Moat instead of pond ?

Have this idea for space saving and having maybe more space for trying fish growing, plus natural fence of digging a moat inside my land 1m away from the claim line .
So question is , will it work and is it viable and is there any way to straighten the walls cheapest as possible of the moat bed  , maybe anyone else tried this idea ?

I have had this same thought.. I want a moat.

Somewhere here on permies there is a similar discussion, but it was more of a "pond with an island" in an effort to reduce predator pressure.

In general, the concept of a "moat" is a good one, as lots of "edge" is generally considered beneficial to permaculture. However, lots of "edge" with a steep drop-off which your interest in "any way to straighten the walls", sounds to me as if animals could fall in and not be able to get back out?

A friend dug me a "settling" pond for water runoff before the water had to go through a culvert so it wouldn't wash out the  roadway. I made him dig out another section to it that had a much more gradual slope so that anything - including humans - that fell in, would be able to easily climb out.

Depending on the depth and design, you may be creating a huge liability for yourself, not to mention a stinky mess if deer fall in and drown, which I suspect would happen where I live.

So maybe you could give us some more ideas of what your goals are?  What are you trying to fence in or out? How wide do you figure this moat has to be? How deep would it need to be for the fish you're thinking of be able to survive?

Jay Angler wrote:

So maybe you could give us some more ideas of what your goals are?  What are you trying to fence in or out? How wide do you figure this moat has to be? How deep would it need to be for the fish you're thinking of be able to survive?

Well i was thinking of a moat inside my land not at the claim line maybe couple of meters away from it , from fully encloses O to something more "U" shaped , thinking about it instead just a pond , usability for it would be for trying my hand in aquaponics and fish growing plus as a nice feature in my land and some kind of "fencing" for inner vegetable garden .Looking for suggestions and ides in the depth and with of it .
I was looking into earthbag retaining walls or the concrete cloth idea , dont know yet how my deeper ground is , maybe its full of clay  so there might be something there too .
The size of my claim itself is about ~1ha/~2,4 acres
Living a temperate climate zone with all 4 seasons

Lordas Zame wrote:  I was looking into earthbag retaining walls or the concrete cloth idea , dont know yet how my deeper ground is , maybe its full of clay  so there might be something there too .
The size of my claim itself is about ~1ha/~2,4 acres
Living a temperate climate zone with all 4 seasons

From your description, I feel a pond liner would be a lot easier and cheaper than the retaining walls or concrete cloth (I never heard of this).

Just make it in the "U' shape as you have described:

https://permies.com/t/214280/Tiny-urban-pump-pond

I also like this person's idea of using a hugelkulture bed instead of retaining walls:

https://permies.com/t/15067/permaculture/build-hugel-bed-moat-tree

Here are some other threads on building moats for you or others:

https://permies.com/t/151233/Multi-purpose-moat-practical

https://permies.com/t/121153/Building-moat

Lordas Zame wrote:The size of my claim itself is about ~1ha/~2,4 acres
Living a temperate climate zone with all 4 seasons

That just got me thinking of more questions!
So have you considered where this water is going to  come from and travel to? Stagnant water can be a problem.

There are many permaculture examples of people planning a series of small ponds with "streams" or "swales" connecting them - look at Sepp Holzer's work in particular, as he raises fish in his. I believe he makes sure there are "marshy" zones within the system so that baby fish get a chance to grow before being eaten by things that like to eat fish, like bigger fish.

I read years ago that the Bullock Brothers on Orca Island had enough elevation to do similar to Sepp, but they used a solar pump at the bottom of their slope to pump the water back up to the top. The had to make sure their system incorporated natural ways to aerate and clean the water.

Have you heard of "chinampas"? There are different words for a similar concept (and different depths of water between the raised beds, and some designs just fill the beds with compostable stuff and others dredge the bottoms of the deep parts etc etc...)  but there is evidence these were used in several ecosystems on the west side of the Americas. They can be incredibly productive ecosystems if you can choose plants that benefit from this approach for your ecosystem.

Building resilience into a system means not being completely dependent on something like electricity 24/7. The Bullocks system only pumped when the sun shone, and I suspect in a pinch, could go several days without becoming so stagnant that things died. Former owners where I live now, built a small, artificial pond system and it was completely dependent on both well water and electricity, and constant attention, so that didn't last long when we bought! Now it grows duckweed which at least keeps the mosquitoes down, but weather weirding has hurt our frog population badly, so it no longer seems to support them. Developing a system that will be mostly self-supporting is not easy, but it is possible.

Also consider the ecosystems developed by what in Canada are called, "Oxbow lakes".  Unfortunately, I don't think they form on anything as small as 1 hectare, but looking at how they do form and imitating nature on a smaller scale, may help give you ideas. At least they have the "U" shape you're looking for (and the pictures are beautiful!), and they're found all over the planet.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-an-oxbow-lake.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxbow_lake

A moat with a portcullis. Keeps deer out, lets pollinators in. I like it!

Jay Angler wrote:Also consider the ecosystems developed by what in Canada are called, "Oxbow lakes".  Unfortunately, I don't think they form on anything as small as 1 hectare, but looking at how they do form and imitating nature on a smaller scale, may help give you ideas. At least they have the "U" shape you're looking for (and the pictures are beautiful!), and they're found all over the planet.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-an-oxbow-lake.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxbow_lake

Jay beat me to it!

I like the idea of a moat, because it would distribute water widely.
If you  build it with one steep side and one sloped side, you would adress the concerns about animals getting trapped.
The soil from the digging could be piled on the vertical side.
I think planting willow stakes along the steep edge could help keep it vertical.
With an earthen berm, willow hedge and a steep drop, you will have a lot of tresspasser deterrent qualities in one place.
I imagine boating around the perimeter, harvesting duckweed or azolla for green manure and lots of waterfowl.

William Bronson wrote:I like the idea of a moat, because it would distribute water widely.
If you  build it with one steep side and one sloped side, you would adress the concerns about animals getting trapped.
The soil from the digging could be piled on the vertical side.
I think planting willow stakes along the steep edge could help keep it vertical.
With an earthen berm, willow hedge and a steep drop, you will have a lot of tresspasser deterrent qualities in one place.
I imagine boating around the perimeter, harvesting duckweed or azolla for green manure and lots of waterfowl.

Interesting idea ,maybe you could do a quick sketch and post it here ?

Lordas Zame wrote:

William Bronson wrote:I like the idea of a moat, because it would distribute water widely.
If you  build it with one steep side and one sloped side, you would adress the concerns about animals getting trapped.
The soil from the digging could be piled on the vertical side.
I think planting willow stakes along the steep edge could help keep it vertical.
With an earthen berm, willow hedge and a steep drop, you will have a lot of tresspasser deterrent qualities in one place.
I imagine boating around the perimeter, harvesting duckweed or azolla for green manure and lots of waterfowl.

Interesting idea ,maybe you could do a quick sketch and post it here ?

Is this a mega-swale?

If you're not totally averse to an "O"-shaped moat, you may want to consider a pillow island as a way to keep rabbits.

I first read about these in a forum thread here, and was instantly fascinated...

https://permies.com/t/209413/Pillow-Mounds-Rabbit-Islands-Ancient