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Minimum protein and fat

John F Dean

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To be clear, I am not looking for the figures off the back of a can. Does anyone know, from a legit source, what the minimum intake of protein and fat is for survival? I am not after the minimum for optimal health. I am after the minimum figures to sustain life. To make my point, we know that prisoners of war received rations well below the figures we find on the back of a can. Those prisoners lived for a number of years on those rations.

I am certain that the figures would be, at best, a guesstimate. I seem to remember figures of around 20 grams, daily, for each. But I cannot locate the source.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

r ransom

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Hudson bay, circa 1880s, recommend at least a pound of animal fat per day for a trapper in northern wilds of canada.

The studies from the military circa 1920s differ dramatically. By the 1980s, the numbers are reduced, but still a focus on fat for survival as it is high in energy and makes one feel full.

But these are for extremely fit individuals doing high levels of activities. Not a normal human in a sudden survival situation. For those it's recommended to be as close to your normal diet as possible or lose a lot of time to bowel troubles.

Protine depends on the length of time in a survival situation. A couple of months or less, normal north american human body mass for 1980, your body can eat it's own protine if needed.

So I never memorized the protine specifically, except to note that the recommended protine changes dramatically depending on who did the study and what culture and what environment. Old military studies seems the most accurate to modern day standards (we still base a lot of our dietary mythology on them like 8 cups of water a day for dessert survival).

This is all assuming moderate to extreme activity. Less active dramatically reduces dietary needs.

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Jay Angler

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This issue is surprisingly complex.

1. There's "complete protein" (most meat and fish for humans) and "incomplete protein". If you can combine two (or more) incomplete proteins to make a complete one, that makes a huge difference. It is why I look for "traditional" dishes - humus combines chick peas with tahini (sesame seeds). Humans don't need the same amount of each amino acid, so trying to match up the foods that work takes good documentation. If you substituted a different ingredient for the chick peas, the amino acid ratios may change, and you might get the same calories, but not necessarily the same amount of useful protein.

2. Similar problem with fat. R ransom is correct - fat is dense calories which is essential when food is scarce and *particularly* if people need to stay warm. However, there are also "essential fatty acids" and once a specific human has used those up, they are in danger regardless of how many calories they eat. This is why there's something called "rabbit famine". Rabbits don't have enough fat in general, and certainly not enough of the essential ones to keep humans alive long term if they're the only source of protein.

3. A big reason humans like domestic animals may be that the wild version generally have much lower fat stores. Beavers were generally not hunted by the Indigenous people in Canada, unless they were in a starvation situation, where the beaver fat became essential for survival.

4. I have read that fish and seafood were particularly important in many diets specifically because of both the quality and quantity of fat.

Sorry, this doesn't exactly answer your question, John...

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John F Dean

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Hi Jay and r,

Appreciate the effort, but I suspect the answer may not exist. I was hoping for a reasonable projection based upon the knowledge we do have. Where I have looked recently always has a much higher threshold than I am looking for. Yet, for some reason those numbers stick with me that a minimum of approx 20 grams of protein and 2O grams of fat would be needed for long term survival ( not thriving, not reproducing). That would be about 1 ounce of each. I will define long term as more than a year. Though I would like to see 2 years.

The numbers I remember make sense in that they reflect a little less than 1/2 of presently accepted recommendations.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

r ransom

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Maybe some more questions to help narrow it down?

Survival usually means moderate to extreme physical activity (military studies)

Wheres staying alive so breathing and heart and slow to no massive damage to organs, that would be medical like hospital stay. They have a lot of nutritional guidance for that. There are also some very sad studies on this from Germany during ww2. Madonic, i think that was how to spell it, was specifically about this.

The time matters. Most military studies are for a month in Survival situation. But the studies on the british soldiers who returned from Burma during WW2 give a massive amount of information on multi year situation.

Climate also influences dietary needs. Generally the closer to the poles, the more protine and fat (thus the one pound of fat per day for northern Canada trapper). Closer to the equator, vegetarian diets work well.

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Douglas Campbell

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posted 6 months ago

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It also depends whether caloric needs are being met by carbohydrates, or not.
Protein needs as a 'nutrient' are indeed low, 20 g sounds reasonable, but many current diets use protein as a major calorie source as well.
And as Jay et al. write, activity is a huge issue.

My grandfather used to pick his logging camp (ca. 1920) based upon the quality of the cook.
They used to eat ~10,000 cal per day sawing & chopping in the cold. You need palatable, rich food to achieve that intake.
He also kept an iron grip until his death at 90.

John F Dean

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Hi r,

I have read the Mauthausen study. Unfortunately, the documentation it is based on I find suspect (. Inmates report a much lower food intake that he “study” suggests). The inmates reported a coffee substitute for breakfast, cabbage or turnip soup for lunch, and bread with 20 grams of margarine for supper. So, I would assume there was maybe 10 grams of protein in the bread. It is hard to tell because the contents of the bread varied greatly.

To answer your question, I suppose I am looking at a notch or two above minimum body function. In other words, I would not include “labor”. I would include the energy to bath, dress, and eat.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

r ransom

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Malnutrition is a big problem in hospital and care homes. (Off the record, I've been told it's the primary cause of or contributing factor in death in these situations).

So there are a lot of studies on minimum dietary intake for survival for low to no activity (get up, hobble to toilet, hobble to dining room, hobble to tv....) so the government can set guidelines for criminal negligence.

I can't find one right now, but about 10 years ago, I got some from the dietitian from the local hospital. They were interesting, but I didn't remember the numbers.

This might be the place to start. Most health authorities publicly publish nutritional standards for different kinds of stay in care or hospital.

Note, old people have different needs than younger people of the same activity level so take into account if the study is older or younger population.

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John F Dean

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Hi r,

With the danger of drifting off my original topic, hospitals and nursing homes here in the USA are often stuck by their irrational interpretation of standards as well of the surveyor’s irrational interpretation of standards.

During my wife’s last hospital stay we were confronted with that BS. The hospitals computer, aided by the dietitian, refused to approve her dinner order. Why? Because it had too much of one food group and not enough of another. Of course, she decided she didn’t want to eat anything. Which, of course, leads directly to the point you raise. Of course, I ever so politely asked if the dietary recommendations were for each meal or a daily average. I also asked if she ordered nothing, would it satisfy her dietary requirements if I bought her a cheese burger, fries, and a chocolate milkshake. They relented. The real insult is that she offended the computer by asking for 2 bananas ….of course one of her problem was that her potassium levels were low.

I fully endorse the concept of a balanced diet in health care settings, but I feel that maybe a weekly average might be a better approach. If I eat bacon and eggs for breakfast does it matter if I have a salad with minimal fat or protein for dinner?

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

r ransom

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It's a bit different here. The patient (mostly) has a choice of what to eat. They encourage strongly the total food for the day (not just one meal) meet the dietary standards, but they also know that humans are human. IV nutrition can balance out extreme cases. But also, it's handy to see what and how they would eat at home so they can adjust recommendations to accommodate the behaviour.

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r ransom

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I should mention, if you don't follow the guidelines, once you get home from hospital, you get to spend a lot of time listening to a dietitian "help" you evaluate your diet. Then explaining to them that you don't eat soy because you will die. Then listening to them complain about how they can't give you a balanced diet....

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Weight loss studies are interesting for this

This has a good review of different studies, but 0.4 g protein/day/lb of body weight was associated with very little muscle loss while losing weight. So for a 150 lb person, that would be 60g of protein/day. Significantly higher than your 20g, but an interesting number.

https://legionathletics.com/minimum-protein-per-day/?srsltid=AfmBOor9fL_d0w756Yo0oVhKibDhv3Kn0QMLOuPEzvchvAKfLvBDrT8A

I saw a claim, with no good reference, for 0.25 g/day/lb of body weight for fat, as the minimum. That translates to 37.5 g for a 150 lb person.

This source defines a 'very low fat diet' as 33 g of fat per day in 2000 calories. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/01.CIR.98.9.935

Furthermore, they say ' The importance of the issue is not clear in the absence of established requirements for essential fatty acid intakes at any age. Estimated requirements range from 3% to 5% of caloric intake.75 76 This requirement translates to ≈7 to 11 g for a 2000-calorie diet and is usually met by the inclusion of polyunsaturated fats as a source of linolenic acid.' I can see how doubling that, because you don't JUST get essential fatty acids leading to 20g as an average figure for total fat required.

So a 'safe' healthy minimum would likely be 30 g of fat, and 60 g of protein for 150 lb person. For survival, likely less, maybe 20g of fat, no good data on protein, but keep in mind there was significant disease related mortality in POWs being fed these super low fat/protein diets.

This is low enough that it should almost be possible to reach just with things like whole grains and legumes.

John F Dean

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Hi Catie,

It sounds like you have encountered some of the sources I have. I agree, the minimum to be be alive fora year or two is different than the minimum to be healthy.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

Susan Holvenstot

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Hi all, this is my FIRST reply to Permies, tho I have read for years.

I got into Fasting and Raw Food about 20 years ago with Ray Kent.
He said: 'Most people are 'protein poisoned.' Most foods have some protein, even lettice, so his advise was 'don't worry about protein.'
I sorta did Raw Foods, amd Fasting Retreats with him, for several years on Vancouver Island. That helped my body cleanse, and reset, and I lost about 30 lbs. Now I pretty much eat whatever I want. Yes, meat, yes, cooked foods, tho I still enjoy a large raw salad everyday.

And his MAJOR advise was 'Listen to your body.'
Cause everyone is different.

Studies... sure...numerical vales... sure...but if you feel good, then you are doing the right thing.

I'm 75 years old now, still doing hiking, yoga, travelling, gardening and enjoying my life.
Many blessings to all.

PS, Ray used to say, 'don't worry about your insides, ... liver, kidneys, etc... Just zip it up. Your body knows how to heal itself.' Fasting will help your body cleanse, and process whatever foods you do eat more effeciently.

R Scott

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The latest I read or listened to was 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of target body weight. The stranger thing was it was higher for older or sedentary. Someone already in shape and not injured can get away with less. That is for optimum, not survival.

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John F Dean

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I tried a different approach to my search. With zero fat, death comes in 8 to 12 weeks per calendar-Australia

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

John F Dean

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According to nutri.it.com death comes in 70 days without protein.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

John F Dean

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So, if the above figures are correct, the figures I recall of 20 grams daily each of fat and protein seems like a believable minimal intake to maintain life.

To stress the point, I am not talking about maintaining good health. I am addressing keeping the body alive at low level of functioning.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

Anne Miller

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John F Dean wrote:what the minimum intake of protein and fat is for survival? I am not after the minimum for optimal health. I am after the minimum figures to sustain life.

I don't know a source other than Dr Atkins. and as far as I know as much as you can get. Sorry I don't have what you are looking for.

In a survival situation, what you can get depends on what you can get.

If you can hunt then that is a source of both protein and fat.

If you cant hunt then beans and other sources of protein though where to find fat?

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R Scott

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One other thing with protein, your body treats small quantities of protein mainly as calories. You need a big dose of protein for your body to treat it as building materials. So you are better off saving your protein for one big(ger) meal even if that means days in between protein.

George Ingles

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The mention in an earlier post of 'rabbit starvation' brought to mind a book about survival skills I read: Unlearn, Rewild.

One of the contentions in this book is that although rabbits are too lean and have not enough fat to sustain a body as one's only food source, there is a simple transformation that can happen to the meat to turn it into a very good source of fat and protein...
I will offer an entomophagy 'trigger warning' here for the squeamish.
The offspring of flies, after they consume the spoiled meat, become a more complete food than was the rabbit.
It would be quite a gag-reflex to overcome I'm sure, but he recounts an anecdote of a man during the depression that would keep spoiled meat in the basement and scrape the 'baby flies' onto his toast each day for food value.

I make no claim that this is a safe or desirable practice - do your own research.
However, in a discussion of bare minimums of fat and protein for survival I thought it was relevant.

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r ransom

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If you are in the situation, the smell of a person can usually tell you when they aren't getting enough protine. There are a lot of health issues that can be detected by smell, but apparently, most people I know cannot or do not smell them. I don't know if I'm unlucky this way.

For example, rotten orange smell is usually related to blood sugar. Cheap restaurant fettuccine is often a sign of infection. Lack of protine manifests as ammonia smell.

Urine can usually indicate dietary deficiency. Lack of protein, if memory serves, is brown (not dark yellow) as it's the waste from our body absorbing itself.

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John F Dean

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Hi George,

Rabbit Starvation was one of the concepts I had in mind when I made the OP.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

John F Dean

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Hi r,

To add to your post, back in the 70s I had more than one grey haired nurse telling me about tasting urine to detect diabetes.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

John F Dean

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Hi R Scott,

You approach a fantastic topic. In a near starvation situation, to what degree does a person need to be concerned about protein for building? Certainly, I would not be concerned about muscle building, but just the process of replacing dead cells, even if not at 100%, levies some nutritional demand.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

Anne Miller

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A few years ago I did a topic similar to this subject.

This might help: with minimal protein

The DRI (Dietary Reference Intake) is 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, or 0.36 grams per pound. This means: 56 grams per day for the average man and 46 grams per day for the average woman. Active men and women would need more and heavy people would require more.

https://permies.com/t/93941/nutrients-important-protein-fiber-vitamins

Healthy fats are a consideration, I use avocado, nuts and fish to get fat in my diet.

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Tereza Okava

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John, you can find reference levels per kg of body weight for critical care patients being tube fed, particularly for protein, that might be helpful for you. They usually start with an absolute-minimum protein number to reduce kidney load (assuming someone is comatose post-trauma) and then go up.

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Hi Tereza,

Interesting approach. I have an IV book somewhere in my library. I will look for it. I imagine the information is somewhere on the net. Of course, most sites just repeat standard nutritional figures for optimal health. I am wondering how low those figures can go long term without the person dying,

Roughly translated, I am getting about 40 grams of protein for a 150 pound person with kidney damage but not on dialysis. So I am still left questioning. People in prisoner of war camps experienced much lower intake than that for many years.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

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there are a lot of studies in gerontology that address malnutrition and talk about protein and calorie minimums (https://www.espen.org/files/ESPEN-Guidelines/ESPEN_practical_guideline_Clinical_nutrition_and_hydration_in_geriatrics.pdf https://aspenjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ncp.10542 references at the end of https://www.droracle.ai/articles/258750/what-are-the-principles-of-feeding-and-nutrition-fnf). when they say that for kidney patients the minimum is 0.8 g/kg of body weight you figure that is probably the minimum they could safely recommend.

that said, there are supposedly old studies from the 1950s using nitrogen balance/tracers that determined a limit of 0.6, and I know I've read about starvation studies from the same period, but my very brief research only brought up one thing and I don't want to fire up my university access to go looking. maybe https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022316623118785

John F Dean

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Working backwards, 1200 calories is at the lower limit for a diet. 10% protein is the lowest protein recommended. That would be 120 calories from protein. Protein has 4 calories per gram. Therefore ….following this questionable logic….probably 30 grams of protein would be the lowest limit,

In case anyone is Interpreting this wrong, I am not suggesting these figures be used for any diet. It is just my own curiosity.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

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I would have thought that 1200 calories would be too low for most people to maintain weight on. Maybe a small, sedentary woman but most women would need 1600 calories as a bare minimum. Which would mean 40 grams of protein minimum. And most men would need over 2000 calories, so at least 50 grams of protein using that 10% thing.

I'm curious why anyone would need to know the minimum amount of protein for long-term survival though. Are you planning a survival stash of food? I would have thought if you were planning anything it would make more sense to plan for more protein than bare survival. And if you're caught out without plans then you eat what you can get!

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I was wondering what kind of situation are you thinking of in regards to this, if there is any?

My thought is that usually the body understands how much of every nutrient it needs and feels hungry without it, except in the case of psychological derailments like stress. So any much prolonged feeling of being hungry and specifically unsated, I theorize, would be unsustainable in the long term and lead to poor health.

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I have recently come across information that the protein requirements for the elderly should be calculated at either 1.2 grams per kilogram (2.2 lbs.) of body weight, OR 1.5 grams per kilogram of body weight. This is a significant increase over previous recommendations of 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight. This increase was attributed to a phenomenon called "anabolic resistance" which is attributed, in turn, to the decrease in physical activity by the elderly, I inferred this to mean that the decrease in activity leaves the muscle mass of the elderly less able to metabolize the amino acids in foods. My problem with this protocol is that, at 73, ingesting this amount of food is a challenge to my decreased ability to digest such quantities of food.

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I am at an age where these sorts of higher protein needs are coming into play. (It's not your actual body weight in these calculations, I believe, it's the weight of an active 30-something man of the same height. Some people thus need even more protein than they think based on what the scales say, and some significantly less).

Luckily, I can eat peanuts, which are 25-30% protein. Grazing on peanuts is my most affordable way to top up my protein (and fat) intake.

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Hi Burra,

I am not interested in these figures for maintaining weight. I am curious about them for maintaining life. This is where finding the information gets tricky. The nutritional information out there is for a healthy diet. The figures I am looking for are certainly not healthy.

At this point I am thinking that a 1200 calorie diet with 30 grams each of fat and protein might be the bottom line for the “average” person. No, I am not suggesting this as a weight loss diet ….though I would certainly dump a good deal of weight if I was on it.

And, to be clear to anyone reading this, there very well could be damage to one’s body. But, I suspect that if the above diet could be maintained, then they could stay alive for years…..not happy …not in good health…but alive.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

Catie George

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posted 6 months ago

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At a certain point, what you are really asking is- "given body reserves of so much fat, and so much protein, how little can I eat so that those reserves will last me 1-2 years".

Again, POWs, prisoners, and people in concentration camps fed starvation diets had high mortality rates and often long term damage to their health, despite some people surviving.

For example, a relative was apparently in a Siberian work camp for 7 or 8 years, and died within a year of going home. Lots of people never made it out of the gulags.

R Scott

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posted 6 months ago

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John F Dean wrote:Hi R Scott,

You approach a fantastic topic. In a near starvation situation, to what degree does a person need to be concerned about protein for building? Certainly, I would not be concerned about muscle building, but just the process of replacing dead cells, even if not at 100%, levies some nutritional demand.

That is another interesting point to look into, autophagy. Evidently your body much more efficient at recycling old proteins when fasting than when in a calorie restricted (starvation) diet.

As for muscle building, that depends on activity—are you sitting in a safe room waiting out the situation or are you suddenly trying to build a garden out homestead or new shelter?

Your body is constantly breaking down and rebuilding, or you are slowly dying. You need protein and minerals to rebuild, but the quantity and quality are so variable I don’t know what questions would lead to a better answer.

Rachel Michelle

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posted 1 month ago

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There are trace amounts of fat and protein in nearly everything. Oats have fat, beans have fat, potatoes have protein, even lettuce. All this is sufficient without any added oils or high protein sources. I learned to eat this way by studying Medical Medium information. In fact, once I greatly reduced the overt fats (oils, nuts, seeds, coconut, avocado, etc) in my already plant based diet - that's when I started really healing all manner of symptoms I had. I have gone months at a time completely overt fat free and felt amazing. I also don't ever think about protein in my diet because I know it's a non issue. The protein theory is a brainwashing, a spell we are all under. And it's liberating to know. Protein and fat don't heal and they don't give energy. It's the critical glucose and trace minerals our bodies need and thrive on.

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