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The United Nations says Geo engineering is inevitable

J Davis

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So today, my inbox contained an article from the Council on Foreign Relations, The Internationalist Newsletter - International Institutions and Global Governance Program and was raising awareness and linking to this article on World Politics Review website.

UN says geo engineering is inevitable, but at what cost

"Humanity must also consider a third option it has long resisted: geoengineering, or the deliberate, large-scale manipulation of the planetary environment. Solar radiation modification denotes the deployment of technologies to alter the amount of radiation entering or leaving Earth’s atmosphere."

Regular posters on this site regularly lump weather modification, geoengineering, chemtrails, and solar radiation management with right wing conspiracy theories which have no potential link to permaculture. There is much throwing of labels and dismissiveness and zero discourse, inquiry, consideration of possibilities, impacts, risks, or even much civility. It is damaging to permie credibility to be on the "vigorous denier and dismisser" side of this issue which "if true" would have massive implications to soil, self-reliance, and food production worldwide.

For the sake of civil discourse and for the sake of the credibility of our attachment to reason, can we please drop the conspiracy theory label now?

I am fully aware that a goodly portion of the internet is devoted to conspiracy theories and I don't want too see permies drift in that direction. But Permies focus is largely about building soil and if experiments are either already occurring or according to the UN will soon be occurring on a large scale which will put toxic gick into the soil, we ought to be able to talk about "what gick, what would be the likely impact to the soil, and what might we be able to do about it" without having to deal with childish non-communication techniques like labels and bigfoot sighting comparisons...

Tyler Ludens

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Building regenerative landscapes is a climate manipulation technology that permies support. I don't personally support the strategy of dumping junk in the atmosphere in order to change the climate. Permaculture and other regenerative landscape technologies solve multiple problems at once. I'm not convinced "solar radiation modification denotes the deployment of technologies to alter the amount of radiation entering or leaving Earth’s atmosphere" is going to solve more problems than it ultimately may cause.

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James Landreth

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I admit that I haven’t done a ton of research on climate manipulation, but here are my thoughts.

I’ve spent quite a bit of time in China, where they do things like seed the sky for rain. But there are limits to this technology which will pretty much always be there.

The first thing with that particular technology (seeding for rain) is that there has to be water in the atmosphere in the first place in order to bring it down as rain. Desertification in China has caused this to not be the case more often than not, especially in the north. You can’t make water where none exists. If it’s there you can do all sorts of thing--slow it down, retain it, make it fall as rain, whatever.

Tyler brings up an interesting point, which is that we can influence climate positively and cheaply/with simple technology via permaculture. Vastly more successful than seeding for rain has been the mass reforestation policies and projects of China, such as Saihanba, the biggest man made forest on earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saihanba_National_Forest_Park

Another thing about geoengineering is that it requires a large industrial, globally networked economy, which pretty much has to be based on fossil fuels. These technologies are expensive and require advanced materials, tools, and personnel. There are parts of China and the world that would use this more but don’t, even though they could benefit. They don’t use it because they can’t afford it. In Yunnan Province, for example, they wisely choose to build swales and terraces to retain water instead of trying to seed the sky for such a vast area because it is immeasurably cheaper and longer lasting to employ this strategy.

The world is heavily in debt, including places like China which are often thought to not be. We’re all deeply in debt, cheap resources are running out, and climate is changing/natural disasters becoming more powerful. If we can’t afford this technology now why would we be able to afford it in the future?

I’m not saying geoengineering isn’t happening necessarily (though as I said, I’ve only done cursory research). It does seem to me that simpler, lower tech solutions are more promising and more likely. Humans have experimented with and developed a lot of different technology that was never deployed on a large scale because of practical and cost related considerations.

When you reach your lowest point, you are open to the greatest change.
-Avatar Aang

J Davis

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James Landreth wrote:I admit that I haven’t done a ton of research on climate manipulation, but here are my thoughts.
"there are limits to this technology which will pretty much always be there"

Thanks for the thoughts!

The limits to technology are typically not what they seem.

For example, where I sit right now is roughly twenty miles from Oak Ridge, TN, the secret city where the atomic bomb was researched and brought to fruition without the knowledge of the general permies.

"Despite the rush of activity and population explosion, the top-secret work behind developing the first atomic bombs managed to stay a secret. A billboard erected in Oak Ridge during the war, typical of the secretive nature of the city, read, “What you see here, what you do here, what you hear here, what you leave here – let it stay here.” The fact that the Secret City was created and worked under a cloak of secrecy is a testament to human ingenuity and efficiency."
https://exploreoakridge.com/history/the-secret-city

So again, dismissive treatment of this topic is perhaps inconsistent with an ethos of caring for the planet.

Exhibit A - for profit company providing raw materials to the airlines which are dispersing, now: http://weathermodification.com/

Exhibit B - Patent # (approved) which demonstrates existing of atmosphere modification capabilities which are not broadly acknowledged
4,686,605

Chris Kott

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The only geoengineering ideas that I don't think are a good environmental fit are those that block out the sun with aerosols. Those really tend to give me pause. I would be fine with an array of orbital solar satellites that generated solar power, for orbital or terrestrial use.

I would love to see more than a wild claim about your Exhibit B.

I don't see anything to get excited about. Cloud seeding has been used since what, the seventies? The limits of the technology are well known. The site that you linked to basically shows that half of their business is in accumulating and assessing environmental data to see which, if any, form of cloud seeding could be viable. Which is not to say any will be, but as that's what they're trying to sell, they won't explicitly state that, except perhaps in some qualifying fine print.

I am all for geoengineering. That's why I am on this site.

I would like to see everyone go out and geoengineer this spring. Go out and plant something. Go out and plant many somethings. Go plant them out where they will shade a riparian area, or where they will block dessicating winds and foster more lush growth downwind. If you have the property, time, and energy, go plant a food forest, or a woodlot, or some combination of the two. Go regreen a desert, or reverse slow desertification through your plantings.

We have been geoengineering since we discovered that the seeds in the food we eat could be planted to grow more food, and since our semi-domesticated goats, along with our wooden plows, caused the first anthropogenic desertification. I say it's high time we fix things, and permaculture has a few things to say about how.

So let's plant trees. Let's start biorock-based artificial reefs to cause the mineral deposition of carbon out of the oceans and into mineral form, and let's cause a coral renaissance at the same time. Let's use those building blocks to engineer new great swathes of sea grasses and mangrove swamps, to draw down carbon and to boost ocean life at the very lowest trophic levels, to spur the revitalisation of ocean ecosystems as a whole.

Let's stop trying to use fear to goad or to stymie. Geoengineering is just a word. Understanding the topics involved will help us to make better-informed decisions about the different shapes it can take, and the positive things we can embrace in it.

Conspiracy is a fairly useless state of being. Let's discard it, along with all other identity labels, and try to get something constructive accomplished instead.

Go plant a tree.

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

J Davis

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Chris,

Ref: go plant a tree

Could not agree more, have been doing alot of that. Also agree that natural methods are way better than srm techniques.

Ref: would love to see more on exhibit b

https://web.archive.org/web/20130501102145/http://www.aquiess.com:80/

Thanks again for engaging in dialogue.

Tyler Ludens

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J Davis wrote:

Exhibit A - for profit company providing raw materials to the airlines which are dispersing, now: http://weathermodification.com/

I do not see on that website where the company is using the airlines to disperse their cloud seeding products.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/science-officially-debunks-chemtrails-conspiracy-live-180960139/

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J Davis

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I suppose that word should be airplanes rather than airlines.

SRM is conducted by airplanes spraying aerosols into the atmosphere. This company provides equipment and raw materials towards this end.

http://weathermodification.com/cloud-seeding-aerial.php

And the have their own fleet of for hire as well - http://weathermodification.com/aircraft.php

Whether airlines are mixing toxic gick into their fuel is an unknown and I didnt mean to imply that was occuring.

Tyler Ludens

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Thank you for clarifying!

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J Davis

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Tyler Ludens wrote:

J Davis wrote:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/science-officially-debunks-chemtrails-conspiracy-live-180960139/

As for the debunking, it's a bit lightweight I'd say. There would have been all sorts of public denials over Oak Ridge's activities while real activities were happening as well.

Here is a document on an environmental threat monitoring group detailing 50 years of experimenting with weather modification
http://www.etcgroup.org/files/PDFs/GeoMap-References.pdf

And here is a fairly recent senate bill detailing the coordination of "activities"

https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/517

Reported to Senate with amendment(s) (12/08/2005)
Weather Modification Research and Development Policy Authorization Act of 2005 - (Sec. 4) Directs the Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy to establish a Weather Modification Subcommittee to coordinate a national research program on weather modification. Requires the Subcommittee to include representatives from: (1) the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA); (2) the National Science Foundation (NSF); and (3) the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA). Provides for a representative from NOAA and a representative from NSF to serve together as co-chairs of such Subcommittee.
Requires the Director to develop and submit a plan for coordinated federal activities under the program, which shall: (1) for a ten-year period, establish the goals and priorities for federal research that most effectively advances scientific understanding of weather modification; (2) describe specific activities required to achieve such goals and priorities, including funding of competitive research grants, training and support for scientists, and participation in international research efforts; (3) identify and address, as appropriate, relevant programs and activities of the federal agencies and departments that would contribute to the program; (4) consider and use, as appropriate, reports and studies conducted by federal agencies and departments, and other expert scientific bodies, including the National Research Council report on Critical Issues in Weather Modification Research; (5) make recommendations for the coordination of program activities with weather modification activities of other national and international organizations; (6) incorporate recommendations from the Weather Modification Research Advisory Board; and (7) estimate federal funding for research activities to be conducted under the program.
Specifies activities related to weather modification that may be included under the program, including: (1) interdisciplinary research and coordination of research and activities to improve understanding of processes relating to weather modification, including cloud modeling, cloud seeding, improving forecast and decision-making technologies, related severe weather research, and potential adverse affects of weather modification; (2) development, through partnerships among federal agencies, states, and academic institutions, of new technologies and approaches for weather modification; and (3) scholarships and educational opportunities that encourage an interdisciplinary approach to weather modification.
Requires the Director to prepare and submit to the President and Congress annual reports on the activities conducted pursuant to this Act respecting the Weather Modification Subcommittee, including: (1) a summary of the achievements of federal weather modification research; (2) an analysis of the progress made toward achieving the goals and objectives of the plan; (3) a copy or summary of the plan and any changes made to it; (4) a summary of agency budgets for weather modification activities; (5) any recommendations regarding additional action or legislation that may be required to assist in achieving the purposes of this Act; (6) a description of the relationship between research conducted on weather modification and research conducted pursuant to the Global Change Research Act of 1990, as well as research on weather forecasting and prediction; and (7) a description of any potential adverse consequences on life, property, or water resource availability from weather modification efforts, and any suggested means of mitigating or reducing such consequences if such efforts are undertaken.
(Sec. 5) Establishes in the Office of Science and Technology Policy the Weather Modification Research Advisory Board to: (1) make recommendations to the Weather Modification Subcommittee on matters related to weather modification; and (2) advise such Subcommittee on the research and development, studies, and investigations with respect to potential uses of technologies and observation systems for weather modification research and assessments and evaluations of the efficacy of weather modification, both purposeful, (including cloud-seeding operations) and inadvertent (including downwind effects and anthropogenic effects).
(Sec. 6) Instructs U.S. departments and agencies and any other public or private agencies and institutions that receive research funds from the United States related to weather modification to give full support and cooperation to the Weather Modification Subcommittee.

Chris Kott

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One issue some may be having with the claims made here is that, in the face of evidence to the contrary, the answers given match the type typically used by conspiracy theorists. If any evidence that contradicts your point must, in some way, be either flawed or tainted by the conspiracy, we've just sealed the argument in it's own echo chamber.

The document you pasted doesn't really say much. Of course the government is interested in data acquisition, cloud modelling, and increased forecasting ability. Cloud seeding is a logical extension to that end, and I am sure you didn't miss the part right after that, where they talk about figuring out unintended consequences.

I have no doubt that, if damage caused by weather events could be managed, that every tool available would be used. What's more, if rain could be brought to a California dying of drought, I am sure that option would be explored. I am likewise sure that, if it were possible that it would just cause a drought inland, where the crops were reliant on rain, that nobody would mess with it.

In the end, it can't really do much more than make the moisture already in the atmosphere drop earlier than it would have. Cloud seeding is a tool of limited scope and use, and really not worthy of such worry-mongering.

So the United Nations says that Geoengineering is inevitable. Great. Maybe it's because we've been doing it unintentionally for so long, but that doesn't surprise me.

Why don't we focus on the types of activities that can be explored and enacted on the grassroots level to geoengineer our climate for resilience? Moderating climactic extremes to limit biosphere damage can be as easy as building a stacked-rock airwell, planting hardy mulch-dropping hyperaccumulators and nitrogen-fixing bacteria hosts, or texturing the land and putting hardy stuff on the peaks and more delicate stuff in the valleys.

And who knows? Someone, somewhere and somewhen, will probably start pumping excess water vapour into the atmosphere, just to bring it down as rain. At that point, we will probably appreciate any data that comes from government research into cloud seeding and its unintended consequences.

J Davis wrote:As for the debunking, it's a bit lightweight I'd say. There would have been all sorts of public denials over Oak Ridge's activities while real activities were happening as well.

I'm sorry, did you just criticise the Smithsonian Magazine for being light on content? Could you perhaps point us towards the venerable, decades-old publication crammed with data that supports your position?

-CK

Tyler Ludens

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The study:

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/8/084011

"Abstract

Nearly 17% of people in an international survey said they believed the existence of a secret large-scale atmospheric program (SLAP) to be true or partly true. SLAP is commonly referred to as 'chemtrails' or 'covert geoengineering', and has led to a number of websites purported to show evidence of widespread chemical spraying linked to negative impacts on human health and the environment. To address these claims, we surveyed two groups of experts—atmospheric chemists with expertize in condensation trails and geochemists working on atmospheric deposition of dust and pollution—to scientifically evaluate for the first time the claims of SLAP theorists. Results show that 76 of the 77 scientists (98.7%) that took part in this study said they had not encountered evidence of a SLAP, and that the data cited as evidence could be explained through other factors, including well-understood physics and chemistry associated with aircraft contrails and atmospheric aerosols. Our goal is not to sway those already convinced that there is a secret, large-scale spraying program—who often reject counter-evidence as further proof of their theories—but rather to establish a source of objective science that can inform public discourse."

Idle dreamer

J Davis

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Tyler,

Did you take a moment to look at this one?

http://www.etcgroup.org/files/PDFs/GeoMap-References.pdf

50 years of documented, planned, funded, coordinated weather experiments.

I am not sure how this is congruent with their conclusion unless they are simply under national security secrecy obligations (such as the quote above from oak ridge).

Or a more recent example from the E.U.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10874230/Jean-Claude-Juncker-profile-When-it-becomes-serious-you-have-to-lie.html

Chris Kott

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Well that's a SLAP in the face to conspiracy theorists.

I guess the condensation trails were really just that, and no more harmful than exhaling my warm breath into cold winter air. I wonder if the physics behind the two might be similar? Hmmm...

-CK

Chris Kott

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And most of what I read there concerns biomass pyrolysis for production of biochar and carbon capture and sequestration, by both chemical and biological means.

-CK

Timothy Markus

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Here's my favourite example of geoengineering:

My mom was born in a place that was underwater only a few hundred years before.

A piece of land is worth as much as the person farming it.
-Le Livre du Colon, 1902

Tyler Ludens

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J Davis wrote:

50 years of documented, planned, funded, coordinated weather experiments.

I am not sure how this is congruent with their conclusion unless they are simply under national security secrecy obligations (such as the quote above from oak ridge).

I think we're talking about two different things. You mention chemtrails and then reference cloud-seeding. The study was in reference to chemtrails, not cloud-seeding.

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J Davis

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Tyler Ludens wrote:

J Davis wrote:
I think we're talking about two different things. You mention chemtrails and then reference cloud-seeding. The study was in reference to chemtrails, not cloud-seeding.

I threw in the word chemtrails as one of many monickers used to describe airplanes spewing toxic gick into our air which lands in our soil. I frankly don't care what you call it. I don't want airplanes spewing toxic gick into the air which lands in our soil.

Cloud seeding technology sprays what? What impact does that have on the soil? Why are we still debating terminology instead of focusing on clearly pertinent issues to the permies community?

Chris Kott

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Because you're making unfounded conclusions.

If anything were being put into the atmosphere, unless it stayed there, it would come down on the ground. The studies mentioned above that cite the findings of scientists taking dust and sediment samples have found no such thing. So whether by airlines, or as a result of cloud seeding, no mysterious substances in any detectible quantity are being added to the atmosphere.

This is less of an issue than the carbon dioxide put into the atmosphere by the whole air transportation industry, which is a real, not fictional, concern.

There are enough real issues to be concerned with. Why invent fictional ones?

-CK

Nick Kitchener

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Aluminum Oxide (and Aluminum coated fiberglass) immediately comes to mind as the predominant chemical proposed specifically for climate modification on the theory that it's high reflectivity would simulate the reflective nature of natural cloud cover. This has an alkaline effect on the soil.

There have been atmospheric releases of Zinc Cadmium Sulfide in the past, but they have been used as part of experiments on populations to investigate things like nuclear fallout.

Serratia marcescens and Bacillus globigii are two biologicals that come to mind, but again they were used in biological warfare fallout experiments on civilian populations, not geoengineering.

As far as toxic gick goes in relation to geoengineering, they fall into two main categories. Climate modification and weather modification.
Of example the Aluminum oxide is typically used as a solar reflector intended to reduce incoming solar radiation. It is a climate modification chemical.
Aluminum coated fiberglass is a weather modification chemical and is primarily used for its electrical properties, aiding the application of electric fields in the atmosphere to guide and modulate weather systems (which are electrical systems themselves).

Trace Oswald

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J Davis wrote:It is damaging to permie credibility to be on the "vigorous denier and dismisser" side of this issue which "if true" would have massive implications to soil, self-reliance, and food production worldwide.

without having to deal with childish non-communication techniques like labels and bigfoot sighting comparisons...

Wouldn't it be just as "damaging to permie credibility" to deny any conspiracy theory "if true"? It doesn't seem like be wrong about this issue would be more damaging to permie credibility about any other issue. Especially since "permie credibility" can't really exist, as "permie" consists of a wide range of people that have varying ideas about any given subject.

So far, I haven't seen any evidence that this is any more valid than bigfoot sightings. There are many people that believe bigfoot exists, and have evidence that support their beliefs, just as people believe that 9/11 was created by our own government, and on and on and on... Calling every other conspiracy theory childish doesn't make the one you believe any more true. It is true or it isn't, regardless of anyone's emotional attachment to it.

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Tyler Ludens

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Ok, I think I understand. Yes, airplanes are and have been dumping toxic gick into the air. Airplanes sometimes even dump fuel in emergency landing situations. Unless you live fairly close to an airport, this won't probably be an issue. Even if airplanes are spraying other toxic gick into the atmosphere, what should permies do about it? We're probably already aware of the vast amount of toxic gick floating around the world and are trying hard to make our soils as alive as possible to capture and bind up as many gicks as possible. Can you make some additional suggestions about actions permies should be taking to protect from aerial gick?

I try to avoid worrying about stuff I have no control over. I have enough really serious immediate worries in my own life that I can't personally expend much worry about unlikely hazards like secret geo-engineering projects. But I am interested in solutions to likely (not improbable) toxic gick hazards.

Just worrying about shit is utterly useless. Let's talk about solutions we can implement in our own lives.

Idle dreamer

Chris Kott

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I agree, Tyler. What does one call a person who brings up problems, but never solutions?

In quantities and particulate sizes that would remain aloft for any amount of time, I think the best defense would be to have voracious living soil. I don't care what it is, if you've got soil that's healthy enough, barring deliberate poisoning, it's going to be able to sequester and/or break down anything you throw at it, given time.

This is also useful for anything else, including more likely hydrocarbon pollution, and microplastics.

The slightly longer-term action we could take is basically anything that helps draw down carbon dioxide from the atmosphere or out of the oceans, as if we accomplish that, there won't be a need for blocking out the sun. So again, plant stuff. Lots of stuff. And see if your neighbours are into it, too.

We could also start a larger conversation about the sustainability of air travel, and about how to transition towards heavy-lift airships, like 1000 tonne plus, to get away from airplanes and sea freight, and perhaps to replace infrastructure-heavy modes of travel and freight such as trucking, and maybe even rail, although that's not even hard to imagine, if you compare North america's state of rail to that of Europe's, or even the rail that Europe is trying to replace (they're replacing stuff that beats Canadian and american trains hands-down; maybe we should buy their cast-offs?)

-CK

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Once carbon based life forms believe the lie that carbon is evil, they're going to do all sorts of crazy nonsense! (lol)

I love the most simple way to improve the Earth... plant plant plant.

Tyler Ludens

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I love the idea of a permaculture future with airships!

Idle dreamer

Tyler Ludens

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Greg Mamishian wrote:Once carbon based life forms believe the lie that carbon is evil, they're going to do all sorts of crazy nonsense! (lol)

I'm pretty sure nobody we would take seriously is saying that carbon is evil! :p

Idle dreamer

Greg Mamishian

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Chris Kott wrote:Let's stop trying to use fear to goad or to stymie.

I totally agree, Chris.
Fear is the lowest form of motivation because it sanctions people to do all sorts of crazy things.

Different decade... same fear.

Chris Kott

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Thank you, Greg, for illustrating how reducing an idea to it's simplest form can be completely obfuscating.

We are composed of over 70% water. I suppose next you'll tell me that drowning is some great global conspiracy, too?

-CK

J Davis

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Ref problems without solutions...

I asked in opening post if we could stop childish non communication techniques and label throwing now that the cat was out of the bag and the planned and ongoing operations were being admitted by the u.n.

questions were asked, I provided credible, linked proof that activities are not imaginary, unfunded, or uncoordinated. They are historical facts and ongoing and in all likelihood (per the u.n.) the activities are only going to increase.

I repeat my ask with civility..when someone asks about dying trees or strange fungal blooms..that the potential solutions discussed may include chelation or bioremediation techniques for removing heavy metals without being met with bigfoot sighting accusations...

I guess that's too big an ask..

Greg Mamishian

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posted 6 years ago

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Tyler Ludens wrote:

Greg Mamishian wrote:Once carbon based life forms believe the lie that carbon is evil, they're going to do all sorts of crazy nonsense! (lol)

I'm pretty sure nobody we would take seriously is saying that carbon is evil! :p

I sure don't.
In my opinion, carbon footprint, carbon credits, and greenhouse gasses are all just fear driven nonsense.

Greg Mamishian

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Chris Kott wrote:Thank you, Greg, for illustrating how reducing an idea to it's simplest form can be completely obfuscating.

It's actually clarifying to see how the same fear can endure for generations.

We are composed of over 70% water. I suppose next you'll tell me that drowning is some great global conspiracy, too?

-CK

Not at all.
The same fear lasting for decades can't be a conspiracy when a majority of people choose to believe it.

Tyler Ludens

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J Davis wrote:
I repeat my ask with civility..when someone asks about dying trees or strange fungal blooms..that the potential solutions discussed may include chelation or bioremediation techniques for removing heavy metals without being met with bigfoot sighting accusations...

I guess that's too big an ask..

Are dying trees and strange fungal blooms due to heavy metals?

Idle dreamer

Chris Kott

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J Davis wrote:Ref problems without solutions...

I asked in opening post if we could stop childish non communication techniques and label throwing now that the cat was out of the bag and the planned and ongoing operations were being admitted by the u.n.

questions were asked, I provided credible, linked proof that activities are not imaginary, unfunded, or uncoordinated. They are historical facts and ongoing and in all likelihood (per the u.n.) the activities are only going to increase.

I repeat my ask with civility..when someone asks about dying trees or strange fungal blooms..that the potential solutions discussed may include chelation or bioremediation techniques for removing heavy metals without being met with bigfoot sighting accusations...

I guess that's too big an ask..

Maybe if there was more specificity. For now, I have yet to hear a coherent concern beyond that what they spray into the air will come down on our soil and toxify it, or that they will fuck with rainfall.

The first is already happening as a result of aerosolised pollutants coming down in the rain.

The second is possible, in at least a limited fashion, but the evidence given clearly indicates there's concern in government regarding unintended consequences. While I don't advocate abject trust, I am more inclined to believe they will fail through incompetence, because malice and a coverup on the scale you're suggesting takes the kind of coordination of talent and effort you won't find in the civil service.

So if there are any specific concerns we can address, I know there's nothing we'd all rather do.

But honestly, aside from getting involved in government and working for change from the inside, the answer on a grassroots level will probably be fungal slurries.

-CK

Dustin Rhodes

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I hesitate to jump in here, so that probably means I shouldn't...but I never listen to myself.

I think the dichotomy here is that we all want to make the world a better place, the question is "how?" and "at what cost?".

a common Permaculture mindset is that it is best practices to promote and increase the health of the environment/planet through:

The action of individuals and that, as more individuals act, collectively, we see change overall
AND
The best/healthiest way to improve the environment are the natural processes already in place in nature(CO2 exchange and transpiration in plants, nitrogen and water cycles, mycoremediation, etc)

The corporate/governmental action model, paired with a technological/man-made remediation approach that these articles espouse flies in the face of the prior philosophy. That it uses unproven or untested methods that have known and unknown risks is even more difficult to swallow. I'm not saying it's morally wrong or that it won't work, it's just not some people's desired and supported strategy, for valid reasons.

Personally, I believe a change that:

individuals can do on their own,
with minimal expense,
using items on hand,
and can be done NOW

is a more philosophically, fiscally, politically, and environmentally tenable solution than: "maybe a corporation/organization/government will get around to it someday, AND do it without bankrupting and/or poisoning the country."

Growing on my small acre in SW USA; Fruit/Nut trees w/ annuals, Chickens, lamb, pigs; rabbits and in-laws onto property soon.
Long term goal - chairmaker, luthier, and stay-at-home farm dad. Check out my music! https://www.youtube.com/@Dustyandtheroadrunners

Tyler Ludens

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posted 6 years ago

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J Davis wrote:

I repeat my ask with civility..when someone asks about dying trees or strange fungal blooms..that the potential solutions discussed may include chelation or bioremediation techniques for removing heavy metals without being met with bigfoot sighting accusations...

I guess that's too big an ask..

I need to point out that you used the word "chemtrails," which is widely accepted as a theory about on the same level as Bigfoot (I slightly believe in Bigfoot, by the way, just not in most Bigfoot sightings).

J Davis wrote:Regular posters on this site regularly lump weather modification, geoengineering, chemtrails, and solar radiation management with right wing conspiracy theories

If you don't want people to equate what you want to discuss with conspiracy theories, you might want to avoid using terms which are popularly associated with conspiracy theories.

Idle dreamer

Greg Martin

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The idea of cutting the level of sunlight to the Earth seems like such a terrible one. Carbon farming seems like the only sane way to go to me. Of course, carbon farming is geo engineering, including "engineering" the soil with heavy inclusions of biochar. On Sunday I made about a cubic yard of biochar in 4 hours which sequestered the equivalent of about 750 lbs of carbon dioxide which will be locked up in my soil for 100s to 1000s of years. Due to the accelerated building of soil that biochar will support, that number can be multiplied. I love that long after me and my house have rotted away, my biochar will continue to be supporting life in the soil.

Of course carbon is not evil, but likewise of course a nutrient can also act as a pollutant if misplaced....examples abound, whether it's higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere blocking IR radiation to space or nutrients running down rivers and killing sections of the ocean. I love how biochar can address both those problems. After all, a big part of permaculture is putting resources to work in the right places rather than having them become problems in the wrong places.

Permaculture...picking the lock back to Eden since 1978.
Pics of my Forest Garden

Greg Mamishian

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Dustin Rhodes wrote:I think the dichotomy here is that we all want to make the world a better place, the question is "how?" and "at what cost?".

My approach is to make my world a better place.

Personally, I believe a change that:

individuals can do on their own,
with minimal expense,
using items on hand,
and can be done NOW

Perfect.

You just described how to do it.

"maybe a corporation/organization/government will get around to it someday, AND do it without bankrupting and/or poisoning the country."

In my opinion it's foolish to expect the government to solve a problem when it is a problem.

J Davis

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So, getting excited about the kickstarter. Book looks awesome.

Its a shame Paul is such a conspiracy theorist. He really should have said "so called bad guys" and that reference to the light bulb cartel is very politically incorrect.

Seriously, permies is as much a reaction to real world conspiracies as it is a return to indigenous principles. Permies reject big AG, big pharma, and generally would rather have their life savings in seed, soil, and skills rather than any debt based currency which may lose its value any day now. Do you not acknowledge that the wide world would see your aversion to these things as conspiratorial?

To believe in conspiracy theory is to believe simply that in order to achieve an agenda, some folks keep it secret for a while. Thats it. That's also called world history.

Ok, i give the cider press back to those who havent researched the proposed worldwide program of cloudseeding with aluminum and heavy metals but are totally sure there is no risk to our soil and no relevance to community food production capacity. Nothing to see here..got it.

Gonna go urigate my wood chips and visit a kickstarter site now.

Tyler Ludens

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J Davis wrote: Permies reject big AG, big pharma, and generally would rather have their life savings in seed, soil, and skills rather than any debt based currency which may lose its value any day now.

Nope. I buy (most of) my food at the grocery store, depend for my life on medications from big pharma, and keep my $ in the bank.

So am I not a permie?

Idle dreamer

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