Reforestation - Growing trees in arid, barren lands - by Seeds and Clay cubes (no watering)

After they were suggested on this thread, I got some caper seeds from Italy via ebay.co.uk. Cost a couple of euro incl postage and arrived in less than a week.

Haven't planted them yet, got some end of month deadlines to deal with then will get to them.

Edit just checked ebay and they came from Lithuania not Italy. Item number: 261738612518

Hello Xisca,

Is the cardo mariano the common milk thistle ?

It will be interesting to see if the scolymus hispanicus can be established there.

I tried to plant capers by seed and did not succeed (by simply putting them in the ground and waiting to see what happens - nothing happened). This spring I cut a wild caper plant, took a part of its root system and placed it in pots - I think I may get about 10 plants, which I will plant throughout the farm and the surrounding area - hopefully they will spread - it's early to call it a success, but it appears to be going well.

Kostas

Nice to see you are still hard at work Kostas. Following this thread gives me great joy!

The people in this forum are amazing Elle !!!

Konstantinos Karoubas wrote:Hello Xisca,

Is the cardo mariano the common milk thistle ?

It will be interesting to see if the scolymus hispanicus can be established there.

I tried to plant capers by seed and did not succeed (by simply putting them in the ground and waiting to see what happens - nothing happened). This spring I cut a wild caper plant, took a part of its root system and placed it in pots - I think I may get about 10 plants, which I will plant throughout the farm and the surrounding area - hopefully they will spread - it's early to call it a success, but it appears to be going well.

Kostas

yes, milk thistle!
must find seeds of the scolymus....
and of capers.
They do not grow wild here, so cannot find a plant to make root cuttings.

Sometimes, the most simple things are not so easy to get as exotic rarities!
I still do not have capers, pistachos...

Hello Xisca,

I will be glad to send you whatever seeds I have - if you think they allow entry there.

Kostas

Hello Kostas,

Some of my apricot kernels are getting moldy. I let them dry for a day and then cracked them open and then put them in a jar. Should I leave the kernels in the stone/shell to store them? Do you plant them in their shell, or do you crack it to get the kernel?

Thanks,

Caleb

Both apricot and caper seeds grow here, but they both seem to like to be stratified. We have a cold winter, down to -21C (-10F)

Apricot seeds get spat out by people eating apricots in July and august, and then sprout all around the gardens the following spring. They stay in their shells, and when you pull up the small sprouts, they look so nice, how they break out of the shell. I don't think it sounds right to remove the shells before planting.

Capers, I collect seeds in September, plant them in desert soil in containers at that time, water them, and put a stone on top to keep them damp all winter. I keep some containers in our solar greenhouses, which go down just a few degrees below freezing for a month of winter nights, or outside, where it's below freezing continuously for months. Both germinate but I think the more protected ones have a better germination rate (like 50%) and start earlier.

Thanks Costas! And whatever I have that would help you....

About kernels, better let them in the shell. I have read about it before, and herre is the difference. They can germinate out of the shell, but it will be too easy for the sprout, and so it will not get strong enough and will be more sensitive. It can be eaten more readily as more tender for example.

Here I have spontaneous almonds, peaches and loquats, and even dates go out of the compost pile! They all come out in spring.
And I have no frosts.

My neighbour brought me a bucket of loquats. I ate what I could for a few days and then dug a hole and threw them all in as complete fruits, that was about 6 weeks ago, let's see if I get a loquat forest.

Hello Caleb, Rebecca, Xisca and, Steve,

It's smart to check the condition of the seeds and see if they are in good shape - there is no point planting bad seeds.

Usually I store the apricot seeds in the basement, inside a paper bag or a wood crate, they should be able to breath and in the shade.

I plant them whole, with their shell in Nov Dec or early Jan - for me here in Greece, there is no need to do any preparation (stratification etc), for the seeds we have been discussing (apple, almond apricot wild pears etc). They do well.

K(C)ostas

APPLE SEEDS

Lately I been eating a lot of fruits - apples in particular - I buy them at a local farmers market from a local (2 hrs away) producer - the apples are almost a year old - they are kept in a frig up to the day they sell them.

I noticed that the seeds in the apples are beginning to sprout - see photo below. I put a few of them in the ground and watered them - now I know it's crazy to put apple seeds in the ground in late May n June, but they were there - throw them away ?

Early indications were that the apples would grow - I kept adding the seeds from the apples I ate, and a seen in the photo below they do grow - hopefully they will survive the summer, and I plan to plant some of the at my farm, and the rest at the areas I am reforesting/ground covering.

The green apples were the ones that have good seeds - some red apples had rotten seeds - before I buy the apple now I look to make sure the seeds are good - the sellers think its....

As previously mentioned, the land around here seems to want to grow apple trees - it takes about 12 - 15 years for an apple tree grown from seed to start producing apples.

Just one apple tree in the forest can have an important impact on the wild life and forest - I am told that all sort of wild animals (bears wild pigs birds deer etc) can benefit from the presence of one apple tree - not to mention that the wild animals may propagate the tree far and wide in the forest if the conditions are right.

Sometimes an irrational act may be may lead to good results.



Kostas

I'm doing the same Kostas - and I use a big bag of Apples every two weeks to make juice for my family - tons of seeds. Right now it is apropos and peach season here (must be in Greece too), and we produce several pits every day - so I've run out of pits and simply burry them where I hope They can grow without irrigation. The amounts of seeds you get from growing what you eat is amazing!

Hello Dawn,

You are right we all should collect all of the seeds from the fruits we eat and then use them to reforest degraded areas. There are plenty of these around.

There should be a seed bank in every region/city where people can go and leave the seeds they have, then volunteers can use them for planting - one group that can get involved is hunters - if each hunter planted 10 seeds when they went hunting in the mountains, soon, there would be more pray for them to hunt, and a more diverse forest system.

What is apropos ? (another name ?)

Kostas

Speaking of

Yes - if the hunters did that and cleaned up after them selves, and we're able to controll their dogs as to not kill my cats... I would let them back on my land my neighbors say the hunters used to be part of the nature preservation, now they are just annoying, and throw plastic garbage in Nature.

We have so many seeds these days I can't seem to get them all planted! Where do I put my avocado-pits? Do I even have enough water to grow them here without irrigation?

I spread seeds from pumpkins, water melon, honeydew, peppers, tomatoes, dates (medjol - that way I hope to get decent dates in the future) nitrogen fixing trees that grow around town. Since we have too much going on here all the time, this is the way I garden 90% of the time - I hope it amounts to a forest some day

How tough is the ground where you plant your trees? Here it is hardpan - seriously yesterday I planted some cherrypits and it could not dig a hole large enough for ten pits with a shovel - so I'll have to bring a pick axe... Or a very sharp hoe maybe?

Got some peaches a few days ago so we've been saving the seeds. After a bit of googling I took the general advice of cracking the nut, soaking the seed, putting it in soil in the fridge etc, so we've got some in the fridge.

Some of the peaches were past their best so we threw them on the garden yesterday to let the bugs eat the flesh before doing the same

Hello Dawn and Steve,

Dawn, I am sorry to hear about the hunters and your cats - it must be difficult - never allow them on your land again - it must be a bad bunch that is in the area, and need to be disciplined/fined and evicted - most of them are responsible individuals that care about the land/nature.

I mentioned the hunters, because a lady I met recently, told me the story about her father in-law who passed away about 10 years ago - he was a hunter, and whenever he went hunting, he took a few seeds with him and put them in the ground in the mountains.

I asked her to find the location where her father in law went hunting, so we can document the results of his actions - she said she will try - his friends that he went hunting with, have passed away, so, it may be difficult. I thought it was an interesting story, and an act worth mimicking - if a hunter spends 4 hours in the mountains, the least he can do is spend 5 minutes putting seeds in the ground.

The seeds I put in the ground each year, for reforestation purposes, are placed in the ground in the middle of the winter, as previously discussed - the ground is wet and soft (but not to wet-muddy) from the repeated rains - I wait for soft ground - it's impossible to place 500 seeds an hour in the ground in hard ground. The seeds stay in the ground, in the winter months, nature does its thing (stratification etc), and they are ready to sprout in the spring. Then they have to face the long hot summers and the many other obstacles that come along (wild rabbits etc) - it's a miracles that any survive.

The apple seeds I put in the ground now, are placed in a raised bed with rich soft soil. I protect them from the hot sun, with some straw and water them every day - sometimes twice a day. The refrigeration of the apples, from November till now, mimics nature's stratification cycle - I guess - that's why the seeds sprout so easily. I hoping they will survive, and I will pull them out in December and transplant them - then I hope the transplants will survive - it's a lot of hoping !!!

Dawn, a few years back, I read an article in NY Times about the olive trees in Spain A Spanish Town Withers With the Olive, Its Tree of Life November 03, 2005 - the article said that soil erosion and land degradation, caused many of the trees to wither away - any truth to that article (see http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch/?action=click&contentCollection®ion=TopBar&WT.nav=searchWidget&module=SearchSubmit&pgtype=Homepage#/Spain+olive+trees+drought/) - near Cambil Spain.

If true what has happened since - if you know and care to share it would be appreciated.

Kostas

Last year was the worst year in 100 year ca. - we had nothing - and I mean NOTHING - maybe we could have filled a bucket to pickle, from 300 trees. The rain comes in 5-7 year cycles - on average 50 cm but it can vary between 10-20 cm and 200. But when the big rain event comes, it comes in a few hours. Two years ago was the big event, last year was drought, this winter we've had 40 cm. the old people around here says it's been this way.

The problem is that everything the farmers as well as government does is wrong IMO... They get the water off of the land as fast as they can, because water is dangerous - so there is cement gullies and drainage canals everywhere. And they remove all vegetation below the trees (either by machine or by goats), to prevent fires. In Jaen they irrigate the trees. We made a sunni-bowl underneath the pipe comming out of the road that seperate our land from that of the neighbor a year ago, and it is almost full of dirt now, ready to be built higher.... My friends from Jordan says it looked like Jordan here last year - I think that says almost everything doesn't it? The entire valley here is full of avocado and citrus - all heavily irrigated... The water level is dropping... So I hope to show our neighbors how to make money on this land without destroying it

Wrt plantning trees from seed: I'm pretending to be a squirrel In my thinking squirrels don't wait untill winter to buret seeds and nuts - they do so immediately. So one a week ca. I take this weeks seed production and walk around the land and bury them. The soil is dry so they won't start germinating until it starts raining again this winter. What I am thinking is that if I am planting trees that are natural to the area, it shouldn't have to do much about it. Maybe seed balling it would up the chances of germination, but not seed balling it will mean more seeds get in the ground simply because it is easier.

Hello Dawn,

It's a great idea to plant seeds all summer long, like a squirrel as you say - I wonder which ones will survive in the summer heat and sprout, and survive the next summer - can you please info us on how the effort progresses along - it's a great experiment, and good and useful info will result from it.

Kostas

Sure will

Konstantinos Karoubas wrote:
The apple seeds I put in the ground now, are placed in a raised bed with rich soft soil. I protect them from the hot sun, with some straw and water them every day - sometimes twice a day. The refrigeration of the apples, from November till now, mimics nature's stratification cycle - I guess - that's why the seeds sprout so easily. I hoping they will survive, and I will pull them out in December and transplant them - then I hope the transplants will survive - it's a lot of hoping !!!

I have been doing the same thing. I collected my seeds from apples that I ate last year. I believe they were all stratifying in the fridge by the end of December. I chose this time frame to mimic actual winter, so the timing was correct and the plants won't be sprouting when it's 95F degrees. By the end of April they had all sprouted; some as early as March. I now have about 30 seedlings that have been growing very well, and I recently planted another ~40 sprouts. I haven't been home to check on them, but they should surely be seedlings by now. I live in Texas, USA, a very hot and semi-humid climate. The trees grow very well, and after a few generations they may even sprout on their own (without stratification in the fridge), meaning they'll create their own localized species. That is actually my plan: create my own species capable of growing in semi-arid environments, then marketing that new species. I've done a lot or research on growing apples from seeds, so I know about the seeds not being true to their parents, but I'm hoping at least one of those darn seeds will sprout an edible apple!

I have already had to transplant some. They were about five to six inches tall and they have held up just fine. As long as they are grown in soft soil, they should be fine.

Jon

I posted this peach germination experiment
https://www.facebook.com/TFSForest/photos/a.848157045255677.1073741828.846229912115057/881197298618318/

I was given a bag of sweet wild cherries, and you give me some ideas!

It looks like the wild tart cherry (because of small size), but it is nearly black when ripe, quite sweet though with a stronger taste.
It is not much bigger than blackcurrent and nearly the same color.
They grow wild but only in ravines with a little more humidity than the average, at 1000m high.
I also have some at 500m, but they were planted. And they reseed quite well.

Even grapes seed here, thanks to lezards that propagate them. Canarias is a wine country! By the way loquats also grows wild and wine can be made from it, and also from prickly pears.

Also the only endemic fruit tree, the strawberry tree, but a different variety
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbutus_canariensis

I also have the arbutus undedo, it flowers, but does not fruit, and I do not know why, if anyone has an idea about this?

Cherries from your island? How much water do they need?

I wonder why nothing really wants to grow without irrigation in my place? Young autumn olive, comfrey, oregano - all wilt or do not grow.

We've had very unusual weather this year, and are officially in "moderate drought" conditions right now. Looking ahead, it might be a good idea to plant a few really drought tolerant edibles.
I have one young Manchurian apricot tree that is doing well, but since it was rather expensive I irrigate it. I am not in the best location for apricots, since late freezes are very likely to kill the blooms, but certain years might have some luck. Never heard about anyone growing almonds here, either.

What drought tolerant plants can you recommend for my climate, which is "typical inland Northwestern continental Mediterranean climate, with cold, snowy winters and dry summers with large diurnal temperature swings from hot in the day to very cool at night"? It usually gets to -10F (-20C) during the winter.
We have a variety of herbs like yarrow, dandelions, etc. growing wild, but what about edible shrubs and trees?

Thanks!

Hello Jon,

Sorry for the delay.

Great news on the apples !!! what an exciting idea to create your own species - apples are an important part of the diet of fruitarians and for all of us. Clean, organic apples are hard to find.

Who could have guessed that the apple tree can become a valuable tree for rebuilding the land and the whole ecosystem. I want to keep testing the seeds in the coming years to check their ability to grow without watering and different locations.

Keep us posted on your efforts and findings.

Kostas

Hello Tim,

Sorry for the delay. Roughly, if you can tell us where are you - what is the terrain like?–

Figuring out what your land wants to grow is a challenge - once you know, or at least begin to understand, that's when life begins to get easier and interesting.

Masanobu Fukuoka's books (The Natural Way Of Farming - The Theory and Practice of Green Philosophy) and writings are an excellent source for guidance, in both the farm and the reforestation efforts - he does not distinguish between the farm and the forest.

In my farm, I try to establish as many plants as possible that reseed themselves, or easily grow by seed - I use clay seed balls - or simply scatter the seeds. That's the kind of farming I aspire to - minimum effort.

So far the following are established and doing well, without assistance. Arugula, tordylium apulum, Sonchus oleraceus, chicory, thistle, spotted golden thistle (scolymus maculatus), plantain, chard, oregano, marjoram thyme and mint tea.

I am now trying to establish erba stella, scolymus maculatus in greater numbers (I may cultivate them in raised beds) daikon and leeks. I also planted cactus pads around the perimeter of the farm - it's also useful for reforestation purposes.

Trees that grow easily from seed without assistance we mentioned in this thread almonds apricots laburnum apples wild pears etc - it's interesting - I am testing 6 different locations in Greece - northern and southern and elevations from 100 to 1200 meters. Each location is different, as far as the trees that like to grow there.

Observe what grows by the side of the roads and look at the forested areas and try to guess what nature wants. For example here almond trees and wild pear trees are all over the place, especially next to the roads - to a smaller extend, I see a few apple trees - the intent is to cover the land and to begin to build new soil.

Come October to December - I dig small lines/trenches and throw seeds in (10 at each trench) - note where and what you put in the trench and monitor to see what happens. This gets repeated year after year - from these small tests and observations you will determine what your land wants to grow. Sometimes the answers are right in front of us and we are unable to see them - we just have to keep looking.

If you have bare land, it's important to provide ground cover by trees and plants and to build soil fertility.

Good luck - keep us informed.

Kostas

Hello again Kostas,

While at my parents's place this weekend, in Santa Rosa Sonoma County, CA i saw small, wild plums EVERYWHERE. they were ripe and tasty. Some yellow some red. My mother asked me if there was a cherry tree in our backyard, I went to look and was amazed at the abundance of wild plums growing huge in my yard and all over town. Upon inquiring to my father, he said that our city of Santa Rosa is in fact famous for all its wild plums that the birds and squirrels plant. By the way, this is an area with average 700mm (when we are not in drought years) but fully Mediterranean so that we have no rains from may 'til October or November. My point is, you may want to try mixing plum seeds in there too!!!

Continue to be great,

Caleb

yes up here in the mountains north east of you caleb, we also have a huge amount of naturalized/native wild plums. and totally all the animals really love these trees, you find lots of piles of scat with tons of these cherry plum seeds in them. if you are bold and not afraid of wild animal cooties (!) these seeds are great, having passed through the digestive tract of animals. one can rake them and spread them out, cover them, but even as large piles like that they are spread by animals.

out here there are at least three kinds growing feral, the most common being Prunus Cerasifera, aka the myrobalan plum. a bit tart, often with purple color in the leaves. up on the klamath we have a native local variety, p.subcorda i think its called - the klamath plum. but it is more rare, also more of a bush rather than a tall tree. the most graceful ones are the prunus americana, the taste is sweeter too. the couple i have found that i am pretty sure are p. americana have had yellow fruit, and they have distinct leaves for identifying.

unfortunately, or fortunately maybe, people really take these for granted, most humans think they arent worth harvesting. well this is an abundant place with so many awesome plants and wild foods, but yeah they call them "birdshit plums" or other names. i personally think they are great, so whatever, theres more for me and the wild things =)

p. cerasifera makes a good root stock variety as well.

Wow thank you so much for all the info Leila! Glad to hear it all. That sounds like another case of humans thinking they're too good for nature; I find these cherry plums to be quite tasty as well! I am sure they are extremely nutritious. Our cultivated plum trees each put out a couple hundred pounds of fruit each year, without irrigation. Amazing old trees.

Hello Caleb and Leila,

Very interesting, GREAT news for your region - the motherland of wild plums is in Santa Rosa CA !!! - just like the motherland of apples is in Kazakhstan.

You can use it as ground cover in your area - we all should try it - It must that particular variety that is prolific in your area. I tried one variety in southern Greece and it would not sprout by simply placing it in the ground.

Do you know if its required/necessary for the seeds to go through the animals stomach to sprout, or will they sprout by simply putting them in the ground. Which animals do the job - any domesticated (goats etc) ?

I read an interesting article about the Mirablelle plum (Mirabelle de Lorraine) being grown in France - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabelle_plum. It seems they take full advantage of this wonderful tree.

Thanks again

Kostas

i'm totally enamoured with the prunus genus =) especially all the plum types. cherry and peaches are much fussier.

but the plums- they rock, soooo easy, good for hedgerows, grow feral, and really drought tolerant. actually they seem to be just tolerant of anything and everything, plant them super close together, ok in too much water, or not very much water. well they tend to just look sad and lose their leaves if they get too stressed, but then they come back once its nice and wet in spring, super hardy and resilient.

one of my neighbors grows this type, and they have spread themselves over that property, they are super yum =). i dont know exactly what type it is, but my best guess is that its the mirabelle type. really really sweet yellow cherry plums, beautiful trees, with long arching branches, not shrubby like the feral trees.

heres a pic from when i harvested them =)



i started a lot of those, both last year and the year before, overwintering them in pots outside, got good germination. well then i gave a bunch away and planted them out all over.
so now i have a few two year old trees left of that one. plums sprout pretty easily for me that way, just plant them outside in pots after cleaning them a little, keep rinsing them and soaking them for a few days, then plant them in the pots to over winter. sometimes i left them get sorta dry, somewhat mostly dried, and then place them in the fridge in ziplock baggies.

if you do have animals roaming around in these places you are trying to reforest, it might be a cool experiment to see if leaving whole fruit around might end up sprouting...like after it was eaten and then given back to the land, in a little pile of extra fertilizer =) i guess it would be hard to tell if it worked, but its worth a try. if you left berries and fruits out there, it would be eaten by something, and might end up sprouting.

it's definitely a helpful thing for hard to germinate perennials to pass through an animals digestive tract. some seeds have a protective coating on them that prevent germination, but the digestive enzymes and acids of the stomach dissolve the coating on the seed.people try to mimic this with different process, i wont get chemical stuff, but i have used orange juice to imitate this process. it does actually work pretty good for those kinds of seeds, orange or lemon juice to soak the seeds first.

also the cold and wet stratification, is not that difficult to get it, especially if you just do it the simple way in pots or a temporary nursery bed, outside with freeze thaw cycles naturally. that also breaks down the germination inhibitors.

and here, another pic, of prunus cerasifera growing on an old homestead nearby. it's been abandoned for decades.
prunus cerasifera, the wild red cherry plum -



sorry the picture isnt great, my camera takes some fuzzy shots. but this is a very old tree, and kinda gnarly, from all the animal pressure it gets. the deer and bears half tear off the limbs, and keep pulling them downward, and you know, its a totally feral tree, no one planted it, or has ever pruned it or watered it. theres dozens --> hundreds of these within that same area, but this one is the eldest that i found ....

Hello Leila,

Yes indeed - what a tree !!! thank you for the pictures and informative post.

If we can manage to use animals to reforest, we can convert the dying existing pine forests to healthy food forests with a large variety of trees. Its probably the most cost effective way - plant a few trees on the top of the mountain and let the animals carry them away.

Reforesting is the permanent long term solution for the current CA drought.

Are the pine forests effected in your area by the beetle? to what extend?

I wonder, how far south from you and Caleb, the plum will sprout and survive without care - will they survive and help reforest as far south as San Diego?

I will definitely try them. I am looking into ordering seeds.

Kostas

Leila, once again, thank you for all the wonderful information. I have seen many of these trees all around, now that I know them.

Kostas, I completely agree that reforestation is key. The Pine Beetle definitely is spreading, starting to become significant and notable, but not quite catastrophic yet. I don't have a wide knowledge of the subject, but I've seen many, many beetle-killed pines and i hear about it.

Caleb

Konstantinos Karoubas wrote:Hello Tim,

Sorry for the delay. Roughly, if you can tell us where are you - what is the terrain like?–

Figuring out what your land wants to grow is a challenge - once you know, or at least begin to understand, that's when life begins to get easier and interesting.

Kostas,
I am in a forest right now. North Idaho, pretty close to Canada.
However, I feel it's not "business as usual" this year, because of the drought. I have an acreage with a few thousand trees, mostly Douglas Fir, but also Grand Fir, Alders, a few Aspens... And I saw quite a few of the trees, mostly young ones, die last year. And it is getting worse now. I wonder, how many of the trees will survive. There is no way for me to irrigate all of them; the earthworks that have been done before aimed to solve drainage problem, not watering. Will the drought end this year?

I would not want to live in a desert... But with the wildlife (deer, rabbits, gofers), cold winters, and the drought, all my attempts to introduce new varieties of trees have failed. Only fencing and irrigation work, but I doubt it is doable on an acreage.

Hello Tim,

We all should be so lucky as you (deer roaming and plenty of trees) - soon you may be growing olive and palm trees (hopefully not). Of all of us, you will probably have the easiest time to reforest and introduce new trees.

Take some clay, and plenty of seeds, and make some clay cubes, now that it is summer time - make sure to include many of the seeds we mentioned in this thread - see an earlier post, where I have pictures of forms that I use to make clay cubes - https://permies.com/t/7423/resources/Seed-Mix-Canadian-Food-Forest (towards the end). Nature will show you the way - I am sure you will do well - we can all learn a lot from what you will do. You can also place seeds directly in the ground -its easy once you get started.

Deer are not goats (hopefully), and many of your trees from seed will survive, then the deer will help distribute the seeds and expand your food forest.

You definitely want to introduce apple and wild plum trees inside the existing Douglas fir and other trees and see what happens.

Let us know how we can help and good luck.

Kostas

Kostas,
Thanks for the encouragement!
You are right, I should have the easiest time to reforest and introduce new trees of all the people in this thread. I think I should try harder.