Reality of land separate from property

Hello all!

So slowly but steadily (or perhaps more rapidly than in my previous 20 years of awareness of this issue) I am getting more and more worried about this world. Between the chance of the world heating up beyond the 1.5c in the next 4 years and the fairly serious droughts here in NW Europe, I am more actively looking at land to buy to start partially living off/with.

As I would like to remain here (all friends and family live within 10h travel (depending on the mode of transport )), my chances of buying land (2-4 acres) and a renovation project/property together is going to be tough financially, but buying the 2 separately but close together is much more feasible, I was wondering whether this is also feasible from a practical point of view.

Most of the land I can acquire where I would like, when it's zoned as agricultural land, means I can't build anything on it. That includes a shed for storage of needed equipment. I would have a vehicle with trailer to transport between the actual property and the land. I know (some) large scale farmers of course have to drive larger distances than I would have to, but they also have larger equipment.

Would it be truly feasible for me to have a property in 1 place, and a piece of agricultural land a couple of km down the road?

Thanks!

It is very hard to do.

My grandfather has a farm 7 miles away from his house and over the years he has made it work, but it has cost him dearly. It’s just a lot of money tied up in fuel and other costs to get there.

Here in the U.S. would be concerned about theft.   Transportation might also be a factor

Hi Niels,
I think it could possible work, but would be difficult. If you are raising some sort of livestock for meat or using that land for hay/straw for instance, it might not be so bad. But there are so many things on a farm that need attention at all hours. I think it would suffer not being in the same spot.

Having said that, if this is your only option to buy inside the circle you want to be in... it may be a sacrifice you are willing to make.

To try to think about this from a different angle... a 10 hour driving distance is a pretty big chunk of land. And I wonder if you would be better off finding something a bit farther away that was all together. The reason I suggest this, is how many times are you going to have to go visit the chicks in a brooder? or check on sheep birthing? And how many times are you going to visit that family or friend who is 10 hours away? Would 11 hours really make that much of a difference? Especially when you remember that growing your own food and being more sustainable means being on the property a lot more than people think. You may not have as much time to visit as you do now.

I currently have two smallish orchards. One is a 15 minute drive away from where I live, and the other is an hour and 45 minutes. The reality is that what you do with the property is just as important as how far away it is. For example, a 1.75 hr drive to the far orchard might be perfectly acceptable if you're only doing the drive once every other month. In contrast, if you have livestock and need to visit the property several times a day, the one that is 15 minutes away might be too far.

Some people do that, and I believe it was quite common back in the days when most people lived, for safety, inside the walls of their town, while farming land outside the town walls.  It is not very convenient, though, and it takes real dedication to keep on top of things at the agricultural property, simply because in order to get there you have to make an effort.  And you won't know what is going on there when you aren't there.  So, for instance, if you have a garden outside your bedroom window, and something gets in there at night and starts to destroy your garden, your dog is likely to bark and alert you so you can do something about it.  But if your property is three miles down the road, you won't know anything has happened until the next time you visit the property.

It can be done, but it takes dedication and commitment, more so than having your gardens and animals just outside your house.

I used to have many clients who had been subsistence farmers.  Many had a few small plots of land planted with different crops. They would have a little shed or leanto on the further properties and camp there during times when those particular crops needed tending.

Having a small plot of land or a dacha to grow food outside of town is still very common in Eastern Europe. Usually some family member ( retired grandparent, children on summer break) will spend significant time there during the growing season.

In former times, I believe it was common in many parts of the world to have a “summer” village near farm fields and a sturdier “winter” village in a more protected site.

So it’s definitely possible. May be more difficult if you have a year-round 9-5 job.

Niels van Wensen wrote:Would it be truly feasible for me to have a property in 1 place, and a piece of agricultural land a couple of km down the road?

If you can manage to keep it the "couple of km", that's biking distance. Check out the " https://permies.com/t/53867/Show-Hauling-Bike " thread for ideas of simple trailers, some which are home-built/upcycled. Now with electric bikes (see some of the cargo bikes) there's a lot that can be done.

I admit that it is worth trying hard to keep the gap less than 5 km if possible. Even then, you may have to focus on things like a food forest vs a kitchen garden. Hopefully you can find housing that has at least the space for culinary herbs which you use fresh. I have chives, oregano, sage, rosemary, parsley and marjoram near my front door, but I have some of the same further from my house for drying for winter.

I'd say the key issue is whether or not family is on-board. You mention "friends and family" but not specifically if any of these live with you. Farming, particularly in the building up stage, is a major time commitment. Theft is a big issue in some places, but no issue at all in others, but I'm not sure how to determine that in advance. However, one way to mitigate it, is to grow things that many people don't recognize as food. Many people know what a tomato looks like. Not so many, know what a tomatillo looks like, or they think Stinging Nettle is a nasty bother rather than a nutritious spring crop that makes tasty pesto!

So I guess I'm saying that you need to think about what you want to do with the land, what grows well in the area, and what you want to eat.  

And wrote:

That includes a shed for storage of needed equipment.

Is there no minimal size on that prohibition? Here 100 sq feet can be built pretty much anywhere. You won't be able to get a "residency permit", but you can build a sturdy shed to hold shovels etc. There's a chance that the people who told you "no shed" meant no shed large enough to house a tractor. Also, in many areas, putting the shed on "skids" so it's considered portable, makes it legal. I wouldn't push the limits as attracting attention is probably not a good idea, but sometimes there are ways around the rules. Buy a cheap, damaged van, and park it there for locked storage? Grow a vine over it, to make it less obvious? Be creative!

Best of luck whatever you decide, and please post updates!

Hello, Niels,

I relate to the same eco-anxiety. But I take a different approach. My take is that staple crops require too much an investment, wish you have potatoes, wheat or whatever that fills the belly, it needs heavy equipment if you want it to be profitable. And if you don't want it profitable, probably you won't be able to pay for the costs. Because staple food is (still) dirt cheap. On the other hand, vegetables and fruits are quite expensive, the quality of the food we find in groceries is questionable and it's hard to find it fresh. Ecologically, it makes sense for me to grow a market garden for my family also, since vegetables require a cold chain distribution and many intermediaries. From a health point of view, the fresh vegetables, being more fresh, must be richer in vitamins. Maybe from an economical point of view it is not so much profitable, but it's something you can treat like a hobby. A healthy and ecological hobby.

If you remove staple food from the equation, then you don't need so much land. Maybe a middle sized house with a large backyard is enough. A friend has a small orchard and his market garden in a 250m2 property, the backyard being 100 m2 approximately. He also has a few laying hens. His production is rather low, he is not allowed to use irrigation from the well (cause the draught) and he didn't take any step for rainwater harvesting or graywater use. Had he that extra water and more time, I'd say he could feed eggs and vegs to his family for half of the year.

I don't know how it is in France, but in Spain you are not allowed to have more than 6 hens without a permission. The permission involves being a declared farmer who pays his taxes as farmer and passing inpections on his exploitation regularly. Here in Europe, if you want to feed others, you have lots of red tape to complain.
This is why I see more potential in the gardening route.

That said, if you really want to take the farming route, then I'd say that my family had been growing crops in a land that was 10 km away from the appartment, my grandfather and uncles commuted daily to work on the fields, mostly in their cars, but also by bus. Theft was always a concern, but being there every day helped. Guard dogs also helped. They had to park the tractor inside the tool shed every day. And they made a life like that, so it was feasible. The real problem was selling the product. Big distributors like Carrefour pay too low and demands quantity and timing, and co-ops, while paying better, sometimes weren't able to sell everything.
But if you want farm animals, then you really need to live nearby.

Thank you all so much for all the great responses! I'll respond to them all to keep it a bit tidier.

In general:

Yes, I am looking to keep it within a 5km (3.11 miles) range.
Reading through the comments, perhaps an approach with lower regular demands for maintenance, such as a food forest or orchard isn't a bad idea and the latter can potentially provide income in time.

Jay Angler wrote:  simple trailers, some which are home-built/upcycled

I am indeed thinking of making use of a bike trailer in that case! Cheaper to run and, provided I don't go overly big good for transporting tools.

Jay Angler wrote:  I'd say the key issue is whether or not family is on-board.

In this case I am lucky that none of my family would need to move with me, although at least some of them would be glad to pop over to help out with the initial set up/move, and the odd week away to enjoy the countryside.
Although quite remote, as agricultural theft is on the up anyway it's still something to keep in mind, now you mention it.

Jay Angler wrote: Is there no minimal size on that prohibition?

There's areas where there is no wiggle room at all unfortunately, however at the same time France is Southern enough to be a bit flexible. Provided you become friendly with the local Maire.
In the mean time, as you said without attracting too much attention, I was thinking to perhaps build a storage similar to a root cellar. Provided it can be obscured from the road until I am friendly with said Maire.

Mk Neal wrote: I used to have many clients who had been subsistence farmers.

I guess that would be similar to an allotment, so that would make sense.

Abraham Palma wrote:Hello, Niels,

I relate to the same eco-anxiety. But I take a different approach. My take is that staple crops require too much an investment, wish you have potatoes, wheat or whatever that fills the belly, it needs heavy equipment if you want it to be profitable.

If you remove staple food from the equation, then you don't need so much land. Maybe a middle sized house with a large backyard is enough. A friend has a small orchard and his market garden in a 250m2 property, the backyard being 100 m2 approximately. He also has a few laying hens. His production is rather low, he is not allowed to use irrigation from the well (cause the draught) and he didn't take any step for rainwater harvesting or graywater use. Had he that extra water and more time, I'd say he could feed eggs and vegs to his family for half of the year.

That said, if you really want to take the farming route, then I'd say that my family had been growing crops in a land that was 10 km away from the appartment, my grandfather and uncles commuted daily to work on the fields, mostly in their cars, but also by bus. Theft was always a concern, but being there every day helped. Guard dogs also helped. They had to park the tractor inside the tool shed every day. And they made a life like that, so it was feasible. The real problem was selling the product. Big distributors like Carrefour pay too low and demands quantity and timing, and co-ops, while paying better, sometimes weren't able to sell everything.
But if you want farm animals, then you really need to live nearby.

I like this view of things a lot. A different, viable and perhaps to start off with better approach.

Keeping chickens shouldn't be too much of a problem. Anything under 250 chickens is a municipality issue, so it depends on where I would end up before I can find exact numbers. From what I've found in the last while up to 50 chickens shouldn't be an issue. Which is way more than I was contemplating anyway!

There are properties with around 2/3 of an acre, at which point a no dig approach could provide a decent amount of food.



All in all these messages are still encouraging whilst also providing an excellent different view of things which does make everything somewhat more viable I believe.

Thank you, thank you!