Win a Fokin hoe blade this week in the Gear forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Mike Jay
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Miles Flansburg
garden masters:
  • Dan Boone
  • Dave Burton
  • Steve Thorn
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Shawn Klassen-Koop
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Mike Barkley

They're coming after meat, now..

 
pollinator
Posts: 758
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
37
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Brace yourselves, meat eaters... global Big Ag is trying to take out meat!!   I hope this is posted a few other places on Permies:

https://www.dietdoctor.com/report-cut-red-meat-eating-by-80-percent-to-save-the-planet?utm_source=Diet+Doctor+newsletter&utm_campaign=d22d5496fb-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_01_23_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_41db911777-d22d5496fb-466571785

Read the links regarding:  - the make up of the 'commission'; the soy interests, et al; the environmental value of livestock, etc.  My favorite response to accusations of animal cruelty is that when raised naturally, instead of 'industrially',  they have the best life possible, with the exception of one bad day... actually, only one bad moment, when done right.

And here's Dr. Georgia Ede's (a carnivore) response:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/201901/eat-lancets-plant-based-planet-10-things-you-need-know

I think this may be a positive move.  This huge campaign tells me that healthy folks are a real threat to the (well subsidized by our tax $) sugar, soy, seed oil and grain industries.  Yay!  This sounds like deja vu of the '80's when the sugar industry promoted the 'fat is bad (not sugar)' canard, taking a page from Big Tobacco's playbook.  And how many people unnecessarily died from cardio et al diseases?  (An engaging, non-diet-partisan history of 'nutritional guidelines' is 'Death by Food Pyramid' by Denise Minger.   Also, Taubes' latest 'The Case Against Sugar' details that deadly campaign.  

Maybe our response slogan could be, 'They're doing it AGAIN!' ... if we can figure out how to make the sugar vs fat horror story into an easily comprehended soundbyte, for the clueless.  How about, "They vilified fat so they could shove sugar down our throats... now they're demonizing meat so they can shove soy & starch down our throats".
 
Posts: 497
Location: Rural Unincorporated Los Angeles County Zone 10b
32
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

nancy sutton wrote:This sounds like deja vu of the '80's when the sugar industry promoted the 'fat is bad (not sugar)' canard, taking a page from Big Tobacco's playbook.  And how many people unnecessarily died from cardio et al diseases?



I don't understand why anyone would eat something just because someone else else tells them to eat it.
 
master pollinator
Posts: 8282
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
635
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Everything I've seen on this, tells people that they should eat more vegetables and then things like lentils and chickpeas. I don't think anyone is suggesting that people need to live on starch. I eat meats of all sorts, but I know that I don't need to eat the vast qualities that I sometimes have.

When we look at the extreme obesity found in North America, I'm reminded of the words that John Pinette, a grossly overweight comedian, who died young, would often open with.

"I didn't get this way from eating vegetables."
             John Pinette

During two months in the Philippines, I lost weight while  eating large amounts of deep fried chicken.  I didn't really put it together why I lost the weight until I got back home to Canada. Then I woke up three days in a row, went to Starbucks and had Earl Grey tea that is usually about one-third milk and cream. I always refill at least once and usually twice. And because I'm a greedy bastard, I usually take the lid off the chocolate on the second run and pour half of it in, so I'm having hot chocolate on the second go, always with at least two packets of sugar plus whatever was in that stuff they call Coco. So there's no question to me that my fat face came from the consumption of dairy products.

Several times while I was away, I lamented that I couldn't find this stuff. Then I looked in the mirror, and there were my long-lost cheekbones, that had been covered in blubber for several years.
Screenshot_2019-01-19-22-54-53-1.png
[Thumbnail for Screenshot_2019-01-19-22-54-53-1.png]
 
pioneer
Posts: 875
Location: 4b
139
bee building dog forest garden trees
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The Inuit live on meat and fat only.  They are not overweight, and have none of the physical problems that are common in "civilized" nations.  Sugar and processed foods seem to be far more dangerous than meat.
 
Dale Hodgins
master pollinator
Posts: 8282
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
635
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The Inuit  used to live on this stuff.  The vast majority now live in government made settlements and on packaged Foods brought in from the south. As a cohort they have some of the worst health problems of any group of people on earth. Diabetes is rampant. Alcoholism and cigarette smoking are commonplace .The highest rate of suicide in Canadian society and possibly the world.

Usually after the Inuit are mentioned, the Maasai can't be far behind. I was in a Maasai Village filled with very unhealthy people. They claimed to live on meat and blood. 10,000 plastic junk food wrappers that litter the ground in their village, said that this was untrue.
 
Trace Oswald
pioneer
Posts: 875
Location: 4b
139
bee building dog forest garden trees
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Dale Hodgins wrote:The Inuit  used to live on this stuff.  The vast majority now live in government made settlements and on packaged Foods brought in from the south. As a cohort they have some of the worst health problems of any group of people on earth. Diabetes is rampant. Alcoholism and cigarette smoking are commonplace .The highest rate of suicide in Canadian society and possibly the world.

Usually after the Inuit are mentioned, the Maasai can't be far behind. I was in a Maasai Village filled with very unhealthy people. They claimed to live on meat and blood. 10,000 plastic junk food wrappers that litter the ground in their village, said that this was untrue.



Exactly.  Proves my point I think :)  They were fine living on meat and fat.  They added in "civilized" foods, are their health deteriorated immediately.
 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 758
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
37
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Actually, as you can see in the chart in Dr. Ede's article, the largest amount of calories comes from 'wheat, corn, rice and other'... i.e., starch, as I understand it.

And the popularity of almond products makes me sad, as I think the bees are being worked to death to provide them for us.

 
Trace Oswald
pioneer
Posts: 875
Location: 4b
139
bee building dog forest garden trees
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

nancy sutton wrote:

And here's Dr. Georgia Ede's (a carnivore) response:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/201901/eat-lancets-plant-based-planet-10-things-you-need-know



The response was well written and sums up some of my concerns about a vegan diet.  You often hear people promoting a vegan diet for the health benefits, even calling it the perfect diet, but those same people will admit deficiencies in a vegan diet force people to supplement if they wish to stay healthy.  I have trouble understanding the disconnect.  The perfect diet, but you must take supplements if you wish to stay healthy on it?  Doesn't that in itself show that people were not meant to live on a vegan diet?  On the other hand, people can eat only meat and fat and thrive.  
 
master pollinator
Posts: 10983
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
579
cat chicken fiber arts fish forest garden greening the desert trees wood heat
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have not had much success growing grains, so that wouldn't be a good diet for me as I try to grow more of my own food and eventually get to a permaculture diet.  I'm trying to reduce grains in my diet, actually.  I seem to feel better and maintain a better weight without them.

Oh, also, when I was eating very little meat I got a B12 deficiency.  Not sure what folks are supposed to do on that diet if they don't have access to B12 supplements.  
 
Trace Oswald
pioneer
Posts: 875
Location: 4b
139
bee building dog forest garden trees
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Tyler Ludens wrote:I have not had much success growing grains, so that wouldn't be a good diet for me as I try to grow more of my own food and eventually get to a permaculture diet.  I'm trying to reduce grains in my diet, actually.  I seem to feel better and maintain a better weight without them.

Oh, also, when I was eating very little meat I got a B12 deficiency.  Not sure what folks are supposed to do on that diet if they don't have access to B12 supplements.  



Tyler, I find the same when I follow a strict paleo diet.  I feel better, I have much more energy, my body fat drops, I sleep much better, my digestion is perfect.  Luckily for me, my idea of permaculture and the paleo diet go hand in hand.  Healthy meats and eggs, lots of veggies, and fruits in season.  Hopefully, nuts will be added in at some point from my own land.  Grains don't work well for me either.  I seem to tolerate rice and oats better than the others, but I can easily live without them.
 
pollinator
Posts: 572
Location: Southern Oregon
86
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
One of the issues that bothers me with these kinds of studies, is there doesn't appear to be any differentiation between homegrown or industrial food. It doesn't seem like an apples to apples comparison. Nor do I appreciate being told what to eat while others jet around the world. We are all willing to give up or limit different things, others choices are not better than mine. Nevermind that this study or that opinion, don't get to "tell" anybody what they can/should do.
 
Tyler Ludens
master pollinator
Posts: 10983
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
579
cat chicken fiber arts fish forest garden greening the desert trees wood heat
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I agree, Stacy, especially as everyone's metabolism is different and a diet which may be beneficial to one person may make another person sick.  So far, the only definite bit of information I've found about diet which may be universal is "eat more vegetables." But that doesn't mean any given person can survive on only vegetables.  Humans seem to have evolved to eat virtually anything that is edible, and only recently (10,000 years or so) have we eaten large amounts of grain.
 
gardener
Posts: 1160
Location: mountains of Tennessee
350
bee cattle chicken homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

And the popularity of almond products makes me sad, as I think the bees are being worked to death to provide them for us.  



Oh, they definitely are. Spreading bee diseases in the process.

Did anyone catch the "taxes for meat" proposal in one of the original articles?

See this spiffy new cow icon? She's a happy little cow & shall depart quietly now. Before she makes a pie she might regret.







 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 758
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
37
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, I've seen the 'tax meat' idea... in UK papers, anyway.  This is a very well coordinated, well funded, long-planned onslaught.  I'm guessing that the paleo, LCHF, zero carb, carnivorous, keto, et al diets, and the resulting improved health for a LOT of folks, has them really spooked, to judge by this reaction.  Not to mention the very latest REAL scientific evidence/trials (not unreliable epidemiological 'surveys') that support low carb.  (I'd hate to think that 'medical' entities are supporting this nonsense to guarantee future 'customers'... but Goldman Sachs did tell their investors that they don't make money with cures... their profit is in never-ending 'treatments'.) What also bothers me, is that institutions, hospitals, schools, etc will feel bound to follow this 'official' nonsense, not least because meat is expensive and starch is dirt cheap, as 'we' taxpayers subsidize it big time.

There may be some hope... I think a Swedish medical organization has come out with guidelines that, courageously, flip the typical 'pyramid', i.e. reducing starch and increasing protein... they apparently look at the real science (I'm 1/4 Swedish : ).   Plus, even the USDA has dropped their hard limit on 'high cholesterol' foods... saying the science isn't clear enough on any possible danger.   And, of course, there is ... US ! : )  I hear the call
...
 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 758
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
37
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If 'everything one has seen on this says to eat more vegetables', maybe the Zero Carb thread posted by Matt Walker would be interesting...
https://permies.com/t/73817/kitchen/Experience-Eating-Plants-aka-Carb
not to mention Joe Rogan's interviews with Jordan Peterson and his daughter (and a lot more are out there)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLF29w6YqXs

Vegans (and their allies) have been much more effective at 'evangelizing' (tarnishing their name to the point that they've had to change their label to 'plant-based diet'), with significant millionaire money behind their media, so it's natural their message would be getting to the top of our awareness.  But there is another interesting overview of the Ancel Keys/fat debacle, and the latest research, titled 'The Magic Pill' on Neflix.  (The numerous 'debunking' YT videos are educational, also : )   (As I've said, I think our only argument should be with cruel 'industrial' Big Ag CAFO meat production.... not disputing the demonstrable health benefits of various diets for various people!)

Update (2/6/19) - more info on major funder for the EAT Lancet report, advising 80% reduction in meat consumption... for the planet!  
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/globe-trotting-billionaire-behind-campaign-13872067
 
Tyler Ludens
master pollinator
Posts: 10983
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
579
cat chicken fiber arts fish forest garden greening the desert trees wood heat
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

nancy sutton wrote:If 'everything one has seen on this says to eat more vegetables', maybe the Zero Carb thread posted by Matt Walker would be interesting...



That's the thing, as I see it.  Everyone has a different metabolism.  Even if "eat more vegetables" works for most people, it might not work for everyone!  Each person needs to work out their best, healthiest diet, and it isn't for anyone else to determine that for them (in my big fat opinion).
 
garden master
Posts: 2536
Location: Central Oklahoma (zone 7a)
465
forest garden trees woodworking
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Just because it's contrarian to the general run of thinking here on Permies, I'll chime in with my own dietary crankery, which has worked very well for me in reversing my vascular insufficiency (edema in the legs and some ominous hot black pre-ulcerous areas on my shins that persisted for years but are now gone) and diabetes (A1C 7.5 for several years, considered "controlled" while taking expensive courses of "DIAL 1-800-BAD-DRUG" meds that made my congenital heart valve damage worse, but are now at "normal" sub-6 levels with no meds).  I eat a starch-heavy plant-based diet with little meat (basically the only meat I eat is the leftovers that my loved ones would otherwise feed to the dogs -- which seems to be enough to keep B12 deficiency at bay) that's heavy on whole-grain bread and legumes -- a LOT of legumes.  And, really, a metric shit-ton of home grown tomatoes (in season) and onions (year-round) and potatoes (white and sweet).  Greens (a few, the ones I grow, in season, but I don't really like them so it's not huge nutritionally) and herbs.  Very little processed food.  Too much booze.   A smidge of mayonnaise because tomatoes without mayo is just not conceivable.  As much fruit as I can forage, grow, or buy in attractive condition at attractive prices.

Starch is the point of this diet ... it provides the satiety that other people get from fat in other ways of eating.  I can testify that it's possible to reverse diabetes while eating a starch-heavy diet.  I think the health benefits -- such as they are -- come from avoiding processed foods in general and most fats in particular; by avoid animal products (which are fat-heavy) and processed foods (which include all cooking oils) I rarely encounter much dietary fat except in nuts and avocados.  I don't avoid grains in particular, but I seek out whole grain ingredients and won't buy breads or other processed grain products where fat is more than 10% of the calories, which excludes most of the supermarket products out there.  I also don't specifically shun sugar, except insofar as it's calorie dense and I'm a fat person, so it's not something I am looking to consume in quantity and I avoid it by default when I don't buy processed foods.

I got into this way of eating based on a crankish heart doctor book that made a prediction that blood sugar and blood pressure numbers would show improvements within 48 hours if I tried it.  I was so offended by this obvious nonsense that I said to myself "Pish tush! That's a falsifiable assertion that I can easily falsify and then I never have to think about this nonsense again!"  Sadly my blood sugar and blood pressure numbers showed such radical improvements within hours after I stopped eating animal products (specifically the animal fats contained therein) and processed foods (over-engineered vegetable oils and corn sugars, mostly) that I have been living the nonsense ever since.

Fortunately, my family still eats meat and they are FUCKING TERRIBLE about food waste ... the leftovers go into the fridge to die, but they never come out again.  My childhood programming against food waste is VERY GODDAMN STRONG and feeding perfectly good leftovers to the rescue dogs only assuages the guilt to an extent.  If the leftovers are humdrum or ho-hum, the dogs get them, but when they are choice or I have the drunken hungries, I eat 'em.  It works to keep the B-12 deficiency at bay.
 
master pollinator
Posts: 2850
Location: Toronto, Ontario
316
bee dog forest garden fungi homestead hugelkultur cooking rabbit trees urban wofati
  • Likes 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have always eaten a plant-based diet. All of us have. Some of us just choose to do so second-hand.

I am too lazy to go eat all that greenery, so I let a helpful vegan do so for me. And then I eat them.

Kidding aside, I have been eating much more in the ways of meatless meals over the last four years. My much better half eats meat, but doesn't consider it the point of every meal as my family tends to do. Between that and not being independently wealthy, and preferring to eat my convictions and vote with my wallet, I eat meat far less frequently, and usually the meat I do get comes from a local butcher that sources meat both locally and ethically.

Most of the time, when I make a vegan meal, it's by accident. We will have more olive oil than butter, so I will use that on the pan. We won't have meat, so I will use mushrooms and lentils, and maybe quinoa, along with tomato puree and cocoa powder, and I will build my, in this case, vegan chili on that base. It only ceases to be vegan when I top it with cheese.

Plant-based eating, for me, is about convenience. With the exception of cured and canned meats, and freezer storage, which is limited, dried plant goods can be bought cheaply and, stored properly, can remain safe to eat for much longer than that can of spam in the cupboard, and tastier, besides.

But it hasn't impacted my weight. I actually put on weight when I started eating less meat, probably because I wasn't as sated as I was used to, and so ate more to compensate.

What changed my weight was not drinking a tallboy of craft beer every night.

I think that between a de-emphasis on meat and a crackdown on unethical forms of farming, it will become more popular to keep animals according to the "One Bad Day" theory. There will be fewer people buying cheap meat, so less cheap meat will be raised, an ethical and environmental win.

Of course, less meat will be bought in general, so the price of "One Bad Day" meat will also come down.

I don't think it's strange that, for instance, the Canada Food Guide has eliminated meat and dairy as their own food groups. It was reworked in the absence of industry lobbyists, much to their chagrin. Why else would fully half of our food groups be animal-based?

I love meat. I just don't love the industry standard, or much of what is commonplace and accepted "best practice." I would like to see organic pasture-raised meat receiving a pass on any additional surcharges, mainly to keep good meat at an accessible price, but also to spur both consumption and production of organic pasture-raised meat, or as I would like it to be known in the future, meat.

Just like I don't think it's wise to gather the milk from thousands of cows and mix it all together, I don't think it's wise to ship raw meat, or live animals, to a few giant processing plants and, in some cases literally, mix them all together, rather than to have it all processed locally. And if the pink slime process is necessary to gather all the disparate bits of meat left over from processing, I think the process might be too slipshod for industry, and for the ethical treatment of the bodies of animals that died so we could eat.

It's a hard thing to deal with. Not omnivorousness, not veganism, not food choice, but thought. Ideas. People are constantly trying to dumb decision making down to a yes or no. Scientific explanations must be dumbed down to the point of senselessness, or some simply won't get it, which means nobody gets an accurate idea of what's being communicated because it's being delivered through this stupidity filter.

It's pervasive as all hell. Just try to solve problems in this world, and if your solution isn't reducible to two or three syllables, you're out of luck. It's sound-byte culture. It doesn't matter which politician has the position better-suited to the world we live in, the one that will get the votes is the one with the better one-liner.

Just look at the news. What's causing global warming? Carbon dioxide (oh, shit, that's five syllables, better shorten it to CO2). What is the source of all problems in the States? Immigrants (illegals, if you prefer). What's the solution? Build that wall.

Yes, carbon dioxide is the chief atmospheric component causing climate change (for now, wait until the methane in the permafrost gets airborne), but that's far from the whole picture. Sadly, news clips don't allow for the whole story, so the opposition can easily ridicule the over-simplification.

Every time in the last forty to fifty years, when the topic of diet has come about, how often has the "culprit" behind bad eating been reduced to a single component? Fat, salt, sugar, cholesterol, and now meat. I think the basic problem is that most people don't want to think. They are mentally lazy. They want to be given the answers, and then they don't want to change after they've made up their minds. So the "answers" must be simple and to-the-point, and right on the first try, otherwise the "information consumer" will change the channel.

Oh, and if the learned people are wrong even once, that means the whole system of scientific endeavour must be discarded as trash. I mean, if one bit is bad, it's all got to be bad, right? Better to get back in that cave and watch the shadows on the wall, because at least there, everything was black and white.

-CK
 
Stacy Witscher
pollinator
Posts: 572
Location: Southern Oregon
86
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dan - so glad you found something that works for you. I was lucky they were able to repair my heart issues with a simple catheter procedure. But your diet isn't likely to be how others will adapt to less meat and dairy, but rather more fryer oil and other industrial food products.
 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 758
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
37
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
FWIW, here's the info on why the vilification of 'natural' livestock is wrong  (from the Diet Doctor) link -
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/green-keto-meat-eater-part-1

And I do wonder if possibly the reduction of sugar, that I see in many personal accounts, may account for much of the health improvement that is attributed to the reduction of meat.... ?   (We'll probably never know :)
 
Greg Mamishian
Posts: 497
Location: Rural Unincorporated Los Angeles County Zone 10b
32
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Trace Oswald wrote:

nancy sutton wrote:

And here's Dr. Georgia Ede's (a carnivore) response:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/201901/eat-lancets-plant-based-planet-10-things-you-need-know



The response was well written and sums up some of my concerns about a vegan diet.  You often hear people promoting a vegan diet for the health benefits, even calling it the perfect diet, but those same people will admit deficiencies in a vegan diet force people to supplement if they wish to stay healthy.  I have trouble understanding the disconnect.  The perfect diet, but you must take supplements if you wish to stay healthy on it?  Doesn't that in itself show that people were not meant to live on a vegan diet?  On the other hand, people can eat only meat and fat and thrive.  



Excellent point, Trace. The "ideal" diet is a combination to be determined by each individual for themselves. Each combination is different because people live different lives in different environments. I chose my own combination that fits me well. It's vegetables fruit nuts grains eggs and butter. I'm 70 and have never taken a prescription drug in my life. So the combination I chose has worked out pretty well for me.

Choose the combination that fits you best and you'll do fine.
 
Mike Barkley
gardener
Posts: 1160
Location: mountains of Tennessee
350
bee cattle chicken homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
https://aci.edu/five-types-human-teeth-function/

Quoted from the article. "Cuspids, also known as canines, are the closest link between the human mouth and that of a carnivorous predator, like a tiger or wolf. Mirroring the pointed teeth we associate with predatory animals and vampires, these are sharp, pointed teeth on either side of our incisors that are used to do exactly what they look like they are meant to do–tear into food and rip it apart."

What do tigers & wolves & presumably vampires eat? MEAT. Mother Nature equipped humans with meat eating teeth as well as veggie grinding teeth for a reason. I think the key here as in so many other things is moderation & variety.

As far as most commercial animals are raised ... in my opinion that whole system & people's acceptance of it needs a lot of improvements. The sooner the better. Making a few changes to improve pastures & their soils here but the animals live a happy healthy life until that fateful day. Sequestering a large amount of carbon in the process.
 
Trace Oswald
pioneer
Posts: 875
Location: 4b
139
bee building dog forest garden trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mike Barkley wrote:Mother Nature equipped humans with meat eating teeth as well as veggie grinding teeth for a reason.



A point that is somehow missed so often.
 
Chris Kott
master pollinator
Posts: 2850
Location: Toronto, Ontario
316
bee dog forest garden fungi homestead hugelkultur cooking rabbit trees urban wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think that it is suggested that meat-eating is a thing to be evolved away from, although I would like to hear vegan opinions on that. I have never met even a very ardent vegan who will deny that we evolved as omnivores.

At the crux of the larger issue is the SAD (standard american diet), an appropriate acronym indeed. We as a whole tend to eat way too much garbage food, mass-produced and processed, and cheap, feedlot meat is no exception. With the exception of those who tend towards a largely carnivorous diet, eating more nutritionally substantial meat would mean less meat consumption, as eating more nutritious food in general means that you need consume less.

So while the meddling is problematic, making it more expensive to make cheap meat will only improve the overall quality of what remains available.

-CK
 
pollinator
Posts: 821
Location: Pac Northwest, east of the Cascades
190
building chicken earthworks forest garden homestead hugelkultur rocket stoves solar trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Trace Oswald wrote:

Mike Barkley wrote:Mother Nature equipped humans with meat eating teeth as well as veggie grinding teeth for a reason.



A point that is somehow missed so often.



Sadly there are a lot of vegans and vegetarians who seem unable to accept the fact we humans are omnivores. So much so I have found vegan and vegetarians who try and combat their own with the truth of humans being omnivorous so that the vegan and vegetarians can argue from fact rather than falsehood.

Here are 2 links to such articles

This one is actually countering a common image used to argue humans are frugivores by comparing teeth of various animals.
https://veganbiologist.com/2016/01/04/humans-are-not-herbivores/

This is one of my favorites as it is a very well done breakdown of all the scientific reasons we humans are classified as omnivorous.
https://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

BTW for some reason I have yet to get a rational argument from a vegan or vegetarian when presented with such info. They actually tend to get very irrational or attempt to change the subject quickly.

Something else I like to mention is how it would have been impossible for primitive humans to be vegetarian, since it wasn't until foods from all over the world were combined that the right mix of vegetarian sources for nutrients was found. Humans would have gone extinct due to malnutrition long ago if we had lived vegetarian diets.

Now all that said, omnivore does not = carnivore. I have no problem saying much of the US and 1st world nations likely eat too much meat in their diets. But we also tend to eat too much high calorie grains as well. Thus we end up with all these 0 calorie and low calorie "foods" to attempt to reduce our calorie intake after consuming too much. Over all we humans are still adapting to our change in food from our hunter gather days to the current agriculture times. Agriculture is just a small blip in our timeline, and it will take time for us to figure it out and adapt. Eventually we will find balance, or we will likely go extinct.
 
Trace Oswald
pioneer
Posts: 875
Location: 4b
139
bee building dog forest garden trees
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Devin Lavign wrote:

This one is actually countering a common image used to argue humans are frugivores by comparing teeth of various animals.
https://veganbiologist.com/2016/01/04/humans-are-not-herbivores/



This is a really well written article confronting the idea that veganism/vegetarianism is the healthiest diet.  I'm very glad a vegan wrote it.  I have no issues with vegans that follow the diet for moral reasons.  It's when simple biological facts are ignored to make a false point that I take issue with it.
 
Devin Lavign
pollinator
Posts: 821
Location: Pac Northwest, east of the Cascades
190
building chicken earthworks forest garden homestead hugelkultur rocket stoves solar trees wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Trace Oswald wrote:

Devin Lavign wrote:

This one is actually countering a common image used to argue humans are frugivores by comparing teeth of various animals.
https://veganbiologist.com/2016/01/04/humans-are-not-herbivores/



This is a really well written article confronting the idea that veganism/vegetarianism is the healthiest diet.  I'm very glad a vegan wrote it.  I have no issues with vegans that follow the diet for moral reasons.  It's when simple biological facts are ignored to make a false point that I take issue with it.



Yes I specifically look for vegan and vegetarian sources when combating vegan and vegetarian propaganda and myths. There are plenty of great vegans and vegetarians who don't make stuff up or who aren't inflexible in their thinking. They sadly get drowned out by over zealous ones though. I have grown up around vegetarians and vegans all my life. Most are respectful wonderful folks who don't push their diet upon others. They do it for their reasons and if you ask they will explain but wont try and convert you if you don't show interest.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1284
Location: RRV of da Nort
125
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Another pretty interesting view on the issue regarding evolved diet in humans and close ancestors:  https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/human-ancestors-were-nearly-all-vegetarians/

The article makes one mistake in my mind, common and yet understandable though it is, and that is to equate....or nearly so.....*our* ancestors with current day primates.  There is of course *some* merit in doing so, but one must be cautious about the conclusions drawn and be cognizant of misinterpretation.  Another factor worth reflecting on is the common perhaps 'over'-interpretation that our teeth determine us to be hunters.  Certainly the structure of our mandibles and teeth are consistent with meat-eating, but as one paper queried:  "Take a look at the teeth of any animal. The chances are you'll then have a good idea if it's a meat eater or a vegetarian. Sharp canines? Easy. All the better to eat you with. But how would you find out whether your chosen species got by on dead meat, or if it survived and thrived by catching live prey?" --  Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-02-scavengerthe-meat-thieving-traits-stood.html#jCp"

No easy answers from the top article, but it sweeps broadly through evolutionary time which makes sense to me and is quite thought-provoking.  Personally, I'm pretty omnivorous (....and when popcorn is available, pretty 'cornivorous'--hardee, har...), but my wife is trending vegan for ethical reasons.  That said, we equally kill kamikaze roosters on the property and my wife has no problem eating what she kills.
 
Posts: 387
Location: Australia, New South Wales. Köppen: Cfa (Humid Subtropical), USDA: 10/11
82
cat chicken fish forest garden homestead hugelkultur cooking transportation trees urban woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I recall getting a Larson 'Far Side' desk calendar years ago as a Christmas present - this particular one sums up the vegie/fruit versus meat debate for me:

bears-gary-larson.jpg
[Thumbnail for bears-gary-larson.jpg]
Bears In The Woods
 
Greg Mamishian
Posts: 497
Location: Rural Unincorporated Los Angeles County Zone 10b
32
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Devin Lavign wrote:BTW for some reason I have yet to get a rational argument from a vegan or vegetarian when presented with such info.



You'll never get an argument from this vegetarian, Devin...

...because I'd never presume to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't eat. How in the hell would I know when all I can do is to find out for myself what works best for me. The indicator I go by is my own body. Not needing to go to the doctor tells me what I'm eating is right for me.

There's an old saying: "An apple a day keeps the doctor away." That sounded true so I eat an apple every day... and what do you know, it actually works. (lol)
 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 758
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
37
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here again, with more reaction to 'EAT Lancet' report, an email from Chris Kresser, a functional medicine guy I really trust (foot notes all his information etc)...

EAT-Lancet: the latest attack on meat

From: Chris Kresser
To: n sutton

Feb 21 at 5:03 AM

Hi, everyone, I’m sure you’ve heard about the EAT-Lancet study by now.

It’s the latest in a seemingly endless parade of agenda-driven editorials masquerading as scientific research with the intention of promoting a vegetarian/vegan diet.
Frankly, after many years of writing 3,000- to 5,000-word articles systematically picking apart studies like this, I simply couldn’t muster the energy to respond to this one.  I spent many weeks researching and preparing for my debate on the Joe Rogan show with vegan doctor Joel Kahn, and during that process I wrote more than 25,000 words on this topic.  All of those articles are organized by category on this page - https://chriskresser.com/why-eating-meat-is-good-for-you/
Everything you need to know about why meat and animal products are not only essential to our health, but to our ecosystem, can be found there.

As for more specific critiques of the EAT-Lancet study, fortunately, many others have risen to the challenge. My three favorite articles are:
  20 Ways EAT Lancet’s Global Diet Is Wrongfully Vilifying Meat, by Diana Rodgers
  Should You EAT Lancet?, by Marty Kendall
  The EAT Lancet Diet Is Nutritionally Deficient, by Zoë Harcombe

...Unfortunately, studies like this aren’t going to stop. They’re part of a coordinated plant-based agenda that continues to pick up steam.
For example, back in November of ’18, researchers at Oxford University called for a “meat tax,” claiming that it would save $172 billion in healthcare costs.
I don’t know if or when this will happen, but there’s a considerable amount of support for it in the mainstream health and political worlds.

We’ve still got work to do ...
In health,
Chris

P.S. … and part of that work is countering the vegetarian and vegan health and environmental narrative. The best way to do that is with a film. .... Fortunately, there’s one in the works (called Sacred Cow), and I’m an advisor and supporter and will be featured in it. Will you consider helping out? Click here to learn more.  

https://filmmakerscollab.networkforgood.com/projects/45545-filmmakers-collaborative-kale-vs-cow-the-case-for-better-meat

 
garden master
Posts: 3320
Location: Greater Houston, TX US Hardy:9a Annual Precipitation: 44.78" Wind:13.23mph Temperature:42.5-95F
1174
books forest garden greening the desert tiny house transportation urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I tend to ignore this kind of news, because I find that the news is spurious and not as well thought out as it could be. So, I prefer to read books on topics that I seek any sort of advice from, because I think good books will have more effort and thought put into them. With regards to this topic, I think there are multiple ways to to eat healthy and live a good life.

I think it is very telling to observe the many ways that people have eaten well in many First Nations tribes:



And another example, there are many ways that babies are fed around the world.



I think it is all about just finding something that works for you and ignoring the "advice" of "experts"
 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 758
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
37
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
FWIW, I posted the OP to alert to the large and powerful 'political' campaign to limit (by a number of means) our access to meat.   I don't really care how any one eats (althuogh sharing personal stories is fun and educational :), but I do care about an effort to limit our options... as this certainly is... IMO : )  I didn't intend to trigger a debate over which of the many 'diets' is better... just want meat eaters to be aware of this threat (not to mention the damage to our environment that could result from erasing animals from our agriculture).
 
Greg Mamishian
Posts: 497
Location: Rural Unincorporated Los Angeles County Zone 10b
32
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

nancy sutton wrote:FWIW, I posted the OP to alert to the large and powerful 'political' campaign to limit (by a number of means) our access to meat.



...under the false flag of environmental purity... and utilizing the coersive power of government taxation regulation and litigation.
 
Devin Lavign
pollinator
Posts: 821
Location: Pac Northwest, east of the Cascades
190
building chicken earthworks forest garden homestead hugelkultur rocket stoves solar trees wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Greg Mamishian wrote:

Devin Lavign wrote:BTW for some reason I have yet to get a rational argument from a vegan or vegetarian when presented with such info.



You'll never get an argument from this vegetarian, Devin...

...because I'd never presume to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't eat. How in the hell would I know when all I can do is to find out for myself what works best for me. The indicator I go by is my own body. Not needing to go to the doctor tells me what I'm eating is right for me.

There's an old saying: "An apple a day keeps the doctor away." That sounded true so I eat an apple every day... and what do you know, it actually works. (lol)



Yep that is why I mentioned in my next post

Devin Lavign wrote:Yes I specifically look for vegan and vegetarian sources when combating vegan and vegetarian propaganda and myths. There are plenty of great vegans and vegetarians who don't make stuff up or who aren't inflexible in their thinking. They sadly get drowned out by over zealous ones though. I have grown up around vegetarians and vegans all my life. Most are respectful wonderful folks who don't push their diet upon others. They do it for their reasons and if you ask they will explain but wont try and convert you if you don't show interest.



The truth is there are more good vegetarian and vegans who don't push an agenda, but because they aren't vocal they aren't heard. Instead we get the over zealous vocal folks giving folks like you a bad name. Thankfully I have grown up with vegetarians and vegans around me so don't judge all by the vocal minority. Same is true about a lot of different groups. You hear the vocal ones who more often than not don't represent the whole.
 
pollinator
Posts: 340
Location: Colville, WA Zone 5b
76
books goat homestead kids
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am someone whose life was changed by a zero carb carnivore diet.

WHen I moved to my off grid home 5 years ago, I had no refrigerator and it took me 3 years to get enough power to run one. In the meantime I mostly lived out of a camping cooler.

This meant much less fresh meats and much more canned & carby foods, just very little meat in general, and a pretty close to vegetarian diet. It was still pretty "healthy" and mostly homemade.

It destroyed my health almost completely. By the time I went to my doctor trying to find out why I could not function, I had gained a bunch of weight, was pre-diabetic, had sleep apnea (probably because of the weight gain), horrible psoriasis all over my face, was constantly exhausted and literally would come home from dropping the kids off at the bus in the morning and then sleep another 3 hours (that's after sleeping 9 or so in the night).

The exhaustion was due to critically low iron levels, which didn't make sense to me since I always cook on cast iron, took a supplement, and was still consuming enough (plant based) iron rich foods, right? Wrong. I think my body doesn't absorb iron from plants.

Within 30 days of cutting out all carbs and eating meat only, I lost 30 lbs (yes, that's a lb a day), was no longer critically anemic, no more sleep apnea, no longer pre-diabetic, and I could go on. After about 5 months, my skin fully cleared and I have completely smooth skin now.

That was a really important lesson to me. There is no money to be made in healthy people and unfortunately as time goes on, this becomes more and more of an "agenda" in my opinion. I literally never take any study or especially governmental advice seriously anymore. I don't think I'll be 100% meat forever (and really, I'm more of a meat-heavy keto these days since I do enjoy some vegetables and I do treat myself to whatever I want on special occasions) but still - this is important. It makes me kinda mad when I see people vilifying meat as unhealthy when in fact it is quite the opposite, at least for me.
 
Chris Kott
master pollinator
Posts: 2850
Location: Toronto, Ontario
316
bee dog forest garden fungi homestead hugelkultur cooking rabbit trees urban wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Bethany Dutch wrote:
That was a really important lesson to me. There is no money to be made in healthy people and unfortunately as time goes on, this becomes more and more of an "agenda" in my opinion. I literally never take any study or especially governmental advice seriously anymore. I don't think I'll be 100% meat forever (and really, I'm more of a meat-heavy keto these days since I do enjoy some vegetables and I do treat myself to whatever I want on special occasions) but still - this is important.



I am not a fan of that brand of extreme thought. To literally never take any study or government advice seriously because one piece that seems to work for many people, seeking most of one's food from plant sources, didn't work for you is an overreaction of the worst kind, in my opinion.

It's like saying that the weatherman was wrong today, so wrong that I got drenched in a deluge or stuck in a snowdrift, so I am never listening to the weather again.

-CK
 
Posts: 184
Location: Northern Puget Sound, Zone 8A
11
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My niece finally started to eat meat a couple years ago.  My sister was a vegetarian since she was about 14.  So, unsurprisingly, her daughter chose to be vegetarian from a very young age (maybe 5).  My niece was self-conscious about her height.  She was 4'8-9" at 12.  Granted my BIL's side isn't especially tall, but most are at least average.  Finally a doctor laid it out that if she didn't start eating meat she just wouldn't grow much more.  So, she started eating some meat (mostly chicken, and maybe some other meats).  She's now 15 and 5'1-2".  Although she's unlikely to grow any more, at least she got to over 5' tall.

The general manager where I work showed up here 7-8 years ago and rather obese.  He got into bicycling in a huge way, and also chose to go vegan.  He's now probably one of the fittest of the almost 500 people in the facility.  

What's my point?  Similar to others in this thread, dietary choices are personal, and while there some fairly universal aspects of good dietary choices (minimal processed foods, getting balanced nutritive properties, etc) whether that's through a herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore based foods, finding your own best mix is best, and we should be OK with others finding a different mix that suits them.
 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 758
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
37
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Some one mentioned 'books', and here's a new one that might provided needed scientific research (not subsidized by Big Ag, et al) to counter the suspect rationales in the 'EAT Lancet' report:  (I've already put in a 'Purchase Request' at my library :)
'Nutrition in Crisis', by Feinman, published by Chelsea Green, 2019.
 
Something must be done about this. Let's start by reading this tiny ad:
permaculture bootcamp - learn permaculture through a little hard work
https://permies.com/wiki/bootcamp
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!