Long game clay soil fixing

Hi all, total newbie here with a piece of land in Wyoming that’s totally been over grazed, wind blown, etc. it’s very silty clay. Won’t be living on it for quite some time if at all, but I’d like to come up with some sort of “10 year plan” to see if we can get anything growing there.

Am I insane to think about throwing a bunch of “wildflower mix” around just to see if any of it takes and could start the process of getting the soil broken up a little and as they grow and die start getting some fungus and little dirt critters going?

Also thinking of burying some logs/sticks/mulch/whatever we can find where we may want a wind break eventually to start breaking down.

Am I nuts?

Hi and welcome to Permies!

It's good that you're taking the long approach to healing your land. I found a few threads that may be of help, particularly this one:

https://permies.com/t/65103/Building-soil-repairing-compacted-land

Lots of people have clay soil with similar issues of trying to get life back:
https://permies.com/t/18502
https://permies.com/t/163945
https://permies.com/t/20752
https://permies.com/t/155557/Improving-wet-clay-soil-newly
https://permies.com/t/160513/Tired-slow-soil-building-invest

I would suggest any local deep rooting annual or biannual plant, may be ask your neighbours what grows well. Getting long lasting organic material back in the soil appears to be the key. Many people swear by wood chip, I don't know whether that would be an option for you?
I'm going through the same process myself (compacted silty soil). I am going to try and renew some areas fast by digging and then growing deep rooted plants to introduce organic material as deep as possible, and some areas slow by tap root penetration if possible. The trouble is finding a plant that won't itself be a problem in future years, although many of the soil threads suggest that succession will solve this problem too.
Often the answer is do nothing - see what grows and just observe for a year.

From what I understand "silty clay" is more silt than clay which sounds very similar to the soil where I live except I feel it is probably something different but will take the same remedies since it is mostly inorganic.

I love wildflowers though I don't know that they build soil.

some of Nancy's links very well may help though I would like to suggest reading Dr. Bryant Redhawk's Soil Series as this will give you some of the knowledge to an understanding of how to build soil:

https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil

Thanks for the replies, now I’ve got more reading to do. My wife and I will be making a trip there in the spring and I’ve ordered some black locust, honey locust, and hackberry seeds to plant while we’re there, kinda just to see what happens to them to be honest. If they grow, wonderful. If they don’t, seeds are cheap. I’ll be reading up on how to give them their best shot at getting started in the poor soil. We are a few states away currently, so more than a couple trips a year there will be tough for now, but if we can get some movement in the right direction in the next few years it’ll be a big jump start.

I fixed enough of my clay to have a small garden here in California. I used to live in Wyo too so I know what you're talking about with the beat up soil. It's definitely worse where I live now though so what you want to do is possible. Anyways, I think the best thing I did was dig in literal tons of organic stuff. I tried a lot of stuff but now I would say horse manure and biochar are all I am going to use in the future. And of course lots of mulch. Never bare! In fact I recently made a ton of awesome soil just by covering woodchips with horse poo for a year.

If it was me and I had years to wait I would just rip the ground up and put anything carbon based into the soil. And I would definitely try to get as much biochar in there as I could because it'll last. The thing is, is Wyoming. Not a lot of trees around in most places and I think most people spread the manure unlike here where a lot of folks have small horse properties and will load your truck up for free.

Have you experienced the wind yet? The ground animals? I'm not sure where you are in Wyoming. I'm in Laramie County. It's an experience. Living here is an experience. I'm interested in what kind of surface or ground water you have set up. Water rights, big deal here. HUGE! At the same time there is a lot of freedom here. It's a type of personality that just minds their bizness.

elle sagenev wrote:Have you experienced the wind yet? The ground animals? I'm not sure where you are in Wyoming. I'm in Laramie County. It's an experience. Living here is an experience. I'm interested in what kind of surface or ground water you have set up. Water rights, big deal here. HUGE! At the same time there is a lot of freedom here. It's a type of personality that just minds their bizness.

I think we picked the perfect few days to be there when we looked at the property. Not terribly windy and the weather was nice, was I. Late July if I remember right. I quite honestly was worried the world might take a bad turn and I wanted something that I could call mine and eek out an existence on if I absolutely had to.

It’s outside of Casper, so the loads of antelope I saw there helped seal the deal.

If I’m honest, I think we jumped the gun and bought without doing our due diligence, but it was less than most cars cost, so it’s not like we sunk our life savings into it. So now my plan is to see if it’s something we can work with and decide if the juice is worth the squeeze, in such a harsh climate.

B. Line wrote:

elle sagenev wrote:Have you experienced the wind yet? The ground animals? I'm not sure where you are in Wyoming. I'm in Laramie County. It's an experience. Living here is an experience. I'm interested in what kind of surface or ground water you have set up. Water rights, big deal here. HUGE! At the same time there is a lot of freedom here. It's a type of personality that just minds their bizness.

I think we picked the perfect few days to be there when we looked at the property. Not terribly windy and the weather was nice, was I. Late July if I remember right. I quite honestly was worried the world might take a bad turn and I wanted something that I could call mine and eek out an existence on if I absolutely had to.

It’s outside of Casper, so the loads of antelope I saw there helped seal the deal.

If I’m honest, I think we jumped the gun and bought without doing our due diligence, but it was less than most cars cost, so it’s not like we sunk our life savings into it. So now my plan is to see if it’s something we can work with and decide if the juice is worth the squeeze, in such a harsh climate.

Casper is much the same as where I am. I don't know that I saw how many acres you bought but I can tell you quite clearly that if you shoot an antelope without a tag you will be prosecuted. Our game and fish department means business. We defend tons of people at work. Unless you have 125 acres you cannot get a land owner tag. Just FYI.

July is basically no wind here. So you have not begun to experience the wonders of Wyoming yet. lol Not to scare you, just reality here.

Jill Winger of The Prairie Homestead lives between Casper and Cheyenne so you can look at her blog for stuffs.

I've been very focused on fruit trees myself and it's been not great. However there are apricot orchards and some very old german apple trees dotted around Wyoming so it's more than possible.  Water will be a big obstacle and wind. It's -25 here today so that's a bit of a challenge too.

However! Where I lived, up near Sheridan, they were practically begging people to take antelope and deer. You could grab 5 doe tags at a time! Elk was a different story, it's a lottery. Another thing is Wyomin isdirt cheap for hunting and fishing licences for residents but through the roof for visitors. Unlike stupid California where its just stupid high for everybody...

I liked Wyoming a lot, in the summer. The Bighorns are an amazing playground. Good camping, great fishing. In the winter it sucked. Nothing to do, no public land, crap library, only a single good restaurant (and it was $$$$!!!) and the local brewery was garbage. It was pretty windy but I like windy.

Wyoming is where I grew my first clay garden. It sucked. Miracle grow my ass.

Have you looked into hugel trenches?  Trenches don't have to be maintained the way hugel mounds do, and it doesn't matter if rodents get into the trenches.  They are a long-term effort, and work wonders with clay or any soil.

Native trees for windbreaks, for a future house or cabin site and a garden site.

I second the wood chips (as opposed to bark chips, but use what you can get), and manure on them, since nitrogen (in manure) breaks down carbon (in the buried wood.)

Obviously no treated wood.  

The greener it is, the longer it takes to break down.  If you want to grow in it right away, it should be breakable with your foot.  I put a second layer of really rotted wood, that I can twist and break with my hands, 6 inches down in a garden bed.

Dan Fish wrote:However! Where I lived, up near Sheridan, they were practically begging people to take antelope and deer. You could grab 5 doe tags at a time! Elk was a different story, it's a lottery. Another thing is Wyomin isdirt cheap for hunting and fishing licences for residents but through the roof for visitors. Unlike stupid California where its just stupid high for everybody...

Make sure you spell your name right and follow the law and make sure you are a real Wyoming resident before you check that box. Don't cheat us here, we got nothing to do but check crap and prosecute! ;)

Cristo Balete wrote:Have you looked into hugel trenches?  Trenches don't have to be maintained the way hugel mounds do, and it doesn't matter if rodents get into the trenches.  They are a long-term effort, and work wonders with clay or any soil.

Native trees for windbreaks, for a future house or cabin site and a garden site.

I second the wood chips (as opposed to bark chips, but use what you can get), and manure on them, since nitrogen (in manure) breaks down carbon (in the buried wood.)

Obviously no treated wood.  

The greener it is, the longer it takes to break down.  If you want to grow in it right away, it should be breakable with your foot.  I put a second layer of really rotted wood, that I can twist and break with my hands, 6 inches down in a garden bed.

Good luck finding wood for hugel around Casper. :P

Welcome to Permies. I grew up in Casper, there are some colder places in Wyoming, but we were always able to have a respectable garden. There are a few Permies in Wyoming. Just put "Wyoming" in the top center search tile. Miles Flansburg posts often and he would be SW of Casper. Mabe he can give you some positive real time experiences.

B Line wrote:

If I’m honest, I think we jumped the gun and bought without doing our due diligence, but it was less than most cars cost, so it’s not like we sunk our life savings into it. So now my plan is to see if it’s something we can work with and decide if the juice is worth the squeeze, in such a harsh climate.

Are you into research? There are plenty of examples around the world of committed people using outside the box ideas to change or help recover a landscape - maybe you're the next Greg Judy or Brad Lancaster or Hugh Wilson (New Zealand)?

elle sagenev wrote:

Good luck finding wood for hugel around Casper.

I've never been to Casper, but many places have broken packing skids people beg you to take. Look for ones that say "HT" for heat treated. I've broken them up and used them for hugel material, although usually ones that are already somewhat rotting.
There's a lady that used them to build fences by putting them in a line with cross ones to support. I've read that fences or shrubbery with gaps, helps to slow the wind, giving a better chance for species you want to get a foot-hold.

One of the first things we're told to do in permaculture is "observe". However, in a damaged landscape, you may need to "observe" what used to be there, and consider what you can do to mimic that?  Good luck, whatever you try, and try to learn from what doesn't work, rather than be discouraged by it.

I am north central WY(outside Greybull) in heavy clay soils with shale rock taking over anywhere from inches down to just about 3 feet down.  From there down it is shale rock.  This area is 4 to 6 inches of precip a year.(notice that is drier than nearly every major desert in the world and irrigation is essential here)  Soils are high salt and unmoderated pH is 8 to 8.5 with a bit in the 8.7 range.  Most of it is 8.4 to 8.5

So I will tell you what we did wrong first.  We moved onto a barren hillside in 1984.  Greasewood and prickly pear.   We leveled the garden area a bit, rototilled and simply watered the first year.  Some crops but poor.  Killed all tomatoes put in the soil because it turns out that greasewood is aleopathic to tomatoes.  It takes several years of irrigation to neutralize this.  That first year you could run water down a row for 24 hours and just inches away from the water have powder dry soil.  The dirt was basically waterproof.  For the next 20 years we tilled in truck loads of manure, truck loads of straw, truck loads of gypsum, soil sulphur, iron and various other soil sciences recommended fixes.  After 20+ years of this the soil was better but still not good.  Soil pH is still 7.4 to 7.5 in spite of having thrown the whole loads of stuff at it.  Water will soak out but isn't going down real well beyond about 2 shovel depths.  We brought a bunch of noxious weeds in with the manure and with some cheap chicken feed so fighting lots of weed problems.

Then in 2006 my mother developed what was eventually determined to be cancer and the garden fell by the wayside.  In the process the first year I did do 2 rows of potatoes and to bury them in mulch I mowed the foxtail and quack grass to cover the potatoes.  Then later I used the seeding lawn grass clippings too.  Ended up with a mulch layer about 6 feet wide and nearly 2 feet deep over the potatoes.  Raked it back and lifted the spuds off the ground(no digging).  Then sort of leveled it leaving a layer of mulch about 10 feet wide and 60 feet long,  Then for the next 4 years all I did with the whole garden space was sprinkle it regularly and mow the foxtail heads down any time they started to form as a fire control measure with the mower set at its lowest setting.  In the fall I mowed the lawn grass seed heads next to it down and where I had gotten the bunch of grass started in the mulch area aiming that seed out and mowing long.  4 to 5 years later the whole area is lawn grass with almost no fox tail.  But the big thing was the quality of the soil under the mulch area.(the original mulch is long since gone)  It is super absorbent with the popcorn texture and lots of earth worms.  The sprinkler will run for nearly a day before any water starts to run off.  Soil is rich and dark and both feels different and looks different than before the 5 year run of benign neglect.

Then in about 2014 I got to a modern soils/carbon building class and understood the why.

In about 2016 had health problems which lead to money being tight and lost the pump.  Killed most of the trees I had spent the last 30+ years establishing that summer.  The few trees that survived were very drought resistant varieties or were in places that got just a big more natural water concentrated.(or both)

So what would I do different?

1.  quit using the rototiller early in the process.  For the first bit it is probably essential while leveling stuff, getting the first organic mixed in rock hard clay soil, controlling debris and other steps.  Add any amendments that need to be tilled in at this point planning for the future.(so soils test early) Would also add wood or wood chips at this point for longer lasting moisture pipelines into the ground.  Straw works but has to be replaced every year and that destroys soil carbon.  Funny thing is good soil is easily worked with hand tools.  In fact once you are below the strong root zone can dig it with your bare hands.  But to get there you need to stop tilling.

2.  In the garden area tear up some of the deep shale rock with the backhoe to allow better moisture penetration.  Probably add some deep hugelkulture also to encourage deep moisture and maybe some deep biochar too.

3.  Once the ground is leveled and beginning stuff tilled in I would concentrate on a grow anything strategy.  The whole purpose to build mulch and build soil carbon.  If you can only grow weeds, great.  They are still building soil carbon.  Control a few noxious ones but anything else that will grow is good.  Don't till.  Mow to create mulch layers.  Good ones in this areas for starter stuff is kochia and foxtail simply because they grow easily and produce lots of biomass.  Sprinklers because it is the only way to get this water proof soil wet steadily as nothing grows without water.  Add seeds steadily for nitrogen fixer, biomass producers and especially anything with a deep tap root to break up the soils and allow better future moisture penetration.  Once you can grow a mulch to chop and drop start trying to bring in earth worms.  This also applies in any future tree locations as well as garden space.  Basically follow the soil carbon building information.

4.  Recognize early that a number of things I want to grow I can't in this soil.  That means raised beds etc.  For example raspberries won't take this soil.  They can be grown in hills of sandy soil on top or in raised beds.  Build for durabilty of the raised beds.  I don't want to spend lots of time in the future maintaining them.

5.  Design for water control.  I don't want a single drop of water running off the property if possible.  Swales, contours etc combined with hugelkulture.

6.  Do more work for each tree location in an effort to increase water storage, provide tap root etc.  To try deep water tubes, deep hugelkulture NOT under the tree but close, planting from seed to give the tree the best chance of forming a tap root,  tear up the rock deep with backhoe to hopefully give best chance of tap root, wide level bed areas to encourage root spread at the surface as well.  Work on organic soil building ahead of planting the tree especially deep root annuals to hopefully improve water penetration.

7.  Plan for snow fences to increase the moisture held on the property.  Maybe add wind breaks where the drifts form to eventually collect snow from even higher in the air?

Ok so on a real note the mulch does work but you have to be picky about what you use because it blows away. If you can get wheat straw that would be ideal because they don't spray the wheat here. Hay and straw is otherwise sprayed so be careful what you buy.

I tried just planting things. I've had success with sainfoin. I actually really enjoy my sainfoin field and would proclaim it my biggest success.

Disrupting the wind is good. Mini kraters have done that as have swales, but just laying dead trees down does the same. Whenever a tree dies in the tree line we just throw it's carcass out to disrupt the wind. Collects tumbleweeds and snow.

Our biggest problem has been that all these things also collect ground squirrels and rabbits which kill everything we plant.

Alfalfa has grown well in the swales but no where else.

Regular grass mix has been growing just fine but it's not the most impressive thing ever. Our neighbors had seed drilled in and it basically didn't grow. It takes luck to get things going here. When we planted our sainfoin field we had one of the wettest springs we'd had in ages. That amazing level of water grew our seed. We planted the grass seed that year as well. It was a big seed year for us. 2 years ago it was one of the dryest springs ever and nothing grew.

Even out in the sainfoin field, which is 5 years old at this point, the soil is pretty unchanged. It's as crappy now as it ever has been. I've debated mowing it down before, so that the stalks cover the soil. I haven't though. It's not the thickest field ever and I really want it to go to seed every year so that it can spread into the gaps. The dry spring we had 2 years ago stunted the sainfoin growth that year. It was less than a foot tall that year where it can normally get 3ish feet tall. Weather. Everything relies on it where you don't have an irrigation well and system.

What if you dug a trench a foot or two deep and filled the trench with whatever woody debris you could find (Jay's pallet idea is genius) mixed with the soil into a sunken hugel trench sort of thing, in a circle?  In essence, you would be making a doughnut that would hold moisture around a planting area.  The size of the inner planting area would probably be dependent on the width and depth of the trench.  I would think you could plant a tree in the middle of a small one that had an inside circle of say 4-6 feet across.  You would still have to water the tree to get it established but the trench might hold enough water that the roots would grow into them and water the tree after some amount of time.  You may be able to make small garden areas the same way.  If you connected them together, you would eventually have a large area that was all amended that way.  It would be labor intensive to be sure, but as an "over the years" type project, it would be doable.  It would be easy enough to try to see if it would work to get a couple of trees going.  Anything you get growing in tough areas helps create a network for more things to grow.

I really appreciate all the replies here! Lots to think about and learn for sure.
And just to address the antelope thing, I’d definitely not go shoot one without a tag, i don’t fish without a license, so couldn’t imagine taking a large animal like that without the tag.

I’m really glad I found this website though, it popped up as I was searching around hugelkultur online. Everyone here is helpful so far, I like it. Thank you all. We will be going there late April/early may to probably get a dose of reality that winter is still there at that time of year!

Please do keep us informed of how you get on. We can all learn from each other, that's one of the nice things of sharing here - what doesn't work on one place may well work in another or in a different way.

This new excerpt from our Garden Master Course looks at the significance of soil texture and includes some good information about balancing your soil. Which may be helpful to take a look.