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Permie solutions to icy walkways?

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posted 3 months ago

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I still live in town with concrete sidewalks, which means if I don't treat them in the winter they'll turn into death traps for myself and my neighbors. As I face another winter, I find that the idea of contributing to salination of both my yard and the runoff water is not appealing. I considered sand, but it seems like that would build up in the soil around the sidewalks pretty quickly.

I have both a short-term and a long-term question:
1) Are there other options for treating my concrete sidewalks that I haven't considered?
2) Are there types of walkways that aren't prone to becoming sheets of ice in the winter?

Timothy Norton

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I live in a village where sidewalk maintenance is a must in the winter for all homeowners. Fortunately our village now has a little tractor plow that zips along the sidewalks to help out, it still is paramount that the homeowners make it walkable as soon as they reasonably can.

I have found there are a few tradeoffs that unfortunately exist when it comes to snow/ice management. If someone can find something that has no negatives I am all ears.

Options
A. Wood Ash - Provides traction and assists in melting snow in several ways. It can be tracked inside a house.
B. Sand - Provides traction. Can build up causing soil to enclose on sidewalk. Can be managed with edging. It can be tracked inside a house.
C. Used Coffee Grounds - Provides traction and dark color assists in melting snow. It can be tracked inside a house. Requires drying before storage or it may mold.

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Les Frijo

Posts: 254

posted 3 months ago

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Hello Amelia,

I live on a busy street/sidewalk at a 4-way stop. The salt use is brutal but at least there are no Harleys in winter

Sand would still be better than salt but you might have to sweep some up in the spring.

I found this on clearance and bought it to use as a partial pumice replacement in potting soils.

https://www.lavagrip.com/

I'm not recommending it. I'm sure it has it's environmental issues, mainly the mining. It's probably better for the surrounding soil than sand. Works great in soil. I would not have bought it if it wasn't on sale. The company never responded to questions I had so there is that too.

I would say that almost anything can become a sheet of ice in the winter under the right conditions. I would opt for leaving all the snow and ice and people adapting to it rather that all the silly icky stuff we do now.

In my observations what we do now creates terrible drivers and false senses of security. And poor people pay for it all. At least where I live.

Permie solution would probably be loads of straw or something. I bet it would work too.

FFS

Les Frijo

Posts: 254

posted 3 months ago

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Timothy Norton wrote:Fortunately our village now has a little tractor plow that zips along the sidewalks to help out.

My city has giant equipment that costs more than my house to do just city property. Their sidewalks are usually worse than anything un-shoveled. Unless they dump the piles of salt later

FFS

M Ljin

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posted 3 months ago

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If one were interested in a long term solution… here in New England there is a long tradition of making covered bridges. Mainly because they don’t rot in our humid climate like uncovered ones would (when they still made wooden bridges). But one could use it for inspiration and put up a roof over surfaces where people walk in winter where ice is a problem. And if one put gutters onto that roof, one could potentially gather rainwater for the garden or to direct as needed toward swales, ponds, etc.

One can never be too kind to oneself or others.

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Tyler Grace

Posts: 110

Location: Colorado Springs, CO [Zone: 5B/6A]

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Timothy Norton wrote:C. Used Coffee Grounds - Provides traction and dark color assists in melting snow. It can be tracked inside a house. Requires drying before storage or it may mold.

That got me thinking, what about using biochar?

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thomas rubino

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posted 3 months ago

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So, if we are talking about the public sidewalk in front of your house.
Keeping it shoveled is common courtesy, but it is also required in many locales.
Dealing with any ice is not required, but it is indeed a nice thing to do.
Remember, quite often the freeze-thaw cycle happens daily.

If you burn wood, you have ash, which is a safe, natural ice-melter.
Using it directly at your doorstep, you could track it indoors. (Get a door mat)
However, I see no problem using it on the public sidewalk; your mailman and any walkers would appreciate it.

I love the idea of a New England-style covered walkway, but only up to your door; the town might not let you put it near the road

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Les Frijo

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I like all of these solutions.

For a sand replacement/enhancer I like a mixture of the black pumice(if available), used coffee grounds, biochar and wood ash. All of that could be swept up and used to improve soil somewhere in the spring. When the sun does come out there could be additional melting with the darker color as well.

Vinegar is supposed to help some too. Maybe mix that right in with the rest?

FFS

Eric Hanson

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posted 3 months ago

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Honestly, I think that sand it the best. True, there is a little cleanup in spring, but this is pretty minimal. Typically I find that the sand seems to disappear anyways and just is not a problem. And sand will stick around and give good, solid traction like no other option. And the sand that does make it into the soil will do very little one way or the other.

My 2 cents

Eric

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Matt McSpadden

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Hi Amelia,
It looks like people already suggested my first two thoughts, which is ash and sand.

I will say that from an environmental standpoint, I prefer straight salt to the newer mixtures that have salt and other things.

I will also throw out melting as an option. Some people have installed pipe under their driveway or walkway and run hot water through them to melt it. There are electric options as well. I'm not sure if the energy is worth it, but it's a simple and effective option... though expensive.

If you had a solar hot water heater and an excess of hot water (unlikely in a cold climate) you could use that to melt through to something less slippery. I had a paved driveway that got compacted with about 4-5 inches of snow and ice that I could not shovel or snowblow. One day I had time and was tired of this, so I hooked up a hose to the hot water and ran it out the window. I used a lot of propane for my hot water heater that day, but it was very satisfying to "cut" out chunks and shovel them out of the driveway.

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Eric Hanson

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posted 3 months ago

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Amelia, Matt,

A thought about salt.....

Straight salt--NaCl--is pretty corrosive to just about everything in the water/air environment, x10 in a water/air/metal environment. Calcium carbonate on the other hand is far less toxic to the ground, plants, far less corrosive to everything, melts ice at a lower temperature.

Matt--I understand being wary of some of the newer things that get into everyday products, but my thoughts are that calcium carbonate don't belong on that list. I am NOT saying that there is no harm, only that it is less than NaCl.

My thoughts, do whatever you think is best.

Eric

Some places need to be wild

Douglas Campbell

Posts: 159

Location: Nova Scotia

posted 3 months ago

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I get limestone grit; about 1-3 mm diameter. Soils here are acidic so it is bifunctional for me.
35 y ago in northern Sweden they intentionally left an ice cushion, drove bikes and cars on studs, and used kicksleds for pedestrians.
A practical people if the cold is consistent.

I wear NEOS overshoes with studs; unstoppable on ice, and add ~ 10C of warmth to shoes.
Remove at entrances.

Catie George

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Location: Ontario - Zone 6a or 4b, depending on the day

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I like sand. I grew up in Alberta, where it's often too cold for salt, so instead there are sand yards, where the sand is stored for the summer, then applied over the winter, and then swept up by trucks in the spring. Also in a location where you'd get fined, or sued, for icy sidewalks. We used sand, and just swept it in the spring. I really missed that law where I moved to somewhere maintained by the city, who left 1-2" of ice/slush on the sidewalks, to avoid damaging their plows!

Now in Ontario, the local municipalities put out a sand-salt mix for people to grab for free. I like it, because it doesn't freeze solid like wet sand, and is far less salt than actual salt, plus it adds traction, so you use way less salt... Also, admittedly, I like it because it is free, and I am cheap. I also use ash, but wouldn't in the city. The eco friendly ice melts work well, are less damaging, but very expensive. I use it on my north facing landing, where I don't want to track in sand or ash.

If you can, another solution is physically reducing how much ice you have to deal with.

Making sure your sidewalks are edged before winter, which creates little mini drainage channels for small amounts of meltwater to drain. And, of course, scraping sidewalks to the ground after a snowfall. My mother reduces the ice on her sidewalk by trenching over to a drain in the fall, which often gets clogged with weeds, ensuring that water has a path away from the sidewalk.

Jesse Glessner

Posts: 492

Location: Indiana

posted 3 months ago

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Catie George wrote:I like sand.
Now in Ontario, the local municipalities put out a sand-salt mix for people to grab for free. I like it, because it doesn't freeze solid like wet sand, and is far less salt than actual salt, plus it adds traction, so you use way less salt... Also, admittedly, I like it because it is free, and I am cheap. I also use ash, but wouldn't in the city. The eco friendly ice melts work well, are less damaging, but very expensive. I use it on my north facing landing, where I don't want to track in sand or ash.

I have a cement walk between my house and garage and steps and pads outside of both front porch doors, all great places to go bottoms up! I usually buy a sack of contractors sand (the brown stuff, NOT playground stuff) and dump that into a 5 gallon bucket to easily fill, and use one of the old small coffee cans or large plastic peanut jars with holes drilled in the lids to sprinkle sand around the place. It doesn't take much, just a light film on the cement. During times with the sun shining the sand melts down through the snow/slush/ice like crazy and it doesn't take long until the sidewalks are clean.

As for personal safety there are gadgets that pretty much slip on over your shoes/boots that are similar to the spiked shoes that golfers wear. They are "spiked" and are good grabbers, but if you're not used to them they can be clumsy - and where are you going to put those when you get to where you're going? I'd rather sweep up a bit of sand. IF you sprinkle that lightly you may not even realize that you tracked any inside.

JayGee

craig howard

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posted 3 months ago

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No sidewalks here but I still need to make pathways in the yard.
I usually try to pack it down instead of moving it.
In the spring the paths are ice instead of mud, until the frost goes out
I sprinkle granite chicken grit on spots that are slippery.

Johanna Rayman

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I keep the sidewalk shoveled for pedestrians, and to cut down on shoveling I sprinkle dried leaves from my Western Redcedar between the house and garage, which works pretty well.

But for walking around town I like to use Yak Trax (Action Traction is another brand) - they fit over your shoe and have cleats for ice. I first saw this product when I was lying on the icy ground for the fifth time in ten minutes (we get ice storms in Portland that cover everything with a thick sheet of ice) and someone walked by, easy as you please. He was happy to help me up and tell me about his secret footwear. I have never fallen on ice since then!

Matt McSpadden

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I second some sort of slip on cleats for ice. They work great.

Another option I have done on accident is to leave things bumpy. I recall using a snow blower and the wheels left tracks in the snow... we got freezing rain the next day. Still slippery, but the ridges made it much less slippery.

Thekla McDaniels

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Not options for all locations, but wood chips on pathways allows water to drain away, leaves a textured surface. The problems with ice are related to the smoothness of it. I leave some snow and make sure it’s textured rather than shoveling down to bare concrete.

Crushed egg shells work for texture too.

Like many, I use ashes from the wood stove too.

Best luck: satisfaction

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Thekla McDaniels

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And bird seed

Best luck: satisfaction

Greatest curse, greed

Matt McSpadden

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Location: Central Maine (Zone 5a)

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Thekla McDaniels wrote:And bird seed

Around my house, this would only work for about 10 minutes... until the chickadees found it :)

Thekla McDaniels

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Of course the birdies enjoy the seed. I put out more than I need for the ice. The birdies peck the surface (texture), poop, which is going to act as ice melt. And the husks from the seed also function as anti slip.

It’s worth a try😁

Best luck: satisfaction

Greatest curse, greed

Barbara Simoes

pollinator

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Location: Middlebury, Vermont zone 5a

posted 3 months ago

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On Pinterest, I saw a recipe that includes 1 tsp. of dish soap, 1 tablespoon of rubbing alcohol and 1/2 gallon of warm water. Does it work? I don't know, but I thought I'd put it out there and see if anyone has tried it. I'm thinking some sort of sprinkler watering can would be the simplest way to apply if it does work....
In an apartment where I used to live, the shower drain used to freeze, so I would put a splash of rubbing alcohol and before long, the water would drain out. I also used to have a car that had receding door handles--great for aerodynamics but terrible in an ice storm. Again, I had to spray rubbing alcohol in order to have the handles release. It always worked and never caused damage.

Matt McSpadden

gardener

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Thekla McDaniels wrote:Of course the birdies enjoy the seed. I put out more than I need for the ice. The birdies peck the surface (texture), poop, which is going to act as ice melt. And the husks from the seed also function as anti slip.

It’s worth a try😁

That is a very good point :) I should let them help me out, haha

Rez Zircon

Posts: 355

Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV

posted 2 months ago

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It doesn't take much sand. A bare sprinkle like you're salting meat for roasting is enough. Use the coarser, more angular sand if you can find it (what they sell in tubes is good for this). I keep a bucket of sand on my porch because my front walkway is east-facing and gets icy, and I've been using out of the same bucket for 6 or 7 years now and still have most of it. Even a small amount stops the slippery and starts the melt.

Out in the dog yard, which also gets icy, I use plain dirt from my barn floor. It's quite sandy and it works well.

The problem with ash is that when wet it can become more slippery than nothing. Wet ashes ==> lye, which is really slick, and highly corrosive.

I like the idea of using birdseed!

yet another victim of Obsessive Weeding Disorder

Rez Zircon

Posts: 355

Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV

posted 2 months ago

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By amazing coincidence, today this was a topic in the Iowa Gardening Newsletter.

https://yardandgarden.extension.iastate.edu/how-to/using-deicing-salts-home-landscape

I have wondered if granular fertilizer might work for the purpose.

yet another victim of Obsessive Weeding Disorder

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