Canning questions

So, I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel here, but more looking for clarification on a few things canning related. I fully understand the risks with improperly canned food and understand that the “rules” in place are supposedly to guard against those risks. I’m just not one to blindly do what I’m told without asking questions and having it make sense in my mind.

I’m pretty inexperienced with canning but have hot water bath canned at least a few jars every year for several years now and am not questioning my methods.

So far, the only things I can are fruits. Generally applesauce and whatever sort of crude jams I can make with what nature provides in a given year (berries, apples, grapes or a combination of them). I say “crude” jams because generally, I either smash or blend the fruit and can it, or simmer it to remove some water and then can it. This includes apple skins and berry/grape seeds.

From my understanding, nothing needs to be sterile when canning fruit so long as the process time is over 10 minutes. So, since I’m making jam and dont care about texture, cant I just process it all for 20 minutes and not sterilize anything before?

Also, how important is hot packing? Could I just increase processing times to compensate for things that aren’t piping hot while filling the jars? Like apple pie filling. Instead of heating it all to hot pack, couldn’t I just pack it cold and process for a half hour?

Recipes…everything I read says to “follow the recipe”. I have never cared for recipes. Actually, I have a bit of a disdain for recipes and rarely use them for more than inspiration. So, for things like processing times and head space (still just talking fruit jams, pie filling and sauce), is there any blanket rule that covers everything? Like leave 1/4” headspace and process for 30 minutes. Would that be safe for what I’m doing? Also, I dont add sugar to fruit, seems too unnecessary and redundant to me. I read that adding sugar isn’t necessary for safety, just a preference. But recipes all call for pectin and lemon juice and sugar and id like to avoid all that if its safe. Fruit already is acidic, has sugar and pectin inside. Im fine with boiling off water to get the consistency I want. But I dont know where that leaves the lemon juice. Is it necessary? I just want fruit muck in a jar in the pantry. I feel like there should be a way to do that without all the recipe reading and added ingredients.

Here’s a link to a USDA website with all the recipes I dont want to follow:

https://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/usda/GUIDE02_HomeCan_rev0715.pdf

Brody, there are a lot of questions and I can't remember all of them so here are a few answers.

I would not want to waste all my hard work by not sterilizing my jar. Jars that have been washed in the dishwasher might have some food bits, etc.  Since I have to have warm the jars anyway so I can put hot foods in them I see no reason to skip that step.

A low amount of sugar helps keep color, texture, and flavor though it is optional.

I feel most recommend following the recipe as a disclaimer. I use them as a guide for how much sugar, etc to add.

I imagine that people who have been canning all their lives ... just to it without books, recipes, etc.

I mostly follow the instruction from my canner manual and trusted books.

I am sure others will chime in with their thoughts.

Some rules are probably more important than others, I don't think many people in Europe waterbath can.  It's not even required for sale of Jam or pickles here. Jars are hot packed and then sealed that's it. Of course I am not talking about veg in water or meat here just things where they are preserved with acidity and or sugar.

Which is why you cannot buy "pickle crisp" or whatever it's called around here, it's not needed if you don't boil your pickles!

Also, how important is hot packing? Could I just increase processing times to compensate for things that aren’t piping hot while filling the jars? Like apple pie filling. Instead of heating it all to hot pack, couldn’t I just pack it cold and process for a half hour?

I would say try it, pack one cold and then process for the extra time you area adding on, open a jar up and stick a thermometer in if it is hot by that time then it will be hot enough long enough. if it isn't well adjust and try again.

Brody, this may sound heretical but maybe canning isn’t the way of preserving food that suits your nature. Canning is a very precise and sterile process and the consequences of not following the rules can be deadly. In the grand scheme of things, it is a very new technology for preserving food that came out of the 19th century need for military food storage. People all over the world have figured out ingenious methods for food preservation that have been used for thousands of years. Those methods did not include sterile jars and canning lids. Some people really enjoy the precision and structure of beautiful jars aligned in a tidy pantry. I envy their patience and dedication to this food preservation approach.

Maybe you, like me, need more freedom with preservation and less stress regarding outcomes. The book, Wild Fermentation: The Flavor, Nutrition, and Craft of Live Culture Foods, by Sandor Katz is a terrific place to start if you want to preserve food with lots of wiggle room. Another interesting read on old methods is Chelsea Green Publishers compilation of recipes by The Gardeners & Farmers of Terre Vivante, Preserving Food without Freezing or Canning: Traditional Techniques Using Salt, Oil, Sugar, Alcohol, Vinegar, Drying, Cold Storage, and Lactic Fermentation. Maangchi’s book, Real Korean Cooking, has many easy versions of kimchi and other wonderful probiotic ferments. Rather than slog through precision canning techniques “without a recipe,” find the creative approach to food preservation that speaks to your soul!

Brody, you and I live in the USA. so, the standard caution ought to be stated, follow the UADA standards that you have linked to.

In other news, I don't think that the Australian government is trying to kill off its population by having different standards. I do not know their government standards website, but Kate Downham has an awesome cookbook wherein she describes their processes.

Take a peek at it here. I must mention that the hardback copy is wonderful.

Anne Miller wrote:Brody, there are a lot of questions and I can't remember all of them so here are a few answers.

I would not want to waste all my hard work by not sterilizing my jar. Jars that have been washed in the dishwasher might have some food bits, etc.  Since I have to have warm the jars anyway so I can put hot foods in them I see no reason to skip that step.

A low amount of sugar helps keep color, texture, and flavor though it is optional.

I feel most recommend following the recipe as a disclaimer. I use them as a guide for how much sugar, etc to add.

I imagine that people who have been canning all their lives ... just to it without books, recipes, etc.

I mostly follow the instruction from my canner manual and trusted books.

I am sure others will chime in with their thoughts.

We gave our dishwasher away so everything gets human eyes on it and scrubbed by hands! Not to say we dont make mistakes, but I trust us more than a machine. I feel your concern though. Sterilization irks me because I dont want to ingest bleach or any no-rinse sterilization chemicals. Boiling would work, but requires more time, more space and more energy. I would gladly skip all that if its unnecessary, which to my understanding it is unnecessary for high acid foods processed longer than 10 minutes.

As for the flavor, color and texture: I’m remarkably easy to please with food and am not worried about any of those things. And the people who eat my food are aware of it! My applesauce has skin, my grape jam has seeds and nothing is overly sweet.

I believe you’re right that most people follow recipes as a disclaimer. Im just trying to be certain of that instead of speculating!

Skandi Rogers wrote:Some rules are probably more important than others, I don't think many people in Europe waterbath can.  It's not even required for sale of Jam or pickles here. Jars are hot packed and then sealed that's it. Of course I am not talking about veg in water or meat here just things where they are preserved with acidity and or sugar.

Which is why you cannot buy "pickle crisp" or whatever it's called around here, it's not needed if you don't boil your pickles!

Also, how important is hot packing? Could I just increase processing times to compensate for things that aren’t piping hot while filling the jars? Like apple pie filling. Instead of heating it all to hot pack, couldn’t I just pack it cold and process for a half hour?

I would say try it, pack one cold and then process for the extra time you area adding on, open a jar up and stick a thermometer in if it is hot by that time then it will be hot enough long enough. if it isn't well adjust and try again.

Wait, so youre telling me all of Europe doesn’t legally have to legitimately hot water bath can their fruit stuff? They just hot pack and if it seals, they call it good? That was my logic and practice for years before I “learned” that I was being reckless. Maybe I didnt learn anything! Do they sterilize jars before filling?

If thats the case then I wont even worry about any of these questions, I’ll just play it super safe (by European standards) and hot pack and process for 30 minutes. No sugar, no acids and no fiddling with slightly different processing times.

Amy Gardener wrote:Brody, this may sound heretical but maybe canning isn’t the way of preserving food that suits your nature. Canning is a very precise and sterile process and the consequences of not following the rules can be deadly. In the grand scheme of things, it is a very new technology for preserving food that came out of the 19th century need for military food storage. People all over the world have figured out ingenious methods for food preservation that have been used for thousands of years. Those methods did not include sterile jars and canning lids. Some people really enjoy the precision and structure of beautiful jars aligned in a tidy pantry. I envy their patience and dedication to this food preservation approach.

Maybe you, like me, need more freedom with preservation and less stress regarding outcomes. The book, Wild Fermentation: The Flavor, Nutrition, and Craft of Live Culture Foods, by Sandor Katz is a terrific place to start if you want to preserve food with lots of wiggle room. Another interesting read on old methods is Chelsea Green Publishers compilation of recipes by The Gardeners & Farmers of Terre Vivante, Preserving Food without Freezing or Canning: Traditional Techniques Using Salt, Oil, Sugar, Alcohol, Vinegar, Drying, Cold Storage, and Lactic Fermentation. Maangchi’s book, Real Korean Cooking, has many easy versions of kimchi and other wonderful probiotic ferments. Rather than slog through precision canning techniques “without a recipe,” find the creative approach to food preservation that speaks to your soul!

You nailed it! Canning is not my thing AT ALL! Im a fermenter 100%. To me, canning is a dead, hollow process that results in food products with far less nutritional value and it takes a lot more energy to get there. Fermentation results in added nutritional value and you’re letting nature run its course to some extent, so much less energy involved. Actually, I have Wild Fermentation and love the book.

I tend to see things either completely grey or completely black and white, and canning vs fermenting is black and white to me. I understand some of the biology behind the processes but their stark differences are hard to accept.

My main issues with fermentation are:

1. Nothing is ever “done”. The food is never stable, theres always gas building, texture changing and flavors changing. This is life, I know. Nothing is ever “done”. But for convenience sake, it is nice to have stable, finished canned goods that dont need any attention.

2. Storage. This is something I have not learned enough about. I know different state laws and I know traditional methods (2 very different things!) but dont know what is legitimately necessary to provide safety. For example, we make 18 lb sauerkraut batches. After a month in the crock we jar it and put the jars in the fridge because it will slow the process and they wont need attention. Is it necessary? I dont think so, people used to just leave crocks in the cellar, scrape off mold and eat whats underneath. But that’s not safe as far as I know. Now what about fruit sauces, jams and pie fillings? Im sure i can ferment all of that easily and it will be delicious and nutritious. But do I cap stuff off and put in the fridge, leave it bubbling away until we eat it all, or leave in the basement just like canned goods?

For someone who overthinks everything and is constantly learning, I still have so many questions!

Joylynn Hardesty wrote:Brody, you and I live in the USA. so, the standard caution ought to be stated, follow the UADA standards that you have linked to.

In other news, I don't think that the Australian government is trying to kill off its population by having different standards. I do not know their government standards website, but Kate Downham has an awesome cookbook wherein she describes their processes.

Take a peek at it here. I must mention that the hardback copy is wonderful.

My confusion is that the USA apparently has different standards than other countries. I also doubt other countries are trying to kill their people off, so what gives? Are we all paranoid and trying to avoid liabilities, or are we more advanced in our processes and legislation here? I highly doubt the latter!

Brody Ekberg wrote:

Wait, so youre telling me all of Europe doesn’t legally have to legitimately hot water bath can their fruit stuff? They just hot pack and if it seals, they call it good? That was my logic and practice for years before I “learned” that I was being reckless. Maybe I didnt learn anything! Do they sterilize jars before filling?

If thats the case then I wont even worry about any of these questions, I’ll just play it super safe (by European standards) and hot pack and process for 30 minutes. No sugar, no acids and no fiddling with slightly different processing times.

I can't speak for all of Europe just where I am. Yes I sterilise the jars first. either run them through the dishwasher (empty) or put them in the oven for 30 minutes. We're relying on the acidity/sugar/salt to do the actual preserving. I have seen videos from eastern europe where they are packing mixed vegetables with a little salt and vinegar and then boiling them so the process also depends on what you are preserving.

Neither the UK nor Denmark has ANY official standards.

One important point, the worst thing that you can get in your jar is botulism, BUT the toxin it produces which is the problematic part is rendered safe by 10 minutes boiling. So if at any point you are unsure about a jar boil it for at least 10 minutes before consuming.

Because botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety.

Link

I would want to know the enemies: dangerous bacteria and molds.

Most molds are identifiable by look or smell. They're relatively easy to find. But the bacteria can be less so.

I know that one of the most dangerous is botulism. I assume other food borne pathogens might be at risk as well - e coli, salmonella and other less famous ones.

Most of the guidance is to make sure none of the enemies can get in, or if they're in they die a swift death.

I'm out of time right now to look up the best means of killing the enemies... but I'm sure the info is out there.

The guidance in recipes is probably overgeneralized because it covers relatively sure ways to kill ALL of the bad guys even the ones not applicable to a particular food or method.

Brody wrote: I feel your concern though. Sterilization irks me because I dont want to ingest bleach or any no-rinse sterilization chemicals. Boiling would work, but requires more time, more space and more energy. I would gladly skip all that if its unnecessary, which to my understanding it is unnecessary for high acid foods processed longer than 10 minutes.

I would never have thought anyone would use bleach to sterilize jars.  At least that is not how I was taught.

I cook my fruit, pack in hot jars, and seal using various methods over the years.  

My jars need to be hot to add hot fruit so I put my jar in a pan, cover the jars with water, bring to a boil for 15 min. Turn off heat.

Now my jars are hot so I pack them with the hot fruit.

I will add, if you have been doing this for several years and it works for you just keep doing what you do.

Don't worry about what other people say.  Just do it and ... if you offer it to someone else don't tell them how you do it or anyone for that matter.

Don't give away your trade secrets.

I don't do the dishwasher thing.  I just put the jars (half full or more of water) in the water bath canner as it is heating up.  When it's nearing the boiling point, the jars just happen to also be sterilized.  Pull each one out with the grabbers, drain it into the canner, fill with food and put back in the canner.  

If I'm pressure canning two layers of pint jars, this doesn't work as well so I put the jars in the toaster oven at 140 to get them warm enough.  

My understanding is that you want clean (not necessarily sterile) jars to be hottish so that when you put hot stuff in them, they don't crack.  

Also, the 10 minute thing for water bath is altitude dependent.  Up here where Brody and I live, we are supposed to adjust that to 15 minutes and people in the real mountains need to give it even more time.

Skandi Rogers wrote:
I can't speak for all of Europe just where I am. Yes I sterilise the jars first. either run them through the dishwasher (empty) or put them in the oven for 30 minutes. We're relying on the acidity/sugar/salt to do the actual preserving. I have seen videos from eastern europe where they are packing mixed vegetables with a little salt and vinegar and then boiling them so the process also depends on what you are preserving.

Neither the UK nor Denmark has ANY official standards.

One important point, the worst thing that you can get in your jar is botulism, BUT the toxin it produces which is the problematic part is rendered safe by 10 minutes boiling. So if at any point you are unsure about a jar boil it for at least 10 minutes before consuming.

Because botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety.

Link

Id be really interested to see if places like denmark or the UK have a higher rate of botulism than the US. I imagine they would have similar if not more people practicing home food preservation regardless of their standards (or lack of).

And I had no idea botulism toxins are destroyed by boiling for 10 minutes. So theoretically, a questionable jar of jam could be reprocessed or just cooked for 10 minutes and be safe. That is great to know!

L. Johnson wrote:I would want to know the enemies: dangerous bacteria and molds.

Most molds are identifiable by look or smell. They're relatively easy to find. But the bacteria can be less so.

I know that one of the most dangerous is botulism. I assume other food borne pathogens might be at risk as well - e coli, salmonella and other less famous ones.

Most of the guidance is to make sure none of the enemies can get in, or if they're in they die a swift death.

I'm out of time right now to look up the best means of killing the enemies... but I'm sure the info is out there.

The guidance in recipes is probably overgeneralized because it covers relatively sure ways to kill ALL of the bad guys even the ones not applicable to a particular food or method.

Im also inclined to think that many of the guidelines and recipes are overgeneralized and not applicable to some of the things I’m doing, Im just trying to be sure before I do much more canning.

Anne Miller wrote:
I would never have thought anyone would use bleach to sterilize jars.  At least that is not how I was taught.

I cook my fruit, pack in hot jars, and seal using various methods over the years.  

My jars need to be hot to add hot fruit so I put my jar in a pan, cover the jars with water, bring to a boil for 15 min. Turn off heat.

Now my jars are hot so I pack them with the hot fruit.

I will add, if you have been doing this for several years and it works for you just keep doing what you do.

Don't worry about what other people say.  Just do it and ... if you offer it to someone else don't tell them how you do it or anyone for that matter.

Don't give away your trade secrets.

I have been doing this for several years, but just because it hasn’t caused me problems yet doesn’t mean it wont in the future. From my understanding, botulism spores are everywhere and need an oxygen free, low acid environment to grow. So many canned goods are prime for that. Plus, you cant see, smell or taste botulism and so would have no idea you’re consuming a tainted food until after you get sick.

What you said about not telling others how I do it is making me realize how much faith we (probably unknowingly) put on others when we consume home canned goods. I think about upcoming deer camp and all the canned, fermented and pickled products from all sorts of different people and am realizing now that theres no way to know if the person why prepared the stuff did it safely or not, or if the jar has botulism and toxins or not. Not like it will stop me from eating any of it, its just amazing to think of how ignorantly i have been eating stuff all these years just assuming its all safe!

Mike Haasl wrote:I don't do the dishwasher thing.  I just put the jars (half full or more of water) in the water bath canner as it is heating up.  When it's nearing the boiling point, the jars just happen to also be sterilized.  Pull each one out with the grabbers, drain it into the canner, fill with food and put back in the canner.  

If I'm pressure canning two layers of pint jars, this doesn't work as well so I put the jars in the toaster oven at 140 to get them warm enough.  

My understanding is that you want clean (not necessarily sterile) jars to be hottish so that when you put hot stuff in them, they don't crack.  

Also, the 10 minute thing for water bath is altitude dependent.  Up here where Brody and I live, we are supposed to adjust that to 15 minutes and people in the real mountains need to give it even more time.

I like that process you laid out. It doesn’t require extra time, water or space to heat up the jars or even sterilize them by boiling if you do them in the water bath canner as that water is heating up. Do you also throw lids and rings in the water as well? I guess the rings don’t contact anything inside the jars but lids might not be sterile from the factory.

And yes, you’re right about the time compensation based off of altitude. We’re about 1,400’ above sea level here so that needs to be taken into consideration.

I don't put the lids in the canner since they'd be hard to fish out, and if you accidentally boil the lids, their seals get messed up.  So I keep them on the counter and when I grab them with the magnet stick, I dunk them for a second in the hot canner water.  If the canner is boiling, I hold them low over the water for several seconds to get heated by the steam.  In the olden days I'd keep another saucepot on the stove on low heat with the lids soaking in it.  It's just hard to remember to watch that pot and keep it from getting too hot.

Rings go on the jars cold since they aren't touching the food.  I assume that's ok....