Variety Specific List to Austin Texas

Hey Permies,
   
First off, Thank you to the whole community of amazing people always finding ways to work together and create solutions!!! I appreciate you guys!


I am building a food forest 45 min SE of Austin, TX. We are preparing for major tree planting over the next two years.

For the past 9 months, I have been making time to tour all the orchard, food forest, well-known farm to market operations around Austin, volunteering and learning as much as I can.

We are now working on getting a detailed variety specific list of fruit and nut trees that are likely to thrive here.

I am aware that there are micro-climates, varying soils, etc that effect what will thrive on our specific site.

Growing many things may require special soil building, preparation, and care.

I am connected with F-stop farm, Festival Beach food forest, Kirby frye, Bouldin Creek Food Forest, and am connecting with Millberg Farms, Bill Mccraney's farm, and Yegua Creek.

My list will be atleast double what it currently is, but it i currently as follows

Arizona Walnuts
Black Walnuts
Little River Walnut

Pecan Varieties?

Celeste figs
Alma figs
Brown turkey figs
Hapt figs

escarpment black cherry

Mexican plum
Santa Rosa plum
methley Plum

Peach varieties?

Pear varieties?

Apple varieties?

Loquat?

Asian persimmon?

Jujube

Pomegranate

Mulberry

Our soil is sandy, with clay 6-8 ft down. Property has 3 varieties of oak, loblolly pine, elm, mesquite, cedar, mustang grapes, wild blueberries, yaupon, and Indian plum all over.


MY QUESTION'S ARE:  (to anyone who has actual experience or knowledge of the immediate AUSTIN, Tx area, or if you know someone who is!)

1) What are specific VARIETIES that are likely to grow and produce well?

2) Do you know people locally who can help me?

3) I am especially trying to find information on chestnuts here..... There is a nearby town named chestnut and streets in Austin named chestnut. Otherwise I have been unsuccessful in finding anyone who has grown or planted chestnuts or knows anything about them here......

My friend and teacher Mike Dolan at Burnt Ridge Nursery in Onalaska, Wa does believe they can be grown here, and Mark Sheppard says they will grow wherever Oaks grow.

Thanks for all your help! (Not looking to hear about what can't be done) I'm a what can be done kind of guy!

Be Well!!!

ADMINS: please do cross pollinate or share this post to whatever forums may be appropriate.

I am always looking for all in/full time apprentices. Always paid positions.

I am west of Austin so I would like to recommend that you add Native Fruit Trees to your list.  Native trees are more drought and heat tolerant.

We have not had good luck with the varieties of fruit trees we have tried mainly to apple cedar rust from juniper trees.

The ones we tried that were not prone to apple cedar rust did not grow well due to rocky limestone soil even though we added amendments.

Please add these natives to your list:

Chickasaw Plum, Prunus angustifolia

Red Mulberry, Morus rubra

Pawpaw, Asimina triloba

Persimmon, Diospyros virginiana

Pecan trees are natives where I live though I have no idea what the native variety is.

Hi Neighbor.
We recently bought 5 acres in hill country (1 hour west of austin) and will also be planting a food forest and creating Intentional Community. i looked over your list of places you have visited thus far and could not find: Kirby frye or Bill Mccraney's farm on a map?  Would you mind elaborating on where they are? and please, would you mind continuing to share what you find out.
We're in Johnson City off the 290.

I also recommend native pecans. They are best adapted, they have better flavor, and they are cheaper.

For the Chestnut you might look at Allegheny Chinquapin Chestnuts. It's a smaller tree, it would make a good understory which would be an advantage in the hotter dryer conditions.

Texas Persimmon would be another one to add.

As far as streets or areas named Chestnut, I would suspect that was named after a person (Last name Chestnut).

If it was a more recent naming it was probably not even considering the local trees, I see this done a lot with newer neighborhoods. They just pick names they think sound nice and have nothing to do with the area.

Orion and Anand,

I would like to recommend a visit to these "The Natural Gardener" and "Barton Springs Nursery"?

https://tngaustin.com/hours-and-location/

http://www.bartonspringsnursery.com/map-of-the-nursery

And of course, I have to recommend "Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center"

https://www.wildflower.org/visit

All three of the resources Anne mentioned are excellent.

I grew Texas Everbearing figs for many years in the Austin area. Very productive.

You might consider visiting downtown New Braunfels at pecan harvest time. There are some huge pecan trees along the sidewalk. There is a park on the backside of Austin Bergstrom International that has a different pecan variety. Blanco Shoals in San Marcos has many big pecan trees too. I suggest using pecans from all three places to have a good mix of proven genetics for the area.

Did you know mesquite is edible? Chili petins & nopalitas grow exceptionally well in the area too.

I accidentally found these images this morning and thought I would share:


source


Source


source

From selling organic gardening materials to sharing advice on the radio, John Dromgoole has been an iconic gardening figure in Austin for 34 years

On the grounds of The Natural Gardener is where founder and owner John Dromgoole felt the most, well, natural. Sitting at an wrought-iron table on a sunny March morning, the 68-year-old was surrounded by patrons perusing the goods, staff rebuilding the herb garden, painters working on watercolors of the flowering trees and children running around, dragging red wagons filled with plants. He has come a long way from running a clothing boutique in his hometown of Laredo to running Austin’s preeminent center for organic gardening

John the Gardener

It is my understanding that Jeff Ferris has taken over the radio show on KLBJ- AM Austin, Tx.

While looking for something else, I found the name of the Native Texas Pecan.

Anne said, "Pecan trees are natives where I live though I have no idea what the native variety is.

They are: carya illinoinensis

All pecan trees would be Carya illinoienensis. The natives would be the specific ecotypes found in your local area, vs improved named varieties/cultivars such as 'Desirable' or 'Pawnee'.

Many nurseries offer native pecans at around half the price.

Hey neighbor, by your description you’re around Bastrop, Smithville or over towards Giddings. I’m a little south but nearby. There are lots of Loquats in the area, I don’t know that there are named varieties. Most do well but some have been damaged by last winters freeze. To add to your list, I have an Olympia Fig that is doing well. I planted pecans and hickory from large nuts I gathered last year and many popped up, time will tell if they produce good size nuts. I have white, red and black mulberry all started from seed and thriving. Japanese persimmons do great if you can keep the deer off of them. I’ve now connected with a source for scion wood for peaches that do great around here. You’re welcome to come visit us I’ve got plenty of plants to share send me a message if you’d like.

J Youngman wrote:All pecan trees would be Carya illinoienensis. The natives would be the specific ecotypes found in your local area, vs improved named varieties/cultivars such as 'Desirable' or 'Pawnee'.

Where I live the pecan trees were probably here before named varieties were cultivated.  I wanted to try to be as accurate as possible with which trees they might be.  

Here is what this said:

The Latin species name is from an old term, "Illinois nuts," and refers to the region where traders found wild trees and nuts. Native Americans may have extended the range by planting. This tree of the Mississippi valley was unknown to British colonists on the Atlantic coast. Thomas Jefferson planted seeds at Monticello and gave some to George Washington; now these Pecans are the oldest trees in Mount Vernon.

I also read that Texas named the Pecan as the State Tree in 1919.  

Maybe the old folks at some point planted a cultivated variety that went wild and started growing along the rivers with the wild species so I have no way of knowing what varieties went wild.

Pecans were definitely there before cultivated varieties, they are a native Texas tree which covers a large area of Texas.
The scientific name refers to any pecan, both cultivated and wild, which would include pecan trees from anywhere in the native range.
A pecan from the midwest is not going to be as well adapted to Texas compared to one that is from your local area. Even a tree from East Texas will not be as well adapted to areas of Central Texas.
The more local (or at least more similar to your specific growing conditions) the source of your tree is, the better your tree will be adapted.

Green Bexar Farm in Hedwig (East of San Antonio) has a pecan orchard. He may be able to help with the questions on pecans, or maybe not. I know he just by happenstance bought the property before he had any interest in starting a farm so he may not have a lot of information on them from when he purchased the land.

If nothing else, maybe he'd be willing to share some pecans for you to grow trees from.

Permaculturesq classes, workshops and programs will are being organized now and will be open to the public later this Spring!

By the end of Summer, we plan to host a PDC and have regular classes, workshops, and volunteer opportunities!

The first well, will be finished and pumping this week. Roads have been mapped out, ponds have been designed for.

3 weeks of work with and excavator, and application of mulch, compost, and topsoil, completes a few thousand feet of contour line swale/berms across 1/2 the site.

A major gathering area has been chosen, built up, leveled, and planted with ground cover

And we are getting ready to plant a food forest spiraling out and away from our gathering be space.

Industrial/shop space is planned, 1000s of feet of robbers and crops planted, and greenhouse location planned.

15 months in to a project of "Design and Build an Off-Grid retreat space, educational facility/event space, as sustainably as possible"

So, an update

The site we are developing is sandy soil above clay that has great drainage into an arroyo canyon system that winds across part of the site.

Our well is almost finished the pump is in electricity ready, the two will be connected and final misc plumbing and we have a well that can pump 25,000 gallons a day.

We worked together with local permacukture professional Pete Van Dyke and Kirby Fry to lay out 1000 ft of contours.

We are now making a big push to finish building beds and get contours ready for a ~200 tree planting within the next 3 months.

Our plant list in still growing and has been a lot of time and work compiling and refining, these are some of the updates.

A lot more potentials that we are gathering information and confirming site and resource viability for.

More contextual relevance  for our chosen varieties, trees native to our site are

Loblolly pine
Mesquite
Post oak
Water oak
Black jack oak
"Red cedar"
Yaupon
2 elm trees



Arizona walnuts are the main walnut tree that will do well here, and grows into an upper canopy.

Little river walnuts grow wild against the rivers in Texas and are smaller tree/shrubs that produce small nuts.

Some places online seem to suggest the Texas black walnut is the same as the river walnut? We are still confirming whether there is a third variety that is known to d well here.


Of Pecans, we have learned that like many plants, the seeds do not grow true, so there is no guarantee a pecan grown from seed will yield well.

It is also said that planting Pecans is a gift to the grandchildren, because they grow slow and take decades to produce.  

We will plant many knowing this.

People who grow pecan trees intentionally/professionally usually graft from a tree that is known to be a high yielding, good tasting tree.

We have also connected with some Pecan growers that are very helpful and knowledgeable and sell trees.

In addition to buying popularly sold and known treed, we have begun the mission of sending out feelers, taste testing in season, and asking around about the biggest and most delicious pecans people are eating from around Austin and the area, as Pecans are so common here, and we will graft these chosen trees onto our site.

Peaches
Peaches were apparently one of the most prevalent and common crops and orchards that began to be farmed in the south and southeast and as a result the bacteria and disease that effected native stone fruit has evolved and adapted (or so they say)

The result or reality is that peach treed tend to only grow and survive here for around 15 years. (We have high hopes of extending that with IMO+EMO+Woodchips+activated biochar/urine charged+compost+vermicompost/compost teas, need oil as needed, and much more magic.

Anyway varieties that are known to well here and likely will on our site are

La Feliciona
Red Baron (especially beautiful)
June Gold
Most or all of the Florida varieties. (Will add specific names later)


Of the Escarpment Black Cherry,
we learned that it is mainly suited to the rocky hill country east of Bastrop and is not expected to like our sandy soil, however we plan to experiment with creating caliche rock beds, and seeing what unfolds......

Of Loquats

It seems universally agreed that the Orange varieties are the sweetest and favorite of the people for taste and many orange varieties also produce large fruit.
We will soon have variety specific names

Of the white loquats there might be a variety called champagne reputed for its excellent taste, size, and vigor. (Will confirm)

And no information has been gathered on yellow varieties other than concensus that variety is ideal.


Persimmons
Chocolate
FUJO
Are the two varieties recommended so far.

Of Jujube, there seem to be two varieties.
Lee
Lang or Long? I think Lang

It seems that of all the fruits, figs truly thrive here, and we have collected a list of more than 50 varieties.

The ones listed above are so far highly recommended to us and we will grow a wide variety. We are going to start by disqualifying varieties that are more susceptible to disease, less productive, unsuited to our site,, etc, and then collect all the remaining varieties.


Of Chesnuts, not a single tree or person has been found that claims a chestnut tree grows here.

However, our friend Michael Dolan at Burnt Ridge Nursery and Orchard in Washington, collected 87 varieties from around the world over a 40 year period to test on his 40 acres. Of those, around 8 do pretty well in Washington.

Chestnuts also require pollinators varieties and many varieties are pollen sterile.

It seems quite possible that many varieties were attempted here with no success and being such a long term investment experiment was abandoned and thought unfruitful.

Michael Dolan believes they will grow here, and Mark Shepherd  says they grow wherever oaks grow. We have 3 native varieties to our site.

After planting our assured staple crops, we plan to experiment with specific chestnut varieties in hopes of bringing chestnuts to the Austin area! We're optimistic.

We do have many more plants on our list, but are heavily focusing on trees at the moment.

If you have any more useful information and recommendations, we appreciate them!

In reference to the escarpment black cherry, I meant the hill country West of Austin not East.


If you know more about the walnuts, we'd love to know.

As well as any other information or recomendations

Anand,
 
    If you are still active, our site is an hour or more from your site and a very different terrain than the hill country.

    Kirby Fry is a professional cob builder, builder, permaculture designer, and teacher.

     He is usually pretty busy building. He doesn't  have a publicly listed farm.

     Bill Mccraney owns an organic, biodynamic blue berry farm in Bastrop (our town), and some of the people on our team have known him for quite a while. He is not on wwoof.

As far as chestnuts go, Dunstan chestnuts may be worth a look at. They are Chinese/American hybrids that have been selected for blight resistance, yield and nut size. Many similar breeding projects are ongoing, but the Dunstans have been grown and selected in north Florida. All the other chestnut sources that I know of are from further north and so may not do as well in the climates of the deep south. The biggest difference between north Florida where the Dunstans have been selected and where you are in Texas is that Texas is drier, but the soil you describe sounds good for chestnuts to me, as long as the ph isn't above 7. Chestnuts like good drainage and are drought tolerant once established as long as the soil is deep enough for them to get their roots down into some more reliable moisture, so sandy near the surface with clay underneath is a good situation for them.

I have chestnuts from a number of sources, and the Dunstans I have are some of the more reliable ones here in southern Missouri. They are seedlings so there's a decent amount of variability, but mostly good traits from what I've seen.

I would not agree with the statement that chestnut will grow wherever oaks do. There is a lot of overlap, but there is a much greater diversity among oaks than chestnuts. The genus Quercus has over 500 species worldwide, while the genus Castanea has only 8 species in it. I have seen oaks growing in rocky alkaline soil in semi-desert conditions in the southwest that chestnuts wouldn't have a chance in.