permaculture -> symbiculture -> husp

I was on a long drive the other day and recorded a podcast. In the car. By myself. Which I think makes the worst kind of podcast, but some people seem to really like it.

I tried to describe plans for the upcoming property purchase. Assuming the property is 200 acres, I said it would be divided into three pieces. At first I gave numeric values to this idea. Assuming that "organic" has a numeric value of 10, then the first piece would be 4 acres and labeled "100". The next piece would be about 100 acres and labeled "1000" and the remaining piece would be labeled "10,000". But I felt these numbers were lame, so I struggled to come up with something that might be more ... poetic. Now, many days after recording that podcast, I have to say that I really like what I came up with.

The first chunk (4 acres) would be called "permaculture" and is roughly defined as "ten times better than organic". I know that what "better" is would probably change from person to person, but since this would be my property, then I guess I get to make the call on what "better" means.

The second chunk (about 100 acres) would be called "symbiculture". I would roughly define this as "ten times better than permaculture".

The last chunk (remaining acres) would be "husp". Roughly "ten times better than symbiculture".

Already I find myself leaning on this definition to better express myself. So before the podcast even comes out, I want to express this stuff.

Some quick attributes ....

permaculture

- paint is allowed, but not much. Maybe ten times less than you would find on a typical organic farm
- cars may be parked there, but care is taken to make sure stuff does not leak into the soil.
- imported organic matter is allowed (very carefully selected)


symbiculture

- very little paint is allowed
- imported organic matter is not allowed
- limited use of plastic
- electric vehicles allowed
- use of a trac hoe once a year is acceptable.


husp

- zero paint allowed
- no plastics
- no galvanized stuff
- stainless steel and glass are okay
- no electricity
- no plumbing
- nothing is ever burned (no fire, no candles)
- clothing restrictions (no synthetic fibers, shoes, etc.)
- no trac hoe


I expect that I would live in the symbiculture section.

I think that the husp section has a LOT of stuff to still figure out. But that was always the intention with husp: it is far more advanced than I can imagine, and I wish to make a feeble attempt to discover what could be. With the parameters outlined, one challenge seems to be lighting. Jon and I talked about this a bit. He was thinking candles might be okay. I said that the cleanest candles do put stuff into the air, and they consume oxygen from the air.

At this time, the only type of building I imagine building on the property is wofati. I suppose there could be other options presented at some point in time, but I don't know what. Smoking and drugs are not allowed anywhere on the property. Some alcohol is allowed.

I think that figuring out how things can work in the husp area is what I think these forums are for. I mean to say that when I created these forums, it solved a lot of things and gave me a place to "grow" with like minded folks. And now, many years later, these forums do all of these things, but the thing that is the most important is the "grow" thing. There is so much about husp I am not sure about and wish to try and figure out - and I am leaning heavily on these forums to do that.

whats HUSP?

husp

oh i see, i missed this conversation: https://permies.com/t/9121/permaculture/Horticulture-United-States-Pocahontas-husp

husp=the ficticious term that Paul made up "horticulutre of the united stated of Pochahontas

cool, i like it!

paul wheaton wrote:
- nothing is ever burned (no fire,

This seems like it might eliminate the folks who might have wanted to live there, the neo-primitive/neo-paleo folks......

Tyler Ludens wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
- nothing is ever burned (no fire,

This seems like it might eliminate the folks who might have wanted to live there, the neo-primitive/neo-paleo folks......

Yup. Maybe. I think the husp area is going to have extremely few people living there.

It would seem that my mission with husp is different than the mission of others.

Of course, fire and electricity is allowed in the symbiculture part.

paul wheaton wrote: I think the husp area is going to have extremely few people living there.

Really interesting to see how they live! A completely new kind of human society!

Just reread the HUSP thread..yup..made me feel so guilty of my shortcomings. So Paul, are you ready to purchase a property to get this going then? Can't wait to hear more.

Brenda Groth wrote:Just reread the HUSP thread..yup..made me feel so guilty of my shortcomings. So Paul, are you ready to purchase a property to get this going then? Can't wait to hear more.

The search is now progressing about 20 times faster.

could somebody travel between these locals so as to be say 80% husp 20% sybiculture?

Could one use a candle to light a workspace in symbiculture so as to make an "approved tool" for killing an animal in the husp location so long as they eat the animal raw, pickled or dried while in the husp area? Could game be brought from one area to another to accommodate cooking for a feast in another area?

Or am I assuming that meat eating would be allowed in such a place?

Craig Dobbelyu wrote: so long as they eat the animal raw, pickled or dried while in the husp area?

Seems like they might be able to make some kind of cooker in the husp with glass and stainless steel.

Tyler: I guess you mean a solar cooker? That's an awesome point that I clearly overlooked.

Could then a solar hot water system be put in? Solar thermal mass heat? This actually could work out to be quite comfortable.

Craig Dobbelyu wrote:
Could then a solar hot water system be put in?

No plumbing (not even bamboo?). Could be a stainless steel or glass tank from which hot water could be bucketed (no plastic buckets).

The people in husp will need to be about 1,000,000 times more clever than those in the permaculture area as their materials options and technologies are very different from what we're used to (what some might call "limited" but I don't want to use a negative term).

Until better solutions present themselves, I suspect cooking may be limited to the symbiculture area.

plumbing: my concern is with the gick that builds up inside of the pipes.

hi Paul,

your latest husp sounds a lot like Kentucky in the days before "white man" entered the area. It was kept as a hunting grounds for the tribes. not a place to live.
which is one of the reasons why the natives were so unset with the settlers.

also do this restrictions apply to restoration of the husp area?
if this area is degraded, leaving it to revert back by itself may take a while
nature isn't in as a big a hurry as a middle-aged man might be

I had another thought.

Originally, I thought I would divide the land 2/49/49

Then 2/50/48

Now 5/50/45

So for 200 acres, that would be 10 acres for permaculture, 100 acres for symbiculture and 90 acres for husp.

My reasoning is that when we get five or ten years down the road, it is possible that there will be some people on the land that require medication. And maybe those people will be limited to the permaculture area. Or there may be people where they just aren't ready for the next level. So it would be best to have a larger area to better facilitate.

I find it interesting that people are so powerfully interested in the husp area, as opposed to the other areas.

paul wheaton wrote:plumbing: my concern is with the gick that builds up inside of the pipes.

What about a bamboo pole cut lengthways in half to make a "water slide" for transporting water to a "shower" by gravity. Open system, maybe gravel to harbor good bacteria for filtration? Perhaps not "gickless" maybe "beneficial gick". Certainly cleanable.

paul wheaton wrote:
I find it interesting that people are so powerfully interested in the husp area, as opposed to the other areas.

For my part, I'm interested because the idea is so different. I can grasp permaculture and even symbiculture, husp is beyond my easy comprehension as a way for humans to live. Because I get the impression you mean for people to live there, not that it is just a place for people to visit from the other areas? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and living there isn't intended? Maybe you can clarify.

so although indians used fire to cook with, you would not allow that in the husp area, only in the permie or symbi areas? no burning, no flame, only solar in the husp area?

I could see the husp area being a place where people might live for a while but not permanently. ie A retreat or perhaps a place for long (months/year) contemplations. Kind of like a cave of solitude where one might go practice meditation in depth, then emerge back into symbiculture to live. I always have a picture in my head of a little old man sitting quietly in a remote place simply being. Not waiting... Being
Maybe Husp is a place for that?

I'm moslty interested in the Husp area because of the challenges it provides. I'm curious how crafty I could be in a situation like that. Seems like nice place to hone some skills and think critically.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
I find it interesting that people are so powerfully interested in the husp area, as opposed to the other areas.

For my part, I'm interested because the idea is so different. I can grasp permaculture and even symbiculture, husp is beyond my easy comprehension as a way for humans to live. Because I get the impression you mean for people to live there, not that it is just a place for people to visit from the other areas? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and living there isn't intended? Maybe you can clarify.

I, too, am struggling with comprehending how people would live there. I think that is the point. There is a lot to figure out.

I want internet and cooked food, so I think I would not be able to live in husp. Or maybe I live in husp, but wander to symbiculture for internet and cooked food.

I suppose there might be some people that don't give a damn about internet or cooked food. Or light at night. So they are more likely to be comfortable with husp.

Thank you Paul.

Brenda Groth wrote:so although indians used fire to cook with, you would not allow that in the husp area, only in the permie or symbi areas? no burning, no flame, only solar in the husp area?

The mission for the land is a bit different from the mission with the word "husp".

See the husp thread for more about the word.

For the land, the mission is to explore reduced toxicity. Is it possible that somebody might be seriously ill, but if they live on the permaculture portion of the land, they will, mysteriously, get better. The symbiculture land and the husp land would be even less toxic.

Craig Dobbelyu wrote:I could see the husp area being a place where people might live for a while but not permanently. ie A retreat or perhaps a place for long (months/year) contemplations. Kind of like a cave of solitude where one might go practice meditation in depth, then emerge back into symbiculture to live. I always have a picture in my head of a little old man sitting quietly in a remote place simply being. Not waiting... Being
Maybe Husp is a place for that?

I think it might be used for that a lot. But I suspect that in time, there could be people that choose to stay there.

I'm moslty interested in the Husp area because of the challenges it provides. I'm curious how crafty I could be in a situation like that. Seems like nice place to hone some skills and think critically.

Yes. You grok.

paul wheaton wrote:

For the land, the mission is to explore reduced toxicity.

That clarifies a lot.

Just got done going over the other husp thread and it seems a little "dark" towards the end. Violence is an issue for sure, but it seems like peoples' concerns are about violence from outside the group/community. While I'll admit that people who are educated, well fed and in no danger from others, GENERALLY don't use violence, it does happen from time to time. It should be dealt with. HOW?

Outsider violence can be defended against, retaliated against, moderated or ignored. I suppose a lot of that is circumstantial. Insider violence is another story ( maybe). A violent person could be punished, banished, confined, immobilized or terminated depending on the situation. I wonder if people consider that there was likely some mental illness to be dealt with in "tribal" days as well. Some people are unpredictable due to these types of illness and quite frankly could be permanently dangerous. I would assume that in some cases, tribes executed their own people as a matter of saving the tribe from further "trouble". Certainly that goes on today in many places around the world. I don't want to be a downer but I think many modern folks assume a simpler life was one without any trouble or difficult decisions regarding life and death. I know from past study that in times when things are lean, folks have to decide who to feed and who should "figure it out on their own". It's a reality that most would prefer not to think about.

Which brings up a second thing... Dealing with dead bodies. One or two might be easily dealt with but what about say...a hundred from a disease outbreak or warfare? Are there going to be husp people saying "not in my back forest"?

Craig,

I went through that thread and deleted some stuff. Politics and war seems to not add much to horticulture.

Also, I think specific ideas might need new threads (or find the existing thread on those topics). I think it would be fair to make links from this thread to those other topics. And maybe links from those threads to this one.

I like the idea that this thread explores some ideas on what might fit into which section of land. Discussion of what husp might be is might be better for the other thread.

Paul,

I love this thread and the associated podcasts. I really think this is an incredibly ambitious experiment. Being an extremely conservative (politically speaking) individual I am drawn to all of these things on the basis out of reverence for creation in general. Thank you for everything you do and for causing me to think more deeply about the interactions of life.

im curious if the way that the electricity is created is incorporated into your plan or not?
if your property is on an aquifer and you have the rights, it is possible to harvest that electricity without wires and such through ancient technology that harvests the electricity created in aquifers, this means that a light bulb would be able to run WITHOUT being plugged in and could pose no environmental impact if there are no permanant light locations in the husp area, or perhaps just a greener way to work electricity in the symbiculture area, these devices can be very expensive to build but provide FREELY AVAILABLE, safe electricity for miles aroudn the build site
Nikola Tesla knew much about this and even built a tower but it was destroyed when GE(i believe) discovered that it wasnt possible to make a decent profit off of it, from what i understand this is when they shifted most of their funding to edison
there is speculation that this is what the pyramids were built for, but Tesla;s wardenclif(sp) towers were certainly real

Good stuff Paul. I've been coming up with a system similar to husp. I just call it tending the wild though. the ultimate goal is to Move away from " farming" and tend the wild to create a surplus and increase diversity.

And to add I will say the California native Americans used fire to promote extreme diversity. So fire can be a tool used for good. So Much so that areas that were previously burned were up to 400% more productive than areas that were not.

I have no good ideas to add but this thread reminded me of thoughts I liked in "Deep Ecology...living as if nature mattered" a collection of writings put together by Bill Devall and George Sessions in the eighties.

edited to add: I see where mentioning a book is probably inappropriate to this thread...sorry. I have been thinking on permaculture...symbiculture...husp as I water cucumbers and tomatoes today.

I could see where off of my trails in my rear woods it could be a husp area..other than maybe the clothing that has been worn in it and the fact that a gps has been used to map/explore it over the past couple years it hasn't been anything but explored by foot in the 40 years we have lived here although before that it was pulped off (which was horrible to it). It has been healing itself on it's own since then as the only forays we have made into that area was to pick mushrooms or huckleberries over the years or just a hike.

Recently we have built woods NEAR this area but not really INTO it..just close enough to be able to walk to the walkable areas to explore, but not to bring in any equipment beyond the roads...so I could see that.

Would you plant plants in the husp area (we haven't yet) or would you just allow nature to grow what nature grows on it's own without any planting?

Our mostly unexplored woodland area has had nothing done to it, not even dead wood or fallen trees moved aside to make walking easier, just gotta walk around or over them..would this be the type of area you would be thinking of, or would you create trails ..move some downed wood or brambles that may block access? Put in your minimum shelter and maybe some wooden benches as seats..at this point in time we haven't even done any of that in our more wild areas..only markings have been property line flags.

Jordan Lowery wrote: I just call it tending the wild though. the ultimate goal is to Move away from " farming" and tend the wild to create a surplus and increase diversity.

I'm becoming more interested in this concept because of my low success in getting exotic food plants to grow here. I'm hoping to seed many more native food plants instead and keep the exotics in the garden areas right near the house, though I'm planting native foods near the house as well. The challenge is learning to eat a native diet, but even if I don't, it'd be good to know they're available.

This might just be a crazy thought, but maybe bioluminescence could somehow light the wofatis in the husp area. Not sure if there are fungi species that give out enough light though.

As for the paint, Paul, would you allow tempera or other natural paints to be used in the husp area?

i know there are some that are really bright (well for bio-luminescent fungi anyway) and there are some who have glowing spores as well, ive heard it described that the forest floor has an eerie green glow in some places where these grow naturally...
and though i plant to eventually design some type of light box with glowy fungi in them eventually, you must keep in mind that unless their environment is controlled, these fungi only fruit at certain times of year and only for a certain amount of time, meaning in a husp area, even with pathway lined with innoculated substrate, you would have lights only in certain microclimates at certain times of year, not very consistent for light...

Well, maybe huspians would need to be nomadic then but that would not work very well in the winter without fire.

Electricity on husp using tesla techniques: I have to admit that this concerns me. We saw a piece of land that had bulk power lines on it and declined to go there. I am concerned about how these electro magnetic forces may be problematic in ways we have not yet figured out.

though the idea of the tesla stuff is no wires, i hear ya on the electromagnetic field, though i dont know of anything about it really, i suppose i could see that a high power electric field may potentially cause problems, but think that AC power is safer all around than DC power and thats what the tower is, so i wonder what the effects of AC vs DC would have on the surrounding landscape?

Well then, a triple A husp would not even have human scent on it. All the wild critters would quickly learn this and seek husp's shelter.

The husp is a good idea.