Search...
Home Subscribe
Pie
Home Subscribe
Recent topics Flagged topics Hot topics Best topics
Search...
Search within roundwood and timber framing Search permies
Advance search Google search
Register / Login
free rmh plans
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
GMC website Better wood heat kitty purple permaculture bootcamp woman working on barrel IC.org Full online Permaculture Design course and Appropriate Technology Course video
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Carla Burke
  • r ranson
  • John F Dean
  • paul wheaton
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Jay Angler
  • Liv Smith
  • Leigh Tate
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Maieshe Ljin

Can these 2x4s in a pole building be removed or are they structural?

 
Mike Haasl
steward
Posts: 15505
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
4846
7
I like...
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I was at Wheaton Labs last week and got to go up on the couch balcony.  It's wonderful except that there are some 2x4s that are tying the lower chords of the trusses together and they're in the way.  They're about 4.5' off the floor of the balcony so you have to duck under them to get around up there.  I believe they are used when you erect the pole building but they may not be needed once the roof is installed.  But I'm not sure.  

So...  Should they stay in place or can they be removed?
Christmas-light-holders.jpg
Christmas light holders
Christmas light holders
-It-s-always-darkest-before-it-goes-pitch-black-.jpg
It's always darkest before it goes pitch black
It's always darkest before it goes pitch black

SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property

 
Eliot Mason
gardener
Posts: 538
Location: Beavercreek, OR
187
I like...
dog bike woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mike:

In my experience of pole barns, those are probably structural.  There may be more of them then are actually needed (I'd think three per pitch would be enough, based on memory), but they are part of the system to resist sideways pressure.  I've seen some buildings without them but that is less common.

Please don't break the building.

Aim High. Fail Small.
Repeat.

 
John C Daley
pollinator
Posts: 5347
Location: Bendigo , Australia
477
I like...
plumbing earthworks bee building homestead greening the desert
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
More images of the timber pieces relevance to the structure. Also, can you ask who designed it?
Also, I dont understand why you feel the need to move them.

Sometimes trusses need lateral support to stop them buckling under load.

John Daley Bendigo, Australia The Enemy of progress is the hope of a perfect plan
Benefits of rainfall collection https://permies.com/t/88043/benefits-rainfall-collection
GOOD DEBT/ BAD DEBT https://permies.com/t/179218/mortgages-good-debt-bad-debt

 
John F Dean
master steward
Posts: 6973
Location: southern Illinois, USA
2538
I like...
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig bee solar wood heat homestead
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In some parts of the country, I have seen bracing like that to help with the wind load. It is not common where I am.

At my age, Happy Hour is a nap.

 
Mike Haasl
steward
Posts: 15505
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
4846
7
I like...
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ok, I'll leave them in.  They're at Wheaton Lab and I'm no longer out there so I can't get more pictures.  Thanks for the quick feedback!

I can't really see how they resist any wind or snow load.  If they went in a diagonal direction they'd help but since they're parallel to the run of the building they don't seem like they'd do much.  I figured they were just there to help with holding the trusses in place until the purlins and roof tin were installed.

SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property

 
John F Dean
master steward
Posts: 6973
Location: southern Illinois, USA
2538
I like...
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig bee solar wood heat homestead
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The way they are installed, joist hangers, doesn't look temporary to me.

At my age, Happy Hour is a nap.

 
thomas rubino
rocket scientist
Posts: 6322
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
3199
I like...
cat pig rocket stoves
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would say not structural, but put in for a future drop ceiling.

For all your Montana Masonry Heater parts (also known as) Rocket Mass heater parts.
Visit me at
dragontechrmh.com Once you go brick you will never go back!

 
R Scott
pollinator
Posts: 4024
Location: Kansas Zone 6a
284
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
They do both, help hold the trusses during construction and brace against wind and snow load.  They keep the bottom chord of the truss straight and directly below the rafter chords. There may be a diagonal somewhere along them or the end wall posts are expected to hold them square.

There are ways to put in X bracing and stiffbacks if you NEED to move one for a stairway or something but best to leave it if possible.  

Generally there isn't any "extra" lumber in a pole barn.  If it's for construction only, they take it down and re-use it somewhere else.

"You must be the change you want to see in the world." "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Mahatma Gandhi
"Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words." --Francis of Assisi.
"Family farms work when the whole family works the farm." -- Adam Klaus

 
Eliot Mason
gardener
Posts: 538
Location: Beavercreek, OR
187
I like...
dog bike woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Imagine a wind or snow load pushing against the end of the building.  Generally the gable end truss is a clear-span, so it has no support in the middle.  The force right in the middle of the truss wants to push in and "dish" the truss - the roof purlins transmit side loads along to other trusses and spread the force out among the other trusses.  Without these lateral braces the truss has to bear all of the load on its own and generally they aren't designed for it.  Sometimes there is an extra web truss perpendicular to the gable truss - it just stiffens the center and moves the forces to the corners.

This end of the building is away from the large door, so the connection between the gable truss and the wall is probably good enough to help resist most side loads.  But the building does better if it can share the loads.

As always, IMHO and IANASE.

Aim High. Fail Small.
Repeat.

 
Kenneth Elwell
pollinator
Posts: 1165
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
506
6
I like...
urban books building solar rocket stoves ungarbage
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm with the others on their purpose and necessity.

I'm not sure what the desired gain in headroom is, or where on the balcony it falls.

It might be possible to replace one of those braces with 2 braces that form an "X" (high on one truss to low on the adjacent truss, and vice versa, and joined at the crossing).
The headroom at the crossing of the "X" would be improved greatly, as well as (to a lesser extent) towards the lower connections.

There might be a way to get a longer "high headroom" section by building a truss rather than just a simple "X", but it seems like a lot of work.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
|\ /_\ / _\ / _\ /|
|/                   \|

I too, am not an engineer.

Nails are sold by the pound, that makes sense.
Soluna Garden Farm -- Flower CSA -- plants, and cut flowers at our Boston Public Market location, Boston, Massachusetts.

 
Mike Haasl
steward
Posts: 15505
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
4846
7
I like...
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks again everyone!  Now I see how they help with endwall wind loads as Eliot mentions and also the maintenance of verticality per R.  I won't recommend they touch them at all.  So much for my inspiration to make the balcony easier to navigate.  Replacing them with an X brace might be an option but it wouldn't get enough headroom to even walk under.

SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property

 
Glenn Herbert
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4527
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
574
5
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What is on the outside of this end of the building? Anything at all, or completely unconnected? Another piece of building could perhaps give enough stability to dispense with one or more braces. Perhaps.

How wide is the balcony, and how much headroom does it currently have to the braces? How much more would be needed to give good clearance? And how tall are the trusses? Kenneth's idea of trusses to replace braces would definitely work. Given the long unsupported span of the braces, and the fact that any sort of truss would have much shorter unsupported spans, it would be easy to replicate the full strength of the braces.
balcony-headroom.jpg
replace brace with truss
replace brace with truss
balcony-headroom2.jpg
or even simpler
or even simpler
 
Mike Haasl
steward
Posts: 15505
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
4846
7
I like...
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks Glenn, I hadn't thought of those sorts of truss connections.  I was just imagining an X brace but your options get at the kind of head bump issues they're dealing with.  

SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property

 
what if we put solar panels on top of the semi truck trailer? That could power this tiny ad:
Unlock Free Wood Plans! Download free projects and create unique pieces now!
https:/the-art-of-regenerative-wood-working/
reply
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!
Similar Threads
More...