Site with poor aspect

South West facing block (we are in the southern hemisphere).

Hi all, my hubby and I have been looking for bigger land, that's still close into town, and a place we can afford has finally come up! 1.75 acres, and sloped (approx 10°).

The catch is that it faces south west.

I've gardened terrible sandy soils before, and low lying boggy ones with no slope at all, but I've never tried anything that simply faces the wrong way.

The internet tells me that
A) it's a terrible idea as fruit and veg production must be North facing, and that (according to solar panel calculators the block will receive nearly 30% less solar energy than optimum aspect and angle land.

AND at the same time

B) that in climates where water access is what limits growth (eg, Australian summers), South facing blocks actually show increased productivity, soil organic matter and vegetative production. (These studies are done on forest ecosystems, not agricultural systems).

Does anyone have first hand successes, failures or feedback on whether it's worth trying? Or any knowledge of whether the decreased solar energy will effect yield, growing season length, or something else entirely?

Our land (Northern Hemisphere) faces east and slightly north. I know it put off other prospective buyers as we have been told as much by one of them!

We also have large, mature trees on several boundaries and a partially sloped site.

You'd expect that this all adds up to low light and cooler conditions but, in our experience, this hasn't been a problem. We found a flat, fertile spot for our veg growing area and, whilst it might not be perfect in terms of light and shelter from the wind, we still managed to produce many thousands of calories last year.

We had a very cold snap in December and I noticed that our growing area lies in a frost pocket. This is because the mature trees prevent the evening sun from thawing the soil - there was a very visible line of frost where they cast their shade. I also suspect that the exposed soil of our raised beds (I know, it's not ideal - next year we will use a cover crop or a compostable mulch) contributed. The flip side of this, however, is that our growing area is covered in falling leaves each autumn which helps keep the organic matter in the soil high.

My advise would be to go for it. Permaculture is a great system for making marginal, imperfect land productive and vibrant. You might not be able to produce as well as you might on perfect land (if such a thing existed) but, in reality, there is always going to be a compromise (location, acreage, aspect, soil type, neighbours...).

Hugels, berms, mounds and other earthworks may be useful in "correcting" your slop or aspect, for smaller portions of your land. Also, creating microclimates with trees and other planting can create smaller heat islands for the more tender crops. Alternatively, you could try to focus on what will be happy with your conditions - on our site, for example, certain fruit plants would struggle (kiwi, grape, plum, cherry, even some apples) but that simply draws our attention to other species instead (pear, elderberry, raspberry).

A final consideration is that of our changing global climate. The UK has been wracked by unusual and extreme (for us) weather patterns over the past few years and the trends suggest that this is only going to continue. This means longer, drier summers (drought) and wet winters with occasional, fierce cold snaps. Due to this change in conditions, I wonder whether having a site that will be cooler in the summers might not be a bad thing.

My personal experience is that, with well-designed beds and a heavy mulch on the pathways between them, we didn't have to water at all during the long drought last summer (the worst my area has seen since 1976). I suspect that if our site had been south-facing, that might not have been true.

Best of luck with your search and project. It would be great if you could share your journey with us here

Given that the solar panels will produce 30% less energy, Just install 30% more solar panels.
Likewise your fruit trees will have to produce 30% less, either by human culling our it happens naturally, you might just have to plant 30% more fruit tree

Less sun is actually better for leafy vegetables, they are bigger, less stringy, softer and take longer to bolt/flower, so its actually a good thing.

With 1acre you can plant 180fruite trees on 15ft center. I think you have enough land to plant more than enough fruit trees and still have a surplus so go for it and buy the property.

in my area in the northern hemisphere, it’s not uncommon to plant orchards on north-facing slopes, since it can delay flowering enough to avoid late frosts. what kind of grade are we talking about? is there an actual peak that will shade the property, or is it just the aspect that you’re worries about?

As the above people have said 'it depends'.
Partly how close to the equator you are, and therefore what the angle of the sun will be and how much you lose. As well as not getting the sun for as long during the day, the sun that you will get is spread out more so is of lower intensity. This picture I thought illustrates it well:


source

However, if you are in a warmer climate, getting a bit less sun is not necessarily a bad thing. Even in a more northerly (c. 57 deg North) location like mine there are ways of catching more sun and making the most of what sun you do get. I'll never do well with crops that need a warm summer anyhow, but I'm hoping to get some benefit from garden beds that are oriented to the south to collect more sun. My slope faces East, but I have made beds with a southerly slope to give a better solar aspect for what sun I get.


from my project thread

You can hopefully see how much more sun the left hand (South facing) side of the beds are getting. It is too early to say how well this will work, but I'm optimistic for this year coming. Having the slope does make gardening more tricky, but in an area closer to the equator, simply terracing to give a flat surface may be sufficient.

my next door neighbor's garden lot faces south/southwest (also southern hem), she gets all sorts of good stuff. I think the individual site speaks a lot more than general things, as well as what you will plant on it. I have a passionfruit vine that I let "escape" into her yard, so it's on the SSW-facing wall of my garage, and that thing is covered with fruit! And another neighbor has a similar vine on the same orientation- they seem to appreciate it a lot.

I garden in an urban setting and I would happily trade an unshaded SSW facing slope for my current garden that is slopy and shaded by neighboring buildings for half the day. (and yet, I still get amazing yields!)
I'd look around the area and see what other people are growing, what is happy there, and as mentioned, see what you can do to make things work.

We have never had a problem gardening based on which way the property faces.

Observation is the first principle of permaculture.

Visit the property with the intent to use observation.

The morning sun is the coolest.

The afternoon sun is when the property will be hottest.

Visit the property in the afternoon and visualize where a garden would be and where fruit trees would be planted.

Maybe take a sketch pad and draw or sketch your observations.

Luke Mitchell wrote:Our land (Northern Hemisphere) faces east and slightly north. I know it put off other prospective buyers as we have been told as much by one of them!

We also have large, mature trees on several boundaries and a partially sloped site.

Luke, thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response! Your 100,000 calories is incredibly encouraging. You are absolutely right that there is no single perfect piece of land- we are getting more info from council, and boundaries surveyed but I am feeling very much like it is possible, so thankyou! I will definitely share updates if it all goes ahead 🤞

Anne Miller wrote:We have never had a problem gardening based on which way the property faces.

That's great to hear Anne. Do you mind if I ask where in the world you are? Around the tropics my understanding is that it makes very little difference, but in Tasmania it will be significant. Not necessarily unworkable of course! But noticeable.

We have done some observation, but to be honest I'm not so worried about this time of year as winter, and the start and end of the growing season. In our mid summer everywhere is sunny ☀️

Tereza Okava wrote:my next door neighbor's garden lot faces south/southwest (also southern hem), she gets all sorts of good stuff. I think the individual site speaks a lot more than general things, as well as what you will plant on it. I have a passionfruit vine that I let "escape" into her yard, so it's on the SSW-facing wall of my garage, and that thing is covered with fruit! And another neighbor has a similar vine on the same orientation- they seem to appreciate it a lot.

I garden in an urban setting and I would happily trade an unshaded SSW facing slope for my current garden that is slopy and shaded by neighboring buildings for half the day. (and yet, I still get amazing yields!)
I'd look around the area and see what other people are growing, what is happy there, and as mentioned, see what you can do to make things work.

You make an excellent point! When I garden in a suburban block all corners are used for what they can be, regardless of aspect or inconvenient neighbourhood shade. I think I just got caught up in the fact that all the permaculture books have aspect as the key unchangeable.

Nancy Reading wrote: Having the slope does make gardening more tricky, but in an area closer to the equator, simply terracing to give a flat surface may be sufficient.

Unfortunately we are in Tasmania Australia, so not near the equator. We can grow tomatoes, but capsicums require a greenhouse most seasons. I don't want to tip into needing a greenhouse for cucumber and toms too 😂🤞 we eat too many of them.

Also Nancy your site looks fantastic! I have gotten so absorbed in reading the forum today I've achieved little bit have lots of new fabulous ideas 😂

greg mosser wrote:in my area in the northern hemisphere, it’s not uncommon to plant orchards on north-facing slopes, since it can delay flowering enough to avoid late frosts. what kind of grade are we talking about? is there an actual peak that will shade the property, or is it just the aspect that you’re worries about?

That's quite interesting! Figs here tend to be lost to late frosts so perhaps if I can find a prime spot 😂🤞

It's about 15%, or 11°, although some parts are a little steeper and some a little flatter. No particular peak (although a few houses to the north). But I'm aware everything we want will be casting its own massive shadow.

S Bengi wrote:Given that the solar panels will produce 30% less energy, Just install 30% more solar panels.
Likewise your fruit trees will have to produce 30% less, either by human culling our it happens naturally, you might just have to plant 30% more fruit tree

Less sun is actually better for leafy vegetables, they are bigger, less stringy, softer and take longer to bolt/flower, so its actually a good thing.

With 1acre you can plant 180fruite trees on 15ft center. I think you have enough land to plant more than enough fruit trees and still have a surplus so go for it and buy the property.

Thankyou, you are quite right. If it is simply the yield that is reduced it is no real problem. I am more worried about a shortened growing season where the same yield doesn't ripen at all. But I imagine we will learn the land line any other and figure out slowly what can and can't be grown there.

Rachael Koch wrote:

Anne Miller wrote:We have never had a problem gardening based on which way the property faces.

That's great to hear Anne. Do you mind if I ask where in the world you are? Around the tropics my understanding is that it makes very little difference, but in Tasmania it will be significant. Not necessarily unworkable of course! But noticeable.

We have done some observation, but to be honest I'm not so worried about this time of year as winter, and the start and end of the growing season. In our mid-summer everywhere is sunny ☀️

I am in the sunny state of Texas in the US.

I have lived with North facing, East facing, and South Facing, and our current property is West facing.

To me, surrounding trees are much more important.

The way rows are placed also makes a difference.

I would be more concerned about being west-facing than poleward facing in most climates. Shading the house and living things in the afternoon will be more important, but If you are willing to adapt, many things are possible. I agree with the above about utilizing the northern aspect for more chill hours and delaying breaking of dormancy. That helps here where we get a lot of late winter-early spring hail.