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roundwood and timber framing

Can these 2x4s in a pole building be removed or are they structural?

Mike Haasl

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posted 5 years ago

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I was at Wheaton Labs last week and got to go up on the couch balcony. It's wonderful except that there are some 2x4s that are tying the lower chords of the trusses together and they're in the way. They're about 4.5' off the floor of the balcony so you have to duck under them to get around up there. I believe they are used when you erect the pole building but they may not be needed once the roof is installed. But I'm not sure.

So... Should they stay in place or can they be removed?

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Eliot Mason

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Mike:

In my experience of pole barns, those are probably structural. There may be more of them then are actually needed (I'd think three per pitch would be enough, based on memory), but they are part of the system to resist sideways pressure. I've seen some buildings without them but that is less common.

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John C Daley

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More images of the timber pieces relevance to the structure. Also, can you ask who designed it?
Also, I dont understand why you feel the need to move them.

Sometimes trusses need lateral support to stop them buckling under load.

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John F Dean

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In some parts of the country, I have seen bracing like that to help with the wind load. It is not common where I am.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

Mike Haasl

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Ok, I'll leave them in. They're at Wheaton Lab and I'm no longer out there so I can't get more pictures. Thanks for the quick feedback!

I can't really see how they resist any wind or snow load. If they went in a diagonal direction they'd help but since they're parallel to the run of the building they don't seem like they'd do much. I figured they were just there to help with holding the trusses in place until the purlins and roof tin were installed.

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John F Dean

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The way they are installed, joist hangers, doesn't look temporary to me.

I figure if someone from the future hasn’t tried to stop me, I can’t be messing up that bad.

thomas rubino

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I would say not structural, but put in for a future drop ceiling.

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R Scott

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posted 5 years ago

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They do both, help hold the trusses during construction and brace against wind and snow load. They keep the bottom chord of the truss straight and directly below the rafter chords. There may be a diagonal somewhere along them or the end wall posts are expected to hold them square.

There are ways to put in X bracing and stiffbacks if you NEED to move one for a stairway or something but best to leave it if possible.

Generally there isn't any "extra" lumber in a pole barn. If it's for construction only, they take it down and re-use it somewhere else.

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Eliot Mason

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Imagine a wind or snow load pushing against the end of the building. Generally the gable end truss is a clear-span, so it has no support in the middle. The force right in the middle of the truss wants to push in and "dish" the truss - the roof purlins transmit side loads along to other trusses and spread the force out among the other trusses. Without these lateral braces the truss has to bear all of the load on its own and generally they aren't designed for it. Sometimes there is an extra web truss perpendicular to the gable truss - it just stiffens the center and moves the forces to the corners.

This end of the building is away from the large door, so the connection between the gable truss and the wall is probably good enough to help resist most side loads. But the building does better if it can share the loads.

As always, IMHO and IANASE.

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Kenneth Elwell

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I'm with the others on their purpose and necessity.

I'm not sure what the desired gain in headroom is, or where on the balcony it falls.

It might be possible to replace one of those braces with 2 braces that form an "X" (high on one truss to low on the adjacent truss, and vice versa, and joined at the crossing).
The headroom at the crossing of the "X" would be improved greatly, as well as (to a lesser extent) towards the lower connections.

There might be a way to get a longer "high headroom" section by building a truss rather than just a simple "X", but it seems like a lot of work.
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Mike Haasl

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Thanks again everyone! Now I see how they help with endwall wind loads as Eliot mentions and also the maintenance of verticality per R. I won't recommend they touch them at all. So much for my inspiration to make the balcony easier to navigate. Replacing them with an X brace might be an option but it wouldn't get enough headroom to even walk under.

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Glenn Herbert

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What is on the outside of this end of the building? Anything at all, or completely unconnected? Another piece of building could perhaps give enough stability to dispense with one or more braces. Perhaps.

How wide is the balcony, and how much headroom does it currently have to the braces? How much more would be needed to give good clearance? And how tall are the trusses? Kenneth's idea of trusses to replace braces would definitely work. Given the long unsupported span of the braces, and the fact that any sort of truss would have much shorter unsupported spans, it would be easy to replicate the full strength of the braces.

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Mike Haasl

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Thanks Glenn, I hadn't thought of those sorts of truss connections. I was just imagining an X brace but your options get at the kind of head bump issues they're dealing with.

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