Prevention and treatment for novel coronavirus COVID 19

Okay aside from the fact that the older we get the more likely we are to die period, the folks who are fittest are less likely to die in most instances. It always comes back to being in shape. Getting moderate exercise, getting sun, clean water, fresh air, healthy food, joy in your life. These are things shown to support a healthy human being. Then when you are ill, it is best to rest until fully well. If I feel I am getting sick from an infectious virus, I actually rest before getting fully sick. That in itself is enough to allow my body to heal before an infectious process takes hold. When I don't do that, I  may end up sick. I think too many of us ignore that we are feeling under the weather and just keep plodding through our day. That very first inkling of feeling under the weather is when you want to go home, take a hot bath and sip your tea of choice for cold/flu with some lemon for vitamin C and when relaxed and toasty warm from the bath, hop in bed and stay there until you feel better, which often comes after a long deep sleep. It is in the depths of sleep that our body is best able to regenerate and protect itself.

Sharol Tilgner wrote:Update On Corona Virus 2019-nCoV From WHO - World Health Organization

As of 1/31/2020 the World Health Organization has listed 7736 confirmed cases in China and  a world-wide total of 7818 cases in 19 countries. It is suspected that there are actually 12,167 cases of the novel corona virus at this time. Of the known cases, 1,370 of these cases are considered severe and there are 170 deaths. The number of deaths are less than those first thought to be taking place. It currently appears to be at around 2%.

To give you some perspective, in the 2018-2019 flu season the United States Center for Disease Control estimates 35.5 million people were sick with influenza, 16.5 million people going to a health care provider for their illness, 490,600 hospitalizations, and 34,200 deaths from influenza. As with the current Corona virus, those who are older are the ones most likely to succumb to the flu and die. 75% of the influenza deaths were in those 65 and older.

Thanks for those numbers and comparisons Sharol.  Chris Martenson, over at PeakProsperity.com who has been tracking this closely just released an update as well based on the best available data he has been able to find from Chinese researchers.  I'd highly recommend everyone watch this video about it all:  https://www.peakprosperity.com/new-coronavirus-ro-of-4-1-massive-contagion-risk/

Since I know most people won't watch the video, let me try to give the briefest of cliff notes.  An important measure of a disease such as this is how easily it is transferred from one person to another, generally referred to as the R0 factor.  For the regular seasonal flu that Sharol gave us estimates for the R0 is 1.28.  This means that on average every person who gets it will infect 1.28 people.  The R0 for this new coronavirus was being estimated at the low end at 2.5, meaning each person who gets it is likely to infect another 2.5 people.  The latest data Dr. Martenson is presenting in this video is putting the R0 at 4.1!  I realize those numbers don't sound scary.  That's because we as humans just don't tend to be able to grasp exponential functions.  He translates this out into potential real population numbers just a bit after the 8 minute mark in the video.  With the regular flu having an R0 of 1.28, which again it is estimated resulted in 490,600 hospitalizations and 34,200 deaths in the US last flu season, at the 10th cycle will be infecting 9 new people.  At the 20th cycle that would be up to 109 new infections per cycle.

With the low end estimation of an R0 of 2.5 on this coronavirus at the 10th cycle the math says 3815 new people will be infected.  Extended that to the 20th cycle it would be 36,379,788!  With the latest R0 calculation of 4 the 10th cycle infects 262,144 new people, and at the 20th cycle that goes up to a number exceeding the total human population of the planet by a stupid amount.

This new study also apparently determined that if the time people are traveling around interacting with others and potentially spreading the disease can be reduced to 2-3 days then this can be contained and burn itself out.  This is of course hard to do if infected people really can spread it prior to seeing any symptoms in themselves.  This info also helps explain why China has gone to such drastic measures closing down whole cities.

Odds seem to be pretty good if these R0 calculations are anywhere close to accurate that this won't be contained and you will get it.  Hence the original point of this thread is all the more important.  How can you best treat this disease on your own at home?  I would agree that one of the best things we can be doing right now is to get as healthy as we can, boosting our immune system so hopefully we can be one of those who is able to shrug this off like a minor illness, or perhaps not even detect symptoms because our bodies were able to fight it off so well.  For myself it's motivating me even more to focus on eating a whole food plant based diet.  Your individual dietary beliefs/needs may vary but I'd suggest putting in some extra effort to care for your body as best as you can, however you feel that is best done, for the next few months at least.  If this all blows over and amounts to nothing then the worst outcome is a healthier you!  :)  

If you want to follow the progression of this corona virus this site seems to be kept up to date and displays the progress on a map:
Corona Virus tracker

Thank you all for answering. Now I know its not just me and the media concerned. How can I get my family (I'm 17) on board without sounding more like a doomsday conspiracy theorist type weirdo than I already do to most ( or all) of them?

Huxley Harter wrote:Thank you all for answering. Now I know its not just me and the media concerned. How can I get my family (I'm 17) on board without sounding more like a doomsday conspiracy theorist type weirdo than I already do to most ( or all) of them?

No offense but I try constantly to warn my friends and family but I feel it is in vain due to a sense of normalcy bias. My own roommate refused my offers of extra air purifiers and Immune boosting supplements  because he thinks he cannot get sick because he eats lots of hot peppers. I have gone the extra step of isolating myself from him by moving him up to my dad's vacation home here in NC until this blows over. He refuses to listen because it's negative news....I am saddened by all the people who just shrug me off like I'm crazy. I hope and pray I am wrong in all of my researching....But I'd rather err on the side of caution.

Huxley Harter wrote:Thank you all for answering. Now I know its not just me and the media concerned. How can I get my family (I'm 17) on board without sounding more like a doomsday conspiracy theorist type weirdo than I already do to most ( or all) of them?

I'm seeing the new virus as a great excuse to boost my immune system and to remember to practice good hygiene - like washing my hands, not touching my face, not using the cart the coughing lady just put back in the supermarket.  I know they are all things I should be doing anyway, but I forget.  This is the season for the flu and other nasty stuff.  Even living in a part of the world with a  good history of pandemic containment, it's still good to be careful.  

So what does the "Total Recovered" number in the chart mean?  Is that the number that survived and are over it?  So (per Greg's screenshot), 11,000 people currently have it, 259 died from it and 252 survived it?

Or is it that of 11,000 cases, some portion of which were hospitalized for it (presumably elderly or immune-compromised) and of that subset, half lived and half died?

Sorry if this was covered earlier in the thread...

Mike Haasl wrote:So what does the "Total Recovered" number in the chart mean?  Is that the number that survived and are over it?  So (per Greg's screenshot), 11,000 people currently have it, 259 died from it and 252 survived it?

Or is it that of 11,000 cases, some portion of which were hospitalized for it (presumably elderly or immune-compromised) and of that subset, half lived and half died?

Sorry if this was covered earlier in the thread...

The total recovered number would be people who had been confirmed to have it (and thus part of the 11,000) and have gotten over the disease.  Presumably they would have been among the earlier ones to get it as most of those represented in the 11,000 figure are still dealing with the disease.  At this point it is hard to really determine just how deadly it is.  My suspicion, perhaps really just my hope, is that most people who have died from it get counted, but that a huge number beyond those in the 11,000 figure have been infected but not counted because they never had confirmation testing, or had such a mild case they never needed to seek medical help, or China has just been suppressing the real numbers.  If this was the case then the lethality of the virus would look amplified in the numbers.  In the video I posted to above the latest study suggested around 6% who contract it die, but that's a really really fuzzy number right now.

I'm in a population likely to be strongly hit by any flu, so I've been closely following the John Hopkins numbers - this is a really interesting case of exponential population growth. From my really crude calculations, based on the (as mentioned by many people, flawed in many ways) data, the infected population in China is doubling every 3-3.5 days. The numbers globally are too small to really count yet, but seems to be doubling every 2-5 days. Just watching the Canadian reports, the John Hopkins map seems to lag by about 1 day or so reporting confirmed Canadian cases, so I suspect there is significant delay elsewhere.

With 11,200 currently infected in China, if it were to maintain this trend, then in 30 days (10 doubling periods), there would be approximately 11 million people infected!!!  (11200*2^10) I truly cannot see how we will be able to keep up with testing kits for this virus. I recall in the days of swine flu, doctors stopped bothering ordering tests - people were just assumed to have the virus. I can imagine that China may rapidly be approaching that point, and am curious how "it's probably 2019-nCorona, but we don't have the resources to test it" is being reported in their data. I also suspect mildly -ill Chinese people (and potentially infected people elsewhere in the world) are probably trying to hide their symptoms to avoid the inconvenience of quarantine.

I also comment that I doubt some other regions of the world are able to be testing their population. I would suspect there is infection there that is not being controlled.

The reported cases of asymptomatic individuals being able to transmit the virus, and a recent case of the student in Canada who was tested, then later retested and found to carry the virus, are concerning to me. There was also a case study in the US following disease progression, and severe symptoms didn't hit for more than a week. That being said, the lack of deaths outside of china (couple hundred infected, no deaths), is reassuring.

I have several colleagues travelling in Asia right now (thankfully, not China), and I'm quite concerned for them. Unfortunately, a couple of them are the type that will probably show up at work even IF they are sick.

Personally, I've gone out and done a big grocery shop, and will probably go out this weekend and pick up a few more essential supplies. After this weekend, I'll probably try to limit time in public where possible until we have a better understanding of this new flu.

Moderator hat

We're approaching cider press territory here.  Let's keep this thread for herbs,immune boosting and other ways we can stay healthy.

You are encouraged to start a thread about the epidemiology and political aspects of the Nova coronavirua in the cider press (and I hope you do because it's a great topic).

r ranson wrote:Moderator hat

We're approaching cider press territory here.  Let's keep this thread for herbs,immune boosting and other ways we can stay healthy.

You are encouraged to start a thread about the epidemiology and political aspects of the Nova coronavirua in the cider press (and I hope you do because it's a great topic).

Cider Press?

Cider Press is our forum category for controversial subjects, anything from religion to politics to things some might call conspiricy theories to toxic pollution and climate change. It's a place for the discussions you wouldn't have over Christmas dinner, discussions that might get people riled up.

Basically, Cider Press forums (https://permies.com/c/15) are the places where we talk about problems rather than solutions.

In other news, the first case of Coronavirus in the US is being successfully treated. https://komonews.com/news/local/doctors-say-snohomish-county-mans-coronavirus-treatment-has-been-successful

Dr. Jay Cook with Providence Medical Center says the paper is pretty technical, but the message for the public is that doctors are successfully treating the first confirmed case of coronavirus in the United States.

... The paper details how on day four after being diagnosed, the man showed high levels of the virus despite mild symptoms. By days 11 and 12, he showed a trend of decreasing virus levels.

As of Thursday, the man remains in satisfactory condition at Providence Medical Center.

And, here's the medical paper on the treatment used at Providence Regional Health Center in Washington state to treat him: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2001191. He developed pnemonia, and now all he has is a dry cough and runny nose:

On hospital day 8 (illness day 12), the patient’s clinical condition improved. Supplemental oxygen was discontinued, and his oxygen saturation values improved to 94 to 96% while he was breathing ambient air. The previous bilateral lower-lobe rales were no longer present. His appetite improved, and he was asymptomatic aside from intermittent dry cough and rhinorrhea. As of January 30, 2020, the patient remains hospitalized. He is afebrile, and all symptoms have resolved with the exception of his cough, which is decreasing in severity.

Huxley Harter wrote:Thank you all for answering. Now I know its not just me and the media concerned. How can I get my family (I'm 17) on board without sounding more like a doomsday conspiracy theorist type weirdo than I already do to most ( or all) of them?

Hi  Huxley,

There are so many people that will give you advice, you will have to listen to your heart and take on board what feels right for you.

There is an old saying in France that loosely translated means that there is no deafer person than the one who does not want to hear.  There is also the old saying, you know, that: "You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink".  Ah, well, maybe you can put some salt in its food!

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that you will not convince anyone of anything by harping on about it.  I could give you a all set of reasoning on this topic but this is neither the place nor the time

If you have ever been in an airplane journey, there is a little safety scenario taking place before take off.  No one much pays attention to it these days, but one of the things mentioned is that in case of emergency, should the oxygen masks drop down, put yours on first before helping anyone else (including your child).  The reason is that you won't be much help to anyone if you pass out.

My thoughts, for what it's worth, are that you are probably hitting your head on a brick wall trying to convince your family, so I would rather do what you are doing: gather information, get healthy and strong, stoke up on remedies and should you be so very unfortunate that a member of your family falls prey to this nasty virus, you will be ready and able to help.

I wish you the very best.

The staff have gone through the posts in this thread with a fine tooth comb and removed several posts for being off topic or poltiical.  

Please remember to keep this thread on topic and talk about prevention and cure that fit with permaculture values.  

Someone just told me about fire cider.

Has anyone tried this?

r ranson wrote:Someone just told me about fire cider.  Has anyone tried this?

There's a badge bit in PEP for fire cider and one of the links has a traditional recipe for it:
https://health.bastyr.edu/recipes/traditional-fire-cider

It has most of the things one would expect like garlic, ginger, and turmeric, but I have never personally made it or tried it.

I've tried fire cider and made it.  I'm not sure it works (haven't have enough colds where I could see a clear difference) but it sure is potent seeming.  Last time I had a cold coming on but didn't have any cider handy.  So I made some and tried it before it had a chance to age.  If you think normal fire cider clears out your sinuses, try fresh (for better or worse)!  

Some good information within on the compounds within natural sources bearing antiviral activity:   (open source document)

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2019.01207/full

Some of it is pretty technical but if you scroll through the entire paper there may be things of use.

Here is another thing that might help. Until more details are understood I think the old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is very good advice. Basic sanitation, eating healthy food, & avoiding exposure, etc.

elderberry syrup recipe

One of the theories out there (and some research) about viruses is the ones that affect people are adapted to our bodies. They require a slightly acid pH to grow and thrive, and make you ill. So what a lot of people do for colds and the flu, shingles and herpes, is likely to work for coronavirus also. Baking soda puts your body temporarily into an alkaline state, which probably kills off the viruses currently active in you.  Being out and about all day gets you freshly exposed to everything. Taking it before bed kills them off, and lets your body clean up all the dead viruses overnight as you sleep.

About 1 tsp is the dose for a 150 pound adult. (Overdose is over 4 teaspoons a day, sustained for several days, so exact dose is not required.) Scale it down for kids, or up for heavier people. One teaspoon of baking soda, in water, taken before bed.

Will it be enough? I don't know. But what I DO know is it's easy and cheap enough to do that you might be able to talk your loved ones into actually doing it. There are a lot of things I wish I could get them to do, but they are actually doing the baking soda, whereas Vit C, Vit D, magnesium etc are not happening.  

Incidentally, a lot of people think one of the reasons people get colds and flu easier in the winter is the pH shift that most people see when they quit eating as much fresh produce as the weather shifts. Fresh produce keeps your body more alkaline, eating grains, sugars, etc makes your body more acidic. So eating really well, high nutrient dense, as much fresh as you can is the best. But baking soda is cheap, easy and nontoxic, and may help prevent viral illnesses of all types.

Yes I used to make it all the time and prefer it with a lot of kick from ghost peppers or habaneros. Some folks just make it with jalapenos and I don't think it's as effective mild.  I have not made it in a couple of years and do think I get a few more colds each season I have not made it. It is great for sinus and respiratory issues. Anyway, fire cider taste great in tomato juice to help take the edge off of the bitter and spicy roots. Or in a hot tomato soup or bone broth to give it some flavor, but it really clears the sinus's if you just drink it as a shot.

An ND explained to me that elderberry works best as a preventative before symptoms are felt, though the way elderberry works can help symptoms dissipate more quickly than if not used at all.  Also that elderberry creates a teflon like film around healthy cells that prevents virus cells from poking through to adhere.  We had been discussing dosage for a child versus an adult.  The point made was to have at least a small amount present in the body, and that a dosage for a child can work the same as for an adult.  Also that elderberry tea and other elderberry condiments can be as effective as elderberry extract if elderberry something is consumed daily.

There is an NIH abstract, which I cannot find just now, that describes how viruses spread easily because their cells are covered in spikes that adhere to healthy cells.  There are similar explanations, though I liked that particular one because it was nearly in lay terms without a ton of jargon to wade through.  If I find it, I'll post it.  Or maybe someone else has a good link that describes, more in depth, how virus cells and elderberry interact.

https://www.pharmacytimes.com/contributor/cate-sibley-pharmd/2017/10/elderberries-a-potent-cold-and-flu-remedy

So how are elderberries thought to work as an antiviral? There are probably many mechanisms of action, but a prime one is that elderberries contain hemagglutinin protein. This protein has been shown to stop a virus’ capability to replicate by inhibiting its ability to penetrate the cell wall, thereby preventing the virus from causing infection if taken before exposed. If elderberries are taken after infection, that keeps the virus from spreading, which reduces the duration of influenza symptoms.

More discussion here:  https://healthifybody.com/elderberry-benefits.html

I make fire cider every year, and we use it for things like marinades and salad dressings. If we actually do get sick, we bump it up, by diluting a shot in a glass of water and drinking it up to 3x/day. Taken that way, it can take some getting used to, lol.

Other things we do:
1 - We have an air cleaner going 24/7/365. I'm prone to airborn allergies like animal dander, hay dust, molds, etc, so it must go constantly, since we have all the above, in our home.
2 - I make (and keep in the freezer) a steady supply of elderberry syrup that we take as soon as we've been exposed &/or from the beginning to the end of flu-season
3 - In the event we run out of elderberry syrup, I always keep dried elderberries, ginger, molasses, cloves, and cinnamon on hand, to make more - or to make a tea
4 - I have asthma, so every night, I drink a strong mullein tea (jftr, all my teas are loose-leaf, mostly from my own yard or mountainroseherbs.com), for lung support
5 - Additional lung support can come from licorice, lobelia, or mallow (any part of the plant, arial or root), and several others (here's a quick link for more info on that: https://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/9-best-herbs-lung-cleansing-respiratory-support/ )
6 - Very frequent hand washing
7 - We try HARD not to touch anything the rest of the world is likely to touch, like public hand rails, doorknobs/latches/etc, sinks, toilet handles, shopping carts, etc, without gloves, a towel, or some other barrier
8 - Avoidance of anyone we know is sick, or has been exposed to anyone who is sick
9 - Our own coughs and sneezes are always directed into our elbows, collars, a washcloth, a thickly folded handkerchief (one layer hardly holds anything, from a sneeze!)
10 - get good rest - for us, that includes proper maintenance of our cpap* machines, including the filters on them.
11 - eat well, including minding our gut flora, avoiding the things we know are troublesome for our personal health
12 - spend at least a little time outside, every day, to get sun (vitD), grounding, the health and soul feeding from connection with our livestock, exercise, and fresh air
13 - keep our indoor areas as clean as we can manage, without using bleach, 'antibacterial' or 'antimicrobial' products,  because those all kill the good microbes, too
14 - Keep and use a homemade raw acv-based 4- thieves blend cleaning product, instead of the bleach, etc, whenever we feel 'at risk' - otherwise, we just use white vinegar based cleaning products
15 - I will occasionally go through the house, waving a smoldering bundle of white sage - especially if anyone has been in the house, who has been sick, or came down with something they didn't know they were carrying, after leaving. This practice has been used in many cultures, around the world, resulting in testing that has proven it cleans the air by more than 90% of airborne toxins, bacteria and viruses, even keeping the air clean, for weeks afterward.

*A "CPAP" machine assists night-time breathing, for those who, for one reason or another, have trouble breathing properly, in their sleep. The damage done by the lack of oxygen can range from increased risk of heart attack, stroke, simply not ever breathing again, renal failure (this is the one that ultimately killed my brother), aggravated fibromyalgia, or other chronic health or immune disorders, and more.

One year we got sick all of a sudden before I'd had a chance to make real fire cider,  I got powdered chili, turmeric, and ginger and mixed these in with raw cider vinegar to use right away. This is not as affective as real fire cider, but better than nothing at all, and doesn't leave you tasting garlic all the time.

The fire cider ingredients could also be used as a tea when there isn't time to infuse it in vinegar.

I'm going out to get ingredients for fire cider in a couple of days. I might make a version with garlic and one without.

Also making my elderberry oxymel soon: https://thenourishinghearthfire.com/2018/05/16/spiced-elderberry-oxymel-a-herbal-cold-and-flu-medicine/

I've heard that echinacea is good to take when you feel like you're getting sick. A herbal book I have includes this with elderberry in a syrup.

Other precautions we're taking are: being more conscious about washing hands, staying away from crowds and touristy places, not taking children into shops with us as they have less control over touching random stuff and putting their hands on their faces, keeping distance from people, and boosting the immune system.

I'm old enough that coughing into your elbow wasn't a thing when I learned my manners.  If I cup my mouth and cough into my hand, I can see how the majority of the liquid is caught on my hand (and then wiped on my pants).  If I'm really good and raise up my t-shirt collar and cough into my shirt it could be even better.  If I cough in my elbow it seems to fly everywhere.  Maybe it's because my arms are long and I can't reach my elbow.

So is it worse to shoot the juicy stuff over and under my elbow into the vicinity but keep my hands pristine?  Or better to cough in my hand and try not to spread it by touch?  Or do I need to go back to first grade for some more learning...

I agree with a lot of what's been said thus far in this discussion.  The Wuhan Coronavirus is a novel form of the same kind of virus that causes the common cold.  We don't know how dangerous it will be to people in well-equipped hospitals.  (Not to diss China, but the province where most of the deaths have occurred is pretty rural and I'm guessing their hospitals are not as well equipped as those in the United States, Canada and Europe.  So we still need to see what happens to patients in "the West" who get sick with this virus.  

All of the things that people do to fight common viruses are likely to help with this new uncommon virus.  The most important thing you can do, on February 1st, 2020, is get a flu vaccine if you haven't gotten one this season.  Thus far 10,000 people have died from influenza (2019/2020) in the United States, 68 of them children.  Ordinary flu is a far more relevant risk for almost all of us. Now, I used to be sort of skeptical about the flu vaccine from looking at the statistics of effectiveness.  That was when I worked as a hospitalist, and didn't actually see that many kids with influenza.

Now that I'm in a busy pediatric outpatient clinic, I can appreciate a clear pattern.  Yes, there are kids who got the flu vaccine and still got influenza.  However, they look very different from the kids who didn't get a flu vaccine and picked up influenza.  The no-vaccine kids are MISERABLE, with impressively high (106.7F for one in January, many with 105F) fevers and are usually curled up in a ball in mom's lap or on the exam table if they're too big for her lap.  The post-flu shot kids are sick, but the temp might just be 99F and they tell me their back hurts. They just don't look as bad.  So even though it's technically a "fail," in the statistics, their quality of life is greatly improved by having had the flu vaccine.

Which moves me to make a note about fever.  Fever is one of the most misunderstood symptoms.  Countless parents (and grandparents) believe that it is their DUTY to get rid of fever in their offspring whenever it occurs.  There are vague worries about fever and the brain.  However, fever will not damage the brain until it gets SUPER high, like 108F (>42C) and I've never seen or heard of that happening.

My mom insists that my fever went to 106.7F (41.5C) when I was sick with chickenpox in 6th grade.  I don't recall exactly, I just remember feeling like I was FREEZING TO DEATH and my mom took all my clothes off and popped me into a bathtub of cool water!!  I did not appreciate this.  Do not do this to your kids.  Anyway, I'm pretty sure my brain didn't melt - I still made it to and through med school.

We've been having fevers, as a species, for thousands of years.  We've only had tylenol for around 50.  We can survive a fever better than a virus can, and that's the point.  Fevers help weaken/kill viruses.  There are many home remedies that involve sort of creating a fever - hot baths, sauna, maybe even fire cider.  So, you use the tylenol or motrin to help yourself or your kid feel better so you can rest or even better get more sleep.  Not because you have to remove the fever.

The key is the usual: increased sleep, increased fluids.  Drink so much water (or other unsweetened beverages) that when you pee, it's not yellow.  Have some soup.  Chicken soup with garlic and onion has been shown to help with viral illnesses.  

For a bad tasting but effective cough syrup, put a couple of drops of essential oil of white thyme into an ounce of honey (take it 1/4 to 1/2 tspn at a time).  Be careful with the quantity - too much, and it makes your tongue numb.  For a good tasting honey based syrup, I recommend Maty's Organic cough syrup, which is sold at many different stores in the United States.  It's delicious and it does a nice job of coating your throat and calming down a cough.

Mike Haasl wrote:I'm old enough that coughing into your elbow wasn't a thing when I learned my manners.  If I cup my mouth and cough into my hand, I can see how the majority of the liquid is caught on my hand (and then wiped on my pants).  If I'm really good and raise up my t-shirt collar and cough into my shirt it could be even better.  If I cough in my elbow it seems to fly everywhere.  Maybe it's because my arms are long and I can't reach my elbow.

So is it worse to shoot the juicy stuff over and under my elbow into the vicinity but keep my hands pristine?  Or better to cough in my hand and try not to spread it by touch?  Or do I need to go back to first grade for some more learning...

Don't shoot juicy stuff anywhere.  Turn your head and cough into clothing.  Cough into your upper arm, if that's what works for you.  If you raise your t-shirt collar you're still likely to end up with germs on your hand, as one layer of t-shirt material is not going to catch all the liquid, and the germs are in the liquid.

The reason you cough into your elbow is that nobody opens a door with their elbow.  If you cough into your hand, you get germs all over your hands, and some germs can travel that way.  

Huxley Harter wrote:Thank you all for answering. Now I know its not just me and the media concerned. How can I get my family (I'm 17) on board without sounding more like a doomsday conspiracy theorist type weirdo than I already do to most ( or all) of them?

This is probably worth creating a new thread about.

I think it helps to remain calm and to remind them that anything could happen, and it's better to have some preparations than none at all. Weather events and disasters happen that can leave shops cut off from supply chains, financial crisis and uncertainty can happen, all kinds of things can prevent people from getting to shops, or can make people unable to go about their usual approach to buying food.

Things you can do personally would be guerilla gardening, identifying existing wild food sources, learning skills, going through scenarios in your mind and figuring out ways to get clean water and cook food without electricity/gas. If you go through the PEP threads, there's heaps of useful stuff to learn there.

There's a lot that can be done on a personal scale and maybe if your family see that you have calmly made preparations, they might be more interested in preparing.

Julia Winter wrote:

Fever is one of the most misunderstood symptoms.  Countless parents (and grandparents) believe that it is their DUTY to get rid of fever in their offspring whenever it occurs.

We've been having fevers, as a species, for thousands of years.  We've only had tylenol for around 50.  We can survive a fever better than a virus can, and that's the point.  Fevers help weaken/kill viruses.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Julia. I have tried to explain to sooo.... many people that a fever is your friend and that taking something to "reduce" it can be counter-productive. It is really nice to have someone agree with me. Yes, I would sometimes treat my kids at bedtime if I thought it would mean that we would both get more sleep, because I do think sleep is an important "treatment" also, but only if the fever was higher than at least 101 F.

I like to make a fever if I'm just on the edge of getting ill.  I don't know if this is healthy, but it often kicks the illness before it gets hold.  It's great right on that edge with the swollen lymph glands but before the sinuses begin to run.

I have a hot bath just before bed, then wrap myself up in extra blankets so I can sweat.  During my sleep, I usually toss some of the blankets on the floor, but sometimes I don't.  In the morning, I have a shower and it usually gets rid of the malaise.

Mike Haasl wrote:I'm old enough that coughing into your elbow wasn't a thing when I learned my manners.  If I cup my mouth and cough into my hand, I can see how the majority of the liquid is caught on my hand (and then wiped on my pants).  If I'm really good and raise up my t-shirt collar and cough into my shirt it could be even better.  If I cough in my elbow it seems to fly everywhere.  Maybe it's because my arms are long and I can't reach my elbow.

So is it worse to shoot the juicy stuff over and under my elbow into the vicinity but keep my hands pristine?  Or better to cough in my hand and try not to spread it by touch?  Or do I need to go back to first grade for some more learning...

I'm only 5'4", and generally, my sleeves catch it. If I'm not wearing sleeves, that's when it goes into my collar. John and I were both in (separate) pro kitchens, so yes, we always had sleeves, and keeping our hands pristine was vital. If you sneeze or cough into your hands, without a cloth of some sort, to catch and filter it, much more slips through and around your fingers than you'd imagine, and necessitates immediate hand washing. It's still far better than not covering your mouth and nose at all, though!

I tried into my upper arm and it's borderline.  If I bend both elbows and cross my arms and crane my neck down and forward it seems like it would be effective to cough into that cranny.  I think we have a plan!  Thanks team

Hi all,

There was some mention earlier about CPAP machines, but no explanation of what they were or how they work.  I thought I would chime in.

A CPAP machine stands for Continuous Positive Air Pressure.  I used one for a while as I had sleep apnea, a condition where the throat structure partially collapses during sleep leading to loud snoring and reduced oxygen intake.

I am a chronic, severe insomniac and we tried to use this to improve my sleep.  It is not easy.  The machine itself is about the size of a dictionary and has a hose that attaches to a nose and mouth cover.  That mask is held in place by an elaborate head strap that firmly holds the mask in place.

The first time one tries this, it is unnerving to say the least.  The first time I inhaled, the CPAP surged air into my lungs, nasal and throat passages, keeping the airway open.  In fact it does so with such gusto that it is a little hard to exhale back out, oddly inducing a choking like feeling.  Once you do exhale, the pressure immediately backs off and your lungs deflate until you take another breath when your lungs get forcibly opened again.  It takes some getting used to and not everyone can tolerate it.

Mine came with a little chip that recorded its use.  I had to report this to my insurance showing that I used it for 2 months or else insurance would not pay for it.  When I started I had high hopes that this machine would cure my insomnia.  It only made it worse,

Using this thing requires conscious breath control—something hard to do when you are asleep and unconscious!  Eventually I got minimally accustomed to it so that I could breath without feeling like I was choking.  But it did absolutely nothing for my insomnia.  I would lay awake for endless hours trying to ignore this mask forcibly attached to my face.  I felt like I had been attacked by the face-hugger from the Alien series, or like I was wrestling with an octopus latched on to my face—definitely not a sensation that relaxes one into a state of restful unconsciousness!  After about a week I started calling it my Darth Vader mask for the sound it makes as it forcibly makes me inhale and exhale.  I stuck it out for a little over 2 months, clinging to the hope that I would get used to it and my insomnia would come under control.

Finally I could take it no more.  One night while desperately trying to get to sleep and being stimulated back into a sort of vague consciousness I realized I simply was not going to sleep that night with that damned mask on my face, something that happened quite often while trying to get accustomed to the CPAP.  I ripped the mask from my face and threw it on the ground in contemptuous disgust.  I never wore it again and to this day I just don’t know who can tolerate such a device, much less sleep restfully.

Anyhow, that is my description of and experience with a CPAP machine.  May you never need one,

Eric

Eric Hanson wrote:Hi all,

There was some mention earlier about CPAP machines, but no explanation of what they were or how they work.  I thought I would chime in.

A CPAP machine stands for Continuous Positive Air Pressure.  I used one for a while as I had sleep apnea, a condition where the throat structure partially collapses during sleep leading to loud snoring and reduced oxygen intake.

I am a chronic, severe insomniac and we tried to use this to improve my sleep.  It is not easy.  The machine itself is about the size of a dictionary and has a hose that attaches to a nose and mouth cover.  That mask is held in place by an elaborate head strap that firmly holds the mask in place.

The first time one tries this, it is unnerving to say the least.  The first time I inhaled, the CPAP surged air into my lungs, nasal and throat passages, keeping the airway open.  In fact it does so with such gusto that it is a little hard to exhale back out, oddly inducing a choking like feeling.  Once you do exhale, the pressure immediately backs off and your lungs deflate until you take another breath when your lungs get forcibly opened again.  It takes some getting used to and not everyone can tolerate it.

Mine came with a little chip that recorded its use.  I had to report this to my insurance showing that I used it for 2 months or else insurance would not pay for it.  When I started I had high hopes that this machine would cure my insomnia.  It only made it worse,

Using this thing requires conscious breath control—something hard to do when you are asleep and unconscious!  Eventually I got minimally accustomed to it so that I could breath without feeling like I was choking.  But it did absolutely nothing for my insomnia.  I would lay awake for endless hours trying to ignore this mask forcibly attached to my face.  I felt like I had been attacked by the face-hugger from the Alien series, or like I was wrestling with an octopus latched on to my face—definitely not a sensation that relaxes one into a state of restful unconsciousness!  After about a week I started calling it my Darth Vader mask for the sound it makes as it forcibly makes me inhale and exhale.  I stuck it out for a little over 2 months, clinging to the hope that I would get used to it and my insomnia would come under control.

Finally I could take it no more.  One night while desperately trying to get to sleep and being stimulated back into a sort of vague consciousness I realized I simply was not going to sleep that night with that damned mask on my face, something that happened quite often while trying to get accustomed to the CPAP.  I ripped the mask from my face and threw it on the ground in contemptuous disgust.  I never wore it again and to this day I just don’t know who can tolerate such a device, much less sleep restfully.

Anyhow, that is my description of and experience with a CPAP machine.  May you never need one,

Eric

Eric, how long ago was this? I ask, because a LOT of advances have been made in this tech. I've been using mine for 5yrs, and it now works more like a in-app (one that doesn't fight you, when you exhale), is much smaller than the old ones, and is very quiet. My 'mask' is tiny, similar to an oxygen hose, but big enough to cover the nasal openings, and made of soft silicone, so not uncomfortable, and my sleep is GREATLY improved. I actually wake up feeling rested and refreshed, now. I still hope to someday eliminate my need of it - but, I'm very glad to have it, as it's made a HUGE difference in improving my overall health.