How to deal with a steep gravel driveway with challenging ruts and fun surprises

What I have is a very long winding steep incline steep decline loose gravel driveway on top of hard-packed red clay.

There are various washouts and ruts though there are a few culverts already installed.

I've been doing a little research and what it looks like people do is just use a box grader to fix these ruts. Sure, it'd be great to have the driveway a little less extreme but, no ruts would at least make it passable.

ive found it necessary to run a box blade or something over it every once in a while. I'm not all that far where you are and the soil compositions are probably very similar if not the same. new to me all my neighbors call the driveway dirt , churt, around here and it forms pretty good base but has to be dressed now and then.

I have a rather steep drive in the Ozarks that had been neglected for about 30 years before I started rebuilding it. I managed with a box blade and a front end loader. I don't live on site but hope to retire there. So I would have a week or 2 to work and then come back in a few months to see how things are holding up. My neighbor  started his homestead in the 70s and told me countless times during my efforts to build and then rebuild my road that I really need to be on site to watch the water during a large rain event. I have been on my land during storms that dropped as much as 6 inches of rain over a 24 to 36 hour periods. I thought I had a good idea of where the water wanted to go and installed what I thought was an excess of culverts, water bars  and sloping the road as best I could to get the water off the roadway as quickly as possible. My road held up just fine for about 2 years.
I happened to be at my cabin last year  for a storm that dropped 2 1/2 inches of rain in just under 1 hour.  All I can say is WOW!!! I was astounded by the volume of water that came down my hill. Places that I had never seen moving water and had no evidence of moving water in the past had streams large enough to clear leaves, branches and fist size rocks. What I thought was a well designed and graded driveway had nearly all of the crushed limestone washed off the entire length of the drive.
So I will pass along some very good advise I received, You really need to be on site during a large storm. Get out there and play in the rain to get an idea of how the water wants to move.  I have only been maintaining my drive for about 12 years but for me I think it takes less money and time to over build, than to rebuild after every storm. The catch is I really did have to be there and see for myself to see what I was trying to control/redirect.

Do you have a tractor or you are using a shovel to clear the path?

Chad,

I agree with everything Marty said.  For my part, I would suggest getting some crushed limestone on that driveway and really pack it in.  My driveway is only 450' long, but it got started on a pure limestone dust bed.  Trucks eventually worked that in and then we added a 50:50 dust:3/4" gravel a couple of times.  The dust will really pack in better than loose gravel and while you will still have some erosion, this should be much better than at present.

I would say a box blade would be a very good investment, but considering the length you have, a land plane might be the better option.  The land plane is a one-trick-pony that only grades roadways, but it has a very easy learning curve and it does that job very, very well.  Also, they excel at long runs like your driveway.

In time, the limestone will turn to a very hard surface and though it will rut from time to time, a box blade or land plane can work that out.

Good luck!

Eric

The Permaculture principle here is "Improve your land in order of greatest permanence."  

What does this mean?  Dig your swales and earthworks before you plant your trees . . . you want to put in the physical landscape that will last for decades/centuries BEFORE you plant the biological stuff that will last for years.

In applying this to your steep driveway, I would think that before you turn your attention on grading and surface fixes, you'll need to give serious attention to they hydrology of your site.  Water run-off appears to be the biggest problem, so until you engineer drainage and such, you'll constantly find your roadway washing out.

The second permie phrase that comes to mind is "The problem is the solution".  All that water!  It looks like an opportunity if you can channel it in some meaningful way to provide the moisture that feeds an orchard or pond.  

I really wish I had enough land to implement some of Marcos more ambitious stacking suggestions.

In reality the amount of water can vary so greatly and I only have a few acres and hundreds of acres up hill from me. The best stacking function I could come up with was building gravel catchments wherever I had room. With hopes of being able to reuse some of the gravel that is bound to get washed off.

That one pic almost looks like a rivulet running right through your road. Maybe a culvert pipe there (hopefully big enough to handle the heavy rains) w/ crushed limestone over top would help those areas that are very prone to washing out. Also, on the downhill side maybe a dam of some kind (earth, wood, stone, etc) to try and catch any gravel that might still wash away

Storms are only getting bigger! We just had twice September's "Average" rainfall in 3 days, so I get how the exceptional storms can blow away the best plans!

Sooo... I agree with many of the above suggestions and you may be able to plan for "slightly" above average while waiting to see what the extremes look like. Think Lancaster's efforts in Tuscon where he started high in the watershed building lots of small water diversion/infiltration potholes with plants to slow water where it fell?

I'm assuming you've done the obvious of considering if there's a better place for the road? Of course it might only look like a better place until the first exceptional storm goes through, but a more gradual slope makes a big difference. I'm often pushing carts up and down some of our slopes, so I really notice how much difference a few degrees makes. We needed a new "road" from a field area down into a forested area and had to bring in rocky fill. A friend was helping and was discussing it with Hubby and I came along and said, "the bottom of the slope needs to be "here" - 55 ft from where they were standing and at least 25 feet from where they thought the slope would end. They looked at me as it I was crazy, but they did it. If my garden cart has a heavy load on it, I *still* struggle to get to the top! Wheel-chair ramps aren't supposed to have more than a 10% grade and the resulting road is certainly a higher grade than that, but I can make it with most loads with only wheels to assist rather than fossil fuels which I try to reserve for when they're necessary.

Assuming you need some of it fixed "now" while you start working on the big-picture stuff, I read about someone getting a bunch of cheap/free chain-link fencing and laying it down as a road surface which helped to keep the rock in place and gave good traction. Just watch for it wearing out, but if you aren't expecting to drive on it 10 time/day, that might be a temporary solution. Your road may be too twisty-turny for that from the picture.

What what an amazing site this is. More on that at the end.

I've been on the land for a bit and I've watched a little bit we we actually got to experience some rain firsthand on the driveway and so I'm pretty familiar with what's going on with the driveway.  By no means does this mean that I know where the water is going or where it's even coming from so I will figure that out. Hopefully I can capture some of that water as long as it's not a detriment to anything downstream.

I have about a five acre gentle slope to the South half covered in trees and brush and half woods and open grass. I think if I can do some swales or something I can greatly improve the vegetation in the area while improving the forest's ability to retain water.

I plan on putting together a forestry plan with the county so I'm sure they'll give me any information I need on how I can improve or protect land appropriately. For now it's just ideas and creativity.

However the first thing I'm going to do is put it a small camping area so that I can observe all of the trees and the land so we can figure out how best to use the area and how best to allow the land to heal and thrive.

You guys and gals rock. I wish I could archive this entire site to my hard drive. More I have the combined experiences of yours.

I admit I was originally just coming in here wondering geez do I need an excavator or do I need a box grader?

Marco Banks wrote:The Permaculture principle here is "Improve your land in order of greatest permanence."  

What does this mean?  Dig your swales and earthworks before you plant your trees . . . you want to put in the physical landscape that will last for decades/centuries BEFORE you plant the biological stuff that will last for years.

In applying this to your steep driveway, I would think that before you turn your attention on grading and surface fixes, you'll need to give serious attention to they hydrology of your site.  Water run-off appears to be the biggest problem, so until you engineer drainage and such, you'll constantly find your roadway washing out.

The second permie phrase that comes to mind is "The problem is the solution".  All that water!  It looks like an opportunity if you can channel it in some meaningful way to provide the moisture that feeds an orchard or pond.  

Oh you and I are definitely on the same page. I want to fix the land so that it stays as permanent as can be. I want to stop the erosions and protect the resources. Basically do my part to balance entropy by preventing it where it's not helpful.

I look forward to leaving the city and living with my land. We had a little disagreement about my rude entry but, I think we're chill again.

I can't wait to bring this big pond to life!

As a road builder here are some questions and a web site that will give you some background information
bush track design

How long is your road?
When you say steep, what is the slope you are talking about?

The best equipment for  road construction is a grader and a heavy roller.

John C Daley wrote:As a road builder here are some questions and a web site that will give you some background information
bush track design

How long is your road?
When you say steep, what is the slope you are talking about?

The best equipment for  road construction is a grader and a heavy roller.

I haven't measured either but if guess approx 2500 ft long varying degrees of up and down with the steepest around 30 degrees.

I was thinking the same thing. I might try doing it with a box blade grader behind my truck and renting a roller.

Thats more than a drive.
Thats a project, I have a box grader, I would not bother using it.

Its going to take a lot of time and maybe a lot of money.

John C Daley wrote:Thats more than a drive.
Thats a project, I have a box grader, I would not bother using it.

Its going to take a lot of time and maybe a lot of money.

Do you think one of the larger box blades or one of the other draggle tools might work? Maybe a powered grader?

Otherwise, I'm waiting on an estimate from an earth mover guy.

Too bad though. I'd love to be able to maintain my driveway myself.

Chad Kovac wrote:

Too bad though. I'd love to be able to maintain my driveway myself.

Chad there's a big difference between "fixing a badly damaged driveway" and "maintaining" that repaired drive! You may need help getting this one working, but if you do all that rainwater management suggested, make sure you've got properly sized culverts where needed (the former owners of two bits of  land we bought failed and we've got to decide how we're going to fix the problem soon), and then watch for trouble and fix it early, you may be able to maintain the drive for decades with basic tools.

We have gravel that meets hardtop at the end of our drive and it was developing potholes last winter. I brought over buckets of "fines" from our gravel heap, and used a flat plated pounding tool Hubby had bought and the potholes went from "getting worse daily" to "stable ever since". It took 4 more buckets than I thought it would, but I just kept adding gravel and pounding it until it looked "just right". Hubby actually bought a small vibrator compactor and that would have been a great tool to use, but he was preoccupied and it out-weighs me (well, maybe not quite, but close enough) so I used woman power and it worked well enough. That encouraged me to do a little water redirection elsewhere and I was pleased with those results also. The key to successful maintenance is that old saying - a stitch in time, saves nine - in my books!

Chad
My driveway is about 500 ft long with a small circle around my cabin, so may be 600 ft total. In 2009 I got an estimate for $11000.  That included 3 small culverts and one larger crossing requiring  2 lengths of  3 ft wide culverts.  My thought was  $11000 I could get a used tractor and do the work myself. Well the tractor with attachments plus  gravel and culverts I have around 15K in to my driveway not counting my time.  Lots of time! The up side is I have become very good with my tractor.  Now having said that the neighbor I spoke of early has tractor but is just to afraid to use it. I cant blame him. Steep hills plus uneven ground and loose dirt and rocks all add up to what can be VERY dangerous.  All things to consider when your getting your estimate.  

You mentioned using a box scraper attached to your truck.  I don't think my truck is geared any where near low enough to be effective at pulling the rocks and leveling in the first stages of work. The tractor in low 4x4 first gear might go 1 mile an hour at the most. That works well for pulling rocks free without to much bouncing or spinning tires.  I think your idea might work to maintain my road but haven't tried it.  

Proper road graders have the power, and the ability to create roads.
With the correct material added and compacted with the roller it will last for years.
You can then maintain the drains, etc afterwards.
One problem to think about is that smooth drives encourage speeding vehicles which then creates pot holes.
I enforce 30kph on my drive, and I place old tyres on it to narrow the access.

Yeah. I'm able to maintain it but, waiting for an estimate from a guy who does this for a living so I don't make matters worse or kill myself trying to save some money.

That's a good tip on the end of the driveway. I'm also meeting blacktop with gravel. I'll mention that to the driveway guy.

Gravel done.

Eric Hanson wrote:Chad,

My driveway is only 450' long, but it got started on a pure limestone dust bed. Trucks eventually worked that in and then we added a 50:50 dust:3/4" gravel a couple of times.  The dust will really pack in better than loose gravel

Eric

We have been starting a new driveway on freshly cleared woods down a ridge line. I have done So much research on driveway building online and watching YouTube videos and also helping random people out hauling them gravel since I got a dump truck to haul our own rock to save money. Anyway I've seen terrible driveway choices when it comes to where they put them. Putting a driveway in a valley that someone bulldozed threw a hill is dumb dumb dumb all the water flows directly into that valley. And in turn costs lots of money in regraveling your drive. This specific spot I helped a guy with 3 different times with gravel that he wanted "the crushed 3/4" and down limestone" and it washed out every winter into spring. I finally talked him into the bigger limestone (3in bedding limestone) and it has held up way better then the small stuff. He complained about how big it was and driving on it was rough and walking on it was even worse but it held up threw that winter and spring. So it worked for that bad spot he had. But as for the new driveway were building, we have been using nothing but the 3in bedding stone and every winter our base is just getting harder and harder as that 3in stone smashes into the ground when it expands and contracts during winter. And as it smashes in the rocks fit like puzzle pieces locking together creating a "rock hard base" pun intended. We dont even plan to put any other size rock down until our base is packed to the point where it isnt sinking anymore. Currently we have about 5-6 inch thick driveway base made with 3inch bedding stone. And we done this with just the c50 dump truck and 45hp tractor with front loader, box blade, and landscape rake to smoothly spread this big of rock out. But we only packed it with the next load of gravel in the truck which was about 20,000-24,000 lbs and 2 years of winters' expansion and contraction, and us driving on it. Our driveway seems great. Maybe once were done with the length (gonna take some time due to $$$) but once we get the whole thing 3inch bedding stoned, we will start bringing in the next layer which will be 1 3/4" x 1" clean gravel at about 2-3" thick and then maybe after that layer just 1"and down (driveway pack) at about 2" thick and call it the best driveway around. But obviously that cost alot of money paying someone to do that for you and let alone doing it yourself when your the one hauling and spreading it. But you get to do it how you want it, and your also the only one to complain about it too lol. But I think the expense of doing a driveway the correct way is why most people go the cheaper route and just go straight to the driveway pack and it just sinks and sinks and sinks. And in turn your buying more and more gravel. And I think some rock haulers do it this way as a form of "job security" knowing that they'll be calling me after next spring for another load and so on and so forth. Which is why I got the wild hair to buy my own truck to haul my own gravel. But I havnt joined the haulers job security way of life when hauling for others. I give them the exact description I just laid out here on how I have researched driveway building.

almost all of the driveways ive seen built here in hilly east tn are done with small dozers d3 or d4 and then dump  trucks bring in either crushed rock or chert or both and grade it out with dozer. there is a new drive less than a mile from me that probably goes from about 100' elevation to 1000' and im not sure how long it is but that's how they did it. started with chainsaws and ended with crushed rock. a couple weeks ago we saw concrete trucks going in so it must have been done pretty well.

Project complete.



Here's my "valley" where I'll be bringing in the river rocks. I know most of this will wash away in this specific spot. It's about 5 feet long where I stand to lose material. This video is fish eyed.



Water catchment you can peek in these photos is for the garden area, only.

Photos.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2Ru5xcz3V3syKmHz8

I'm also dealing with the washout issue on a steep driveway, though for me it's more of a nuisance than a critical problem. The challenge, as I see it, is somehow breaking the force of the water flowing downhill. I have this notion of sinking a 4x6 treated timber right above the trouble spot, anchored with deep metal pins on the sides that are well out of tire range. It can't stick out too far since I also need to snowblow over top, but even a couple of inches should help. I have seen this done on steep trails, and I think it would work here too.

Is the left side of your driveway there the uphill? If so you need to get a deeper ditch going on that side to keep raging waters contained, or the edge of your driveway will suffer. We plan to rip rap the edge of our driveway in areas that will collect alot of water so the edge doesnt get washed any. And I really hope you put a larger stone base down onto that dirt before the small crushed driveway pack. If not after this winter and spring you will see what I'm talking about, especially if you drive anything heavy down the road during the winter. But for the most part the grading looks pretty good. You didnt make the dozer valley I was describing above and looks to me you are kinda coming down the hill on contour, which is great. But I'm still gonna push the "bigger is better" when building a base for a driveway. It only makes sense when the bigger rock only cost pennies more then the crushed stuff. It's the hauling that's expensive.

Hi Douglas,

Would a culvert help?   Instead of treated lumber, what about concrete or stone?

Watched the videos and you actually do have a good ditch over there, the pic didnt show as good. But one question I do have considering your road is so long, did you put any culverts in to exhaust some of that water running down your ditch? If not your gonna have one heck of a water slide by time that water gets to the bottom it will be running like raging rivers making your ditch twice the size or possible eating into your drive. I would say you probably need about 5 or 6 different culvert diagonally crossing your drive exhausting water that runs into the ditch and send it into your pond that seems to be right next to the lower area. One other thing to consider is your back cut on the hillside that you cut into to create the road. That is pretty steep back cut, over the next few years that steep back cut on the hill is going to erode down into your ditch filling it back in and your gonna have some maintenance to keep up on before more rain comes and pushes that water up onto your driveway. Basically you'll need to harvest eroded dirt out of your ditches until that back cut grades itself to the lay of the newly shaped land. But I'm not saying your driveway project is bad cuz it's not it's pretty good, just adding some helpful tips to make it "solid as a rock". But I whole heartily believe you should have used 3inch bedding stone for that road base due to the terrain it's on. I'm sure with in a year or so you will be getting more rock. The big stuff requires more effort to move it around and that means the erosion would have to be built like a mack truck to move the big rocks. But once those big rocks pack together creating that puzzle like base the water will just run over the top not even eroding anything.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:I'm also dealing with the washout issue on a steep driveway, though for me it's more of a nuisance than a critical problem. The challenge, as I see it, is somehow breaking the force of the water flowing downhill. I have this notion of sinking a 4x6 treated timber right above the trouble spot, anchored with deep metal pins on the sides that are well out of tire range. It can't stick out too far since I also need to snowblow over top, but even a couple of inches should help. I have seen this done on steep trails, and I think it would work here too.

sounds to me your thinking about a gravel swale/detour/ angled speed bump for the water on drive to get it off gravel instead of it running down threw gravel? But the wood laid on the ground sounds like a rotting board to me lol unless your using railroad ties then it's just a slowly rotting board in your drive.

Chad your in Tennessee right? Hope you and family are ok. How did your driveway handle that 17inches of rain you guys got within 24hr period? I'd like to see pictures of your driveway now after that massive rain.

the 17 inches was a very localized storm just about south and a bit west of Nashville . bulk of water concentrated in a valley about 10 miles long.

michael rowald wrote:sounds to me your thinking about a gravel swale/detour/ angled speed bump for the water on drive to get it off gravel instead of it running down threw gravel? But the wood laid on the ground sounds like a rotting board to me lol unless your using railroad ties then it's just a slowly rotting board in your drive.

Apologies, I wasn't very clear. I have a long, steep section of concrete driveway (not installed by me) followed by a section of regular road gravel. When there's a vigorous downpour, the water comes roaring off the concrete and cuts deep channels. That's where I need a breakwater. A 16-foot pressure treated timber would be good for 10 years. I'm not sure what else would be stable enough for vehicle traffic in all seasons. Maybe an old blade from a big road grader?

Edit: It would also direct much-needed moisture to a well established patch of saskatoon berries at the end of my driveway.

Hi,  Your new drive looks great.

If you have a riding mower or tractor, I would get a drag, or land plane to maintain the drive and keep it from having too many potholes. I have family living in TN with a steep graded drive. For water running down the drive I put a concrete ditch with steel grates across the drive at about a 30 degree angle. It acts as a culvert,  and it catches water coming down on the drive and diverts it. The washouts and ruts are no longer a problem. Being there during rain is important with that new drive to determine problem places and get solutions. In some places on the drive we didn't mound it in the center but made the whole drive slope in one direction to run off water in that spot. It stopped the washout just below it.  

That said, I hope your drive holds up and you have few problems.

Yeah concrete on steep drives is a no go from some stuff I've seen just driving by. The water makes it way under the slab of Crete and then the concrete eventually cracks and settles and then heavy equiptment is needed to fix concrete. I've tried moving pieces of slab concrete that I uncovered in my back yard digging and my gosh that's heavy and awkward shaped most of the time cuz of how its broke up. But you could try getting some portland cement mortor and get on your hands and knees with a trowel and make small angled cement diversion "speed bump" on top of your cement slab accordingly to how you want the water to run off. That would be a cheap easy experiment. I think it would be worth a try.  But yeah if that works to get most off rain fall off the way you want then I'd put big 3in bed stone right where concrete stops and get about 10 linear feet of drive made with that big rock to slow water that drops down hill of the diversion "bump". But that's just my thoughts on what your explaining. In the end it's your project so do it how you see fit. But yeah the wood might work but I see that as a bandaid and not a permanent fix.

Douglas, you are talking about a water bar. On hiking trails wood or stone is often used. On roads or places where wheeled vehicles are used it is usually preferred to shape the roadbed itself. You can dig a diagonal channel in the gravel part of your driveway to divert the water.

https://megamanual.geosyntec.com/npsmanual/waterbar.aspx

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:
Edit: It would also direct much-needed moisture to a well established patch of saskatoon berries at the end of my driveway.

how long have you been growing saskatoons(honey berries)? We just started growing some(few different varieties) to see which kind grows best in our climate. I know they are originally from canada but hey why not try.

You can definately do it yourself im working an a whole .6 mile easement to unkept undeveloped land atm. The quotes on laying and leveling have been astronomical like 35k-50k rough estimates. Pricing materials to.. The cost to do it myself came between 3500-5k thats too much equity loss to pay laborers 12$ sqft or more. As for the drainage meet it half way... you dont have to know every nook that it naturally flows because you are terraforming.. you need to identify where you dont want it and intercept and redirect with a french drain style drain.. if it must run across the road.. cut a pass and use heavy metal grating to just drive over. Or several.. you dont want a river if you can avoid it smaller few inch wide grates are better. Go along side the road if you can.. ive even considered digging it very deep an wider to catch a bit of power to heat the road in steep grades for weather by may stick to the solar powered pads i bought. It was a doozey at first my 4x4 couldnt get up as it was without a few hours of me manually filling packing and leveling where anything but a jeep could go an it all turned out swell.. a sledge, shovel and few bags of materials tho would take far to long to do it all that way haha. My dad is a logger so i have access to very heavy offroad logging equipment with blades and such so that cuts my costs down a good bit. I would exhaust every options for paying to maintain and develop tho.. the whole project will cost me under 30k in materials. An the value in equity should be well into 6 digits when shes done.. labor eats equity alive.

Chelsea, I beg to differ.
Culverts made by cutting grooves and laying grates over them, may result in the grate being buried in the road and a wash out occuring.
Nothing beats a pipe under or a design that has a constant crossfall to the low side so that there is never a build up of flowing water.

Erosion occurs when water gets to about 3 feet / second velocity.

Hey,

I studied Road design at University,
and by study I mean I learnt how to follow flow charts on design principles from the Austroads Guidelines, and follow the attack tree of road design.

by attack tree, I mean if this then do this, if not then this. next step calc this and use this value to get the value to put in this. ... continue until you are done.

The design principles are pretty basic and easy to learn, I strongly recommend researching the road design systems of your governments.

In addition, If anyone notices a driveway/ trail built by them on their land being used by other people I strongly recommend ready up on your governments roads act, to prevent potential issues years later.

Regards,
Alex

Here are some pics of our driveway we are building our selves. Now this driveway goes right down the peak of a ridgeline so we really dont need to do much grading work other then drag a box blade down the surface to slightly level things a bit before tailgating the 3inch bedding stone. But as for drainage that's taken care of by the ridgelines' grading to either side. If you look close at the bottom/ where we ran out of rock, the rocks are smashed into the dirt surface really good from the freeze/thaw cycles and us driving on it pressing it in. And once its pressed in like that the water that lands on the rock when it's raining just runs right over the rocks pressed into the dirt. Now some of the smaller gravel that is mixed with the 3inch bedding stone will run off with heavy rain and you can see some of it at the bottom where we ran out of rock. However if we would have put that crushed driveway pack down in this spot it would be gone down hill. Even if we had a heavy roller pack it in, the rain would still move that smaller rock down hill. Now im not saying we will never put the driveway pack down in this spot, we are just waiting for this bedding stone to set its "roots" then after a couple years/when we can afford to get more gravel we will coat the top layer with the driveway pack so it can pack in the gaps/spaces between the large bedding stones. But obviously from the photos you can see we have alot more bedding stone to haul for the rest of the driveway down the ridgeline hill. But figured I should show pics of what I was trying to describe previously in this thread.

One other idea we were thinking about was laying rip rap along the edges of our driveway like a "mulch border" but with riprap to catch any gravel that may try to roll down hill to the sides. But this might be more expensive then we can afford since our driveway is so long. But we may implement this idea in any areas we have issues with once we bring in the driveway pack and we notice it running off. But as of right now we will not have that issue with our 3inch bedding stone because its staying in place!!!