Has anyone ever built a living road?

Corduroy road made of Alders which here in the wet Pacific North West will keep growing months after being cut even suspended off the ground. Got me thinking would it be possible to make a living trail or road out of these alders. Lashing them together in the same fashion but maybe sealing the ends to encourage root growth out the bottom.
Would require constant pruning once established but got me thinking… if all the little shoots got big in a long row like that… wouldn’t it make a bunch of nice alder for replantings elsewhere or making more road. Stole this picture from google some Michigan project. Would this be feasible? The runoff then could be mitigated more as a slow irrigation. Living wood doesn’t rot as fast in my experience and if the road or trail wasn’t for log trucks or anything bigger than maybe a quad or horse could this work with a light top dressing?

HAS ANYONE TRIED? Is this idea just too bonkers to work or could a living log road be a thing. Like out at Lake Ozette in WA there’s a boardwalk made of dead trees through a swamp… could those be fresh cut green trees encouraged to grow longer???

Cool idea, I hadn't even thought of this. What if the logs could be planed on the upper side so the road is flat? Is it possibly they'd regrow their bark to cover the planed surface and then you'd have a flat, durable road?

It is a bit pie-in-the-sky, but I like it. Maybe it could be done even more feasibly with genetically engineered plants that are very durable and grow sideways...? Possibly other features could be useful for roads too, like if at the ends they grew vertically and produced leaves at that point so your road has a beautiful built-in guardrail that takes co2 out of the air.  

  Not what I expected, I have wanted to grass my driveway (800' 20%) for years.  Maintenance would be mowing it once a month.  
  The Alaska highway, 2000miles, through Canada was originally built as corduroy road.  It will certainly work to stabilize your road.   I assume you have a local source of trees.  Free local road top sound great. If they live and grow I would count that as a plus.  Just make sure you drive / mow often, because mother nature will reclaim that fast if you don't keep it knocked down.  
  On second thought that maybe a bad thing. 3 years in you may have a near solid impenetrable young forest and not a road.  
  Do have time? A 20' test section for 2 summers would teach you a lot. Can you lay the logs alternating and let only the tips grow?  12' logs with the middle 10' kept mowed, the center may stop sprouting?  
  What about outside rails, tips sit on the rail on both sides. Log   bases sit on the dirt, encuraging roots at the bases and growth at the tips?  Tom.

You are going to potentially fall into a lose-lose situation.

A. You don't drive on it enough and you have to trim consistently to prevent yourself from building a wall.

B. You compact the soil underneath by driving on top of the trees and kill them due to compaction.

There is more than likely a Goldilocks scenario where this could work but I would personally find it tedious to keep up on.

Timothy Norton wrote:You are going to potentially fall into a lose-lose situation.

A. You don't drive on it enough and you have to trim consistently to prevent yourself from building a wall.

B. You compact the soil underneath by driving on top of the trees and kill them due to compaction.

There is more than likely a Goldilocks scenario where this could work but I would personally find it tedious to keep up on.

I found the living road idea exciting initially so I'll respond: those are good points. Maybe literally making the road out of felled timber isn't the most logical way to go about it. Maybe first we might ask "what is the goal of a living road?"

I'd think low maintenance, infinite durability (i.e. the lifespan of the road is the same as the lifespan of the super-organism it is composed of), and ecological friendliness are the three biggest considerations. What other solutions might satisfy these three requirements?

Say you had a swampy area and Willows and alder which love growing any which way laid in a 20’ wide section. The edge 3’ is allowed to grow to keep the root base alive. 2000 lb max carry capacity and I’m thinking would need a vapor barrier and gravel on top to discourage rot in the center where you drive your atv or quad with no more than say firewood quad trailer behind. Talking backwoods engineering here. So I should draw what I’m
Thinking because it’s difficult to describe to justice in words but here goes. The section which is the path is roughly 14’ wide with the edges growing together over the top to make almost like a covered bridge effect but with foliage. If someone has some land and this project treats your fancy I’ll totally come help. Looking for some alders or willows on a wet spot of your property you’d like access with a atv or horse or on foot. Cut the trees to form a maybe 20 or 30’ long living corduroy bridge. The edge 3’ being selectively pruned to add more struts and tress elements. Maples and some apple and pears would be cool to living trellis on this idea. This is way out there so thank anyone for even contributing to the crazy thought of a living road / covered tree bridge 14’ wide but covered the whole way. If the site was planned correctly I see no reason light loads couldn’t be taken Accross a 12” thick layer of mulch which the road itself will constantly replenish. And yes mowing the ones in the walkway or taking them as cuttings for the arbor society or big projects.
-Thanks everyone d.dycer

Thomas Michael wrote:   Not what I expected, I have wanted to grass my driveway (800' 20%) for years.  Maintenance would be mowing it once a month.  
  The Alaska highway, 2000miles, through Canada was originally built as corduroy road.  It will certainly work to stabilize your road.   I assume you have a local source of trees.  Free local road top sound great. If they live and grow I would count that as a plus.  Just make sure you drive / mow often, because mother nature will reclaim that fast if you don't keep it knocked down.  
  On second thought that maybe a bad thing. 3 years in you may have a near solid impenetrable young forest and not a road.  
  Do have time? A 20' test section for 2 summers would teach you a lot. Can you lay the logs alternating and let only the tips grow?  12' logs with the middle 10' kept mowed, the center may stop sprouting?  
  What about outside rails, tips sit on the rail on both sides. Log   bases sit on the dirt, encuraging roots at the bases and growth at the tips?  Tom.

Thank you Tom!
I’m attaching a picture to kinda give a feel for what I’m saying in 20 years it would look like this. The center portion being covered year after year with more mulch compacting into a super fungal network of roots and spongy materials which can still hold up
To the strain of like I said less than 2000 lbs this fairy corduroy bridge idea would need to be in a fairly wet area that could accommodate basically a living forest road. Eventually the center where people walk may degrade but the edges that were allowed to grow in my theory would suck moisture and add a barrier so your top doesn’t sluff off. This would be a high maintenance item UNLESS some animal can help. Who would be a good suit not sure taking ideas.
D.dycer I do want to try this I don’t have the idea microclimate at present.

This is what the lake Ozette boardwalk looks like, if you haven’t been I highly recommend super cool very long boardwalk. So instead of dead flat slickeryering n’ snot when it’s wet… A nice layer of flat organic material over a corduroy rd which has been designed more like a bridge than a boardwalk because it’s alive in both sides makes for easy cuttings for transplants! Trees = moneys!

Ned Harr wrote:Cool idea, I hadn't even thought of this. What if the logs could be planed on the upper side so the road is flat? Is it possibly they'd regrow their bark to cover the planed surface and then you'd have a flat, durable road?

It is a bit pie-in-the-sky, but I like it. Maybe it could be done even more feasibly with genetically engineered plants that are very durable and grow sideways...? Possibly other features could be useful for roads too, like if at the ends they grew vertically and produced leaves at that point so your road has a beautiful built-in guardrail that takes co2 out of the air.  

Ned I love Pie in the sky ideas and this would be a very site specific thing and would make for a really cool path through a swamp to a beautiful pond with a meadow for weddings or camping.  The edges would be like guard walls it would be thick and dence but would create lots of living wood for making living fences another this I’m passionate about.
So even more pie in the sky and hear me out this is eco insanity. Let the side 3’ grow into a mat over the top inter winded to be like a topside covered bridge. This is sounding more and more fairytale. Double decker corduroy fairy bridge.

Timothy Norton wrote:You are going to potentially fall into a lose-lose situation.

A. You don't drive on it enough and you have to trim consistently to prevent yourself from building a wall.

B. You compact the soil underneath by driving on top of the trees and kill them due to compaction.

There is more than likely a Goldilocks scenario where this could work but I would personally find it tedious to keep up on.

If the 14’ on the inside had hog wire protecting from the sides and hogs and other leaf eaters were allowed to graze the edges and center to do your maintenance for you would this seem more feasible? Even if the center 14’ died and rotted away in my theory wouldn’t the 3’ on each side allowed to grow just nurse log the center where it’s getting compacted anyways?
The tree trimmings would be used on other projects and create a nice living wood factory…. I mean if every thing was perrrrfect lol

The idea in photos. The trees being maple, alder, willow, hazelnut,  hickory and  some orchard trees

You might have the option of laying a hedge with the trunks of your trees all the way down on the ground, across your road. But still attached to their roots. The rule for laying a hedge is to lay the wood uphill from the roots so that the sap still flows upward to the top of the tree. Roads need a side slope for drainage, so you could plant your trees on the lower side of the road, lay them up and across it. Then the runoff will water your trees.

Western redcedar is pretty happy to spread it's roots and send up shoots from them, especially when planted in a wet area. I wonder if we could discover what substance redcedars really like, and then deposit a bunch of it in the middle of a road to encourage roots to grow into the road. Redcedar candy.

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:You might have the option of laying a hedge with the trunks of your trees all the way down on the ground, across your road. But still attached to their roots. The rule for laying a hedge is to lay the wood uphill from the roots so that the sap still flows upward to the top of the tree. Roads need a side slope for drainage, so you could plant your trees on the lower side of the road, lay them up and across it. Then the runoff will water your trees.

Western redcedar is pretty happy to spread it's roots and send up shoots from them, especially when planted in a wet area. I wonder if we could discover what substance redcedars really like, and then deposit a bunch of it in the middle of a road to encourage roots to grow into the road. Redcedar candy.

As a landscape guy in my particular area it’s becoming too dry for western red cedars and they’re dying out. In sequim. Further west like forks with more rain they thrive. I like your feedback thanks for humoring a crazy thought!

Maybe driving on the trunks would not be an issue.
I have abused mulberry and locust trees endlessly,  yet they still live.

The picture you posted is of a living bridge in India, and so far as I'm aware, they are just for foot traffic.

That said, corduroy roads lasted long enough to be worth the effort and for light traffic usage, if you've got lots of trees, I don't see any downsides to trying. We've cut down local maple trees, left them on the damp grass a bit too long, only to find they'd put roots down, so the right tree at the right time of year has potential.

I suspect they will take a fair bit of pruning and training to get the "covered bridge" effect, but if you succeed, that would help discourage growth on the lower level where you don't want it. Some of the willows and I've seen it happen with cedar, if you tie bits of two trees or two parts of the same tree together they can fuse into a solid, connected join. That's normally just over a short section, but that tendency could be used to support and reinforce the upper structure.

It would be a neat project, but would involve a fair bit of time to set it up, and then regular management during the early years. It would be pretty cool though!

I'm gonna say, cool but not feasible. Unless you have heavy equipment and a lot of spare time I just don't see the upside. The old loggers used to corduroy roads around here with less valuable logs but I haven't heard of one since I've been an adult. It's a cheap way to fill in a mudhole but only if you have log moving equipment incidentally just laying around... Plus if one tree dies and rots you have to go find the exact same shaped tree? Nah, no way.  I say build a road and plant trees over the top off it, like the pic above. Hahahaha, I am such a NAYSAYER!

Dan Fish wrote:... I just don't see the upside.

I have a path through my field that used to get seriously soggy in the winter. Every fall, I would dump 20 or more garbage cans of cedar chips from either tree companies, or ones we chipped ourselves, to make a narrow path through the wettest area, and gradually, higher and higher up the slope, as the low area gradually improved. I was amazed how many chips it took over how many years! However, we wanted to be able to mow the area in the spring, and our mower far prefers to hit woody stuff than gravel. We also wanted grass to grow there eventually. Now it's walkable most of the way even in the wettest winters, and the area near the winter creek is fully covered in grass. There's one steep part of the slope that's still an issue - give it another 5 years!

So something like this where wood is plentiful, the length isn't ridiculous, and where one would prefer to accept decomposition as a plus rather than a forever road, could have its place.

Also, if someone doesn't want a road or path to be obvious to the casual glance, this sort of plan, or at least something similar, could have a place. Someone made a path with bark chunks on a hugel at Wheaton Labs recently - it gave people a designated spot to walk, so less compaction elsewhere. The living road is just a much fancier and larger version of the concept.

William Bronson wrote:Maybe driving on the trunks would not be an issue.
I have abused mulberry and locust trees endlessly,  yet they still live.

In this scenario the center trees are covered with mulch which would I’m guessing either encourage root growth… or rotting either way the side trees will maintain the edge and allow for more mulch between wheels and feet to the original corduroy rd. If that makes any sense in real life logic I’m not sure I can’t wait to try it though.

Jay Angler wrote:The picture you posted is of a living bridge in India, and so far as I'm aware, they are just for foot traffic.

…….

It would be a neat project, but would involve a fair bit of time to set it up, and then regular management during the early years. It would be pretty cool though!

I’m thinking not a long road but more like a bridge through a bog. Somewhere wet enough all these trees will love to drop roots instead of dying. 20’ wide by 30’ long with a 14’ wide path underneath with trained cross x branches just like you’re describing. So on top be more like a natural gazebo second story over looking a pond. The uniqueness alone of this project would hopefully inspire some other cool projects. The 3’ wide mini grove walls if cross jointed and trained over a long time would make a living alter bridge. Think fairies and magic and you got this idea.

Jay I’ve read & liked many of your comments I’m straight honored you humored this post mad respect for you. Thank you I’m humbled.
This idea is not patented if someone else wants to try it…. like Wheaton labs… it would make a really really cool 20 -50 year project. Take only a few days with lots of people and the right area.

Dalton Dycer wrote:In this scenario the center trees are covered with mulch which would I’m guessing either encourage root growth… or rotting

I'm thinking that planks staked down might be a longer lasting approach than mulch. I'm guessing that mulch on top will encourage rot. That said, with my real-life example, if part of the goal is to build soil, rot is what does that!

Have people seen depictions of the archaic paths through bogs in England?

Jay Angler wrote:

Dalton Dycer wrote:In this scenario the center trees are covered with mulch which would I’m guessing either encourage root growth… or rotting

I'm thinking that planks staked down might be a longer lasting approach than mulch. I'm guessing that mulch on top will encourage rot. That said, with my real-life example, if part of the goal is to build soil, rot is what does that!

Have people seen depictions of the archaic paths through bogs in England?

The pictures you posted are so cool. Proof cool projects can and have been done for ages by hand! That would suffice for just a path just fine but if you could have a natural 2 story gazebo bridge by a pond to increase access I think you’d have a pretty dreamy oasis hotspot!

Dalton Dycer wrote:The pictures you posted are so cool. Proof cool projects can and have been done for ages by hand! That would suffice for just a path just fine but if you could have a natural 2 story gazebo bridge by a pond to increase access I think you’d have a pretty dreamy oasis hotspot!

It was more to show that planks can be used as part of the base - if they could make planks in the stone age, we ought to be able to manage the same now! I recall that there's evidence that these paths covered considerable distances.

But yes, your dream is much more beautiful. I don't have a boggy area that could do it justice. The best we've got is a winter creek that only runs 3 months of the year some years!

So initial area be set like this very fresh trees fell on the same day preferably not too hot and a Scorpio moon sign to encourage root growth when “transplanted” actually this would be a wonderful fall project when there’s lots of mud to sink the trees in. Not use any trees with a trunk larger than 1’ at the base so it’s something I could build with hand tools and a little tractor in a couple days. This is day 1 and 2 of the build clear the trees, leaving some branches on the tops to tell the trees “why not grow here!” Then cover the corduroy road logs set in mud with more mud, compost, and some wood chips to make a nicer path to walk on between the ponds.

Eventually the shoots will come and at point it’s a training game. The center will probably naturally not grow much as it compacts and acidification occurs.

Allowing 3’ of growth on the trees on the sides will create a lot for starts, some will be thinned some will be trained. The trained will be crossed to create a load bearing super structure over time.

10-15 years of training will result in maybe a tiny canopy (maybe 15 feet above walkway) that can be walked on and trained as a covered arbor. Basically a cool kids fort at this point.

20-30 years in
kids fort has turned into elevated gazebo oasis with a view on both sides of the amazing terraforming fairy bridge!
Weaving the reeds into walls make a nice camping chill spot to swap swamp stories! Make YouTube video of the whole thing update it over the years so all the fans of fairy bridge can hear the details.

You haven't stated it, but are you going to lay each of the logs in the reverse direction to the log before it? (so top to the upper left in the diagram on log 1, then top to the lower right in the diagram on log 2, then carry on in that pattern?)

ETA: even if it didn't work as your grand vision, having those logs on the muddy area will spread the load of people walking and small vehicles, wheel barrows etc, as well as elevate it a bit more, so it should be less soggy to get through in the short term. Pemaculture is all about experimentation - and then accepting what Mother Nature does with your experiment with grace!

I think layers of very thin saplings or cuttings might work better than bigger trunks.
The bundles of live  willow stakes that are used for erosion control are called brush mattresses:

William Bronson wrote:I think layers of very thin saplings or cuttings might work better than bigger trunks.
The bundles of live  willow stakes that are used for erosion control are called brush mattresses:

I was thinking this for the willows as they never really make 20’ long Timbers right. I’m thinking that the bigger logs might fashion more as a heavy impact taker while being a huge sponge for the little saplings like you mentioned. Love the idea of spreading mats of trees.
Thank you for sharing that was new for me. I’ll for sure use this knowledge in the future.

This is Permies, I don't think there is such a thing as *too bonkers* here. :) That said, I don't understand what advantage this would have over planning a road that works within a permaculture landscape as part of the water plan? (other than cool looking)

Also, how will the trees on the bottom continue to live if you keep cutting the shoots they send out? A tree will only continue to live for so long without leaves....?

Working with water is part of the point, I think.
Sometimes you need a road through a wet place.
I think the advantage of a living road is to minimize inputs.
Rather than moving tons of stone or gravel from off site, move trees and such from on-site.
Rather than importing materials for repairs, you harvest wood to keep the road from over growing.
If you let the trees grow vertical trunks on either or both  sides of the road, the roots that makes up the road could have sustenance.


I like this as even more as a parking spot than as a road way.

…

I like this as even more as a parking spot than as a road way.
“


Totally a great parking spot too. The idea being working with natural forces instead of against for sure. You’re a great idea ping ponger William thank you for your input it’s greatly honored and appreciated.

The idea that there could be covered parking in a wet location that you don’t have to build. That’s priceless. The corduroy road would be like a flat hugel over time and be a great sponge for growing lots of cool experiment crops. Hazelnuts do good here so throw some of those in the mix.  

Covered elevated gazebo you can camp in with parking underneath. Sheesh did I just stumble upon a way to air B and B wetlands? 😂

Cat Knight wrote:
(other than cool looking)why?

Also, how will the trees on the bottom continue to live if you keep cutting the shoots they send out? A tree will only continue to live for so long without leaves....?

As we work with nature in all permaculture systems the failure or death of the center logs just nurses the entire rest of the system, while holding lots of water. Essentially the idea was to create a path that wasn’t dead through the wetlands minimal impact but maximum pow 💥 factor when people see how the living system thrives from water it absorbs from the two ponds beside it. Also this would be more like a beaver dam in that it isn’t designed to stop water or last forever. No it’s more of a home for some Creatures until it breaks down and becomes a home for other creatures and plants that then grow and host more life. It’s more of a what could we do that really hasn’t been tried. How can an access point in a mud hole become
A focal point for an oasis… it’s a pipe dream at this point. But lots of people have enjoyed hearing about how crazy it would be to have a living road. The more hashed out the topic gets it’s seems like something very in need of a 20 year to life experiment site.

Make biochar, put on road/driveway, run over...boom living road

Joshua Baugh wrote:Make biochar, put on road/driveway, run over...boom living road

Honored to be your first comment Joshua.

Great idea, for sure add biochar to the top. Just going to get trampled in anyways and be like a gigantic filter too with all that carbon. I can’t believe I hadn’t thought of it myself. This is going to be one of my first projects when I get some land to play with that’s wetter!

Hi Joshua,

Welcome to Permies.

Joshua Baugh wrote:Make biochar, put on road/driveway, run over...boom living road

Welcome to Permies!