.

And we don't want to scare them off.

Well I certainly wasn't proposing it should be mandatory, maybe "suggested as something to explore?" And you're right, I think participating in pep is more important than getting a specific level... Maybe I'll edit

I've been thinking of using SKIP for finding someone to help on the farm.  I did a few badges to see what it was like, and will probably do some more.  On the whole, I probably won't go in for full PEP as my body isn't up for many of the tasks and I feel that I have other venues to share what I make like my youtube channel and my book.

But I'm also the kind of person who does poorly in 101 classes and learn the basics by doing the complex stuff, so a lot of the first two years of PEP would be hard for me to do.  I'm feeling confident I know how to raise chickens because people travel up to three hours just to buy our eggs and the waitlist is three weeks in the high season.  Our hens are happy and the farm established.  I don't have time to go back and do a bunch of basic tasks for bages - at this stage in my life.  

But I might later is the opportunity arises because I would learn a lot by doing the tasks I don't enjoy.

For me a lot of SKIP is about proving we can do a thing.  There are many paths to prove this be it establishing a healthy farm or working through a set programme.  

I have already got land, and hopefully I won't need to be an Otessa, but I have done a smattering of BB's for several reasons:
1. Definitely so that I would have a feel for the program and what it would take a person to achieve the different levels.
2. The BB's I did were chosen either out of interest, or because I had a need for the result - I needed to mend some things, so it was neat to try some different techniques. It gave me confidence that if I need to mend something that wasn't "farm clothes" I could do so and make it look better than new!
3. I specifically chose a few BB's that no one else had yet done, or done using atypical materials, to give people a real life example. One of these was I rendered fat from a goose I processed. Most of the examples of rendered fats were from pigs which is a larger animal than some smaller homesteads could handle.

So yes, I'm in the camp that I think it's helpful to do a few - ideally in several different areas - but I don't think going all the way to a full PEP1 or higher would be possible for me, or the best use of my time.

Some of the things that PEP focuses on, aren't that applicable to my homestead or my ecosystem, so that is also a factor.  One example of that is the bean trellis that has to be 7 ft tall. Now if they'd allow me to make it 6 feet vertically and several feet horizontally from that height, I'd be good with that, but most of my land is too uneven and I have enough fruit trees that force me to woman-handle a ladder - I'd like to pick my beans with my feet planted firmly on the ground!

Let us assume for a moment that I am the 85 yo lady Otis, living alone, owning a beautiful piece of land. Lots of sweat and tears of my own went into making this place the paradise it is now. It’s not perfect, but has been managed for decades as a natural, waay better than organic, mostly self sufficient place to provide food and shelter and work place for many people.

I want to “will” it to a person or a couple that can prove it to me that they will continue the work I started, and make it a hundred times better.

I find this SKIP program, and it all sounds so great, but wait, I need to get PEP “certified” before I can find someone suitable and work with them to get this process going.

At my age, or even if I was 10 years younger, will I be considering this? What do I need to “prove” to someone?

PS: there is a possibility, of course, that not all Otises are advanced in age, and they might consider participating in events and meeting potential peppers in person and so on. I think the number of those kind of Otises compared to the rest of them does not justify the “should” get PEP certified suggestion.

THIS:

Liv Smith wrote:Let us assume for a moment that I am the 85 yo lady Otis, living alone, owning a beautiful piece of land. Lots of sweat and tears of my own went into making this place the paradise it is now. It’s not perfect, but has been managed for decades as a natural, waay better than organic, mostly self sufficient place to provide food and shelter and work place for many people.

I want to “will” it to a person or a couple that can prove it to me that they will continue the work I started, and make it a hundred times better.

I find this SKIP program, and it all sounds so great, but wait, I need to get PEP “certified” before I can find someone suitable and work with them to get this process going.

At my age, or even if I was 10 years younger, will I be considering this? What exactly do I need to “prove” to someone?

PS: there is a possibility, of course, that not all Otises are advanced in age, and they might consider participating in events and meeting potential peppers in person and so on. I think the number of those kind of Otises compared to the rest of them does not justify the “should” get PEP certified suggestion.

And THIS:
(From Jay)"Some of the things that PEP focuses on, aren't that applicable to my homestead or my ecosystem, so that is also a factor.  One example of that is the bean trellis that has to be 7 ft tall. Now if they'd allow me to make it 6 feet vertically and several feet horizontally from that height, I'd be good with that, but most of my land is too uneven and I have enough fruit trees that force me to woman-handle a ladder - I'd like to pick my beans with my feet planted firmly on the ground!"

Likewise, the hugel requirements, done here, would require heavy equipment I simply don't have & can't afford to rent - especially on that scale, as much as it would be a huge benefit and as much as I'd love to do it, it's just not feasible.

And this:
Time and resources are a really BIG deal. I already have my land, and it and all the livestock, and many other challenges, including my own physical challenges that I face here make many, many of the badges & bits too much, for me. I don't have, for example, the time, energy, or spoons to forage up and down our ridges & ravines for 5lbs of mushrooms (or much of anything else, in those quantities), then clean, preserve, and find a way to store them, all. The bulk quantities of these things are simply prohibitive, especially when there's no one else to help get everything else done that MUST be done, just to get by. I am at a point in my life where I'm looking, out of necessity, to start paring down my work load, not increasing it. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun. I'm sure it would be - but, there are too many necessities that I wouldn't be able to accomplish, if I take up doing things I don't have to do.
I'm glad it's not a requirement, because if it was, I'd probably just have to sell my place, instead of leaving it to someone who I know would keep it going at least as well as I do - and hopefully much better than I'm able.

Until I saw this thread, I didn't even know there was a PEP Certification program.

So I did a search and found this:

When you complete several things, you earn a badge.  Sixteen badges will make you PEP1 certified.  After several years of progress, you can be PEP3 or PEP4 certified.

https://permies.com/wiki/skip-2021

As I stated above, I feel it would be great for an Otis to attend this type of function so the Otis can meet potential participants.

Nikki said, "That's my only reasoning for why they *shouldn't* get certified. But exactly for the reasons that you pointed out, I think it would be really beneficial to participate in PEP as an Otis, particularly with attending events. If I had land that needed a steward, I'd like to interact with the prospective person and observe their work ethic.

I also really like Liv's explanation.

Carla Burke wrote:
(From Jay)"Some of the things that PEP focuses on, aren't that applicable to my homestead or my ecosystem, so that is also a factor.  One example of that is the bean trellis that has to be 7 ft tall. Now if they'd allow me to make it 6 feet vertically and several feet horizontally from that height, I'd be good with that, but most of my land is too uneven and I have enough fruit trees that force me to woman-handle a ladder - I'd like to pick my beans with my feet planted firmly on the ground!"

Likewise, the hugel requirements, done here, would require heavy equipment I simply don't have & can't afford to rent - especially on that scale, as much as it would be a huge benefit and as much as I'd love to do it, it's just not feasible.

This has been a substantial turnoff for me for the whole PEP scheme. It is so grounded in Paul's specific conditions - climate, social, legal, environmental, local species etc... - that I'm largely excluded from completing many of the BBs. It simply doesn't transfer well to UK climate, legal restrictions on land use, species etc...

In some cases I would be forced to do things "wrong" for my own conditions simply to show evidence for a BB.

I do understand Paul's logic - he has created a system for his conditions, and his vision of permaculture. My conditions are not his conditions.

Michael Cox wrote:

This has been a substantial turnoff for me for the whole PEP scheme. It is so grounded in Paul's specific conditions - climate, social, legal, environmental, local species etc... -

You might be interested in PEA - https://permies.com/wiki/126834/PEA-Core-Philosophy-Badges

It's specifically designed to be accessible to any climate including urban dwelling.  

You DO NOT need to do a single BB to be an Otis.  

This thread is merely exploring reasons why an Otis might want to consider doing some of the BBs or playing around with the program.

Michael Cox wrote:This has been a substantial turnoff for me for the whole PEP scheme. It is so grounded in Paul's specific conditions - climate, social, legal, environmental, local species etc... - that I'm largely excluded from completing many of the BBs. It simply doesn't transfer well to UK climate, legal restrictions on land use, species etc...

In some cases I would be forced to do things "wrong" for my own conditions simply to show evidence for a BB.

I do understand Paul's logic - he has created a system for his conditions, and his vision of permaculture. My conditions are not his conditions.

Having working on SKIP a little bit, I completely understand why it has to focus on one condition and vision for one place.  Any program that would be broad enough to apply to the UK, Montana and Guatemala would be so generic that it might not impress Otis.

As is often said "If you don't like it, make your own PEX".  Well, I'm doing that myself now.  It takes forever but I'm working on PEM - Permaculture Experience according to Mike.  

Mike Haasl wrote:You DO NOT need to do a single BB to be an Otis.  

This thread is merely exploring reasons why an Otis might want to consider doing some of the BBs or playing around with the program.

I was just on my way back into this thread, to point this out, as well as to say that the Big Guy doesn't create these all on his own, or expect everyone to be able to do them. My comments were not, in any way, shape, or form, intended to denigrate the PEP program. I think it's a fantastic tool, and a great, tangible means to teach, as well as to see someone's accumulated skill set, to decide whether they might be a good match, for an OTIS. If it comes to it, I'll absolutely use it, to help me decide, if/when the time comes.

My comments were purely in answer to the OP's question of what reasons might an OTIS have for not participating in the PEP program. I apologize to one and all, if I've painted it in a negative light. That was certainly not my intent.

r ranson wrote:

For me a lot of SKIP is about proving we can do a thing.  There are many paths to prove this be it establishing a healthy farm or working through a set programme.  

I can see how some OTIS types could find a desire to complete BBs a distraction from tasks necessary to their homestead. That would be a definite drawback for them.

Anne Miller wrote:Until I saw this thread, I didn't even know there was a PEP Certification program.

This makes me really glad I started it. I personally think PEP/PEA/PEX is one of the coolest things here, and I love sharing my excitement with others.

I find the PEP and PEA BB (Badge Bits) fun to read and see what folks are doing.  I love the pictures.

What is "OTIS"  and "PEP"?

You can learn all about Otis and PEP here: permies.com/skip

I think us Otises have done lots of it except maybe the clothing part and stuff like that (yarning, etc... I sew by hand though I bought a machine but haven't used it yet.) I saw one was to wash dishes by hand? Dang, that's all do....and for who have not best get use to it cuz the WEF globalists are starting to take away ALL appliances. Hope you urban permies have a place to bug out to when TSHTF.