Sambucus (nigra), how do you call it?

'How do you call the Sambucus (nigra or other species)?'
Maybe this is a strange question. It's more about etymology than about permaculture. That's why I post it in the 'meaningless drivel'.

There's this small tree/ large shrub with the botanical name Sambucus nigra (in Europe, I think in other continents there are other species of Sambucus). In my opinion the English name of it is Elder. Now it has flowers, those are elderflowers, and later those become berries, elderberries.

But I often (maybe last years more often than before) I see people write about 'Elderberry' as if this is the name of the tree. They also speak about 'Elderberryflowers' instead of Elderflowers. I ask myself 'why'?
There could be a reason why ...
- maybe because the word 'elder' also has a different meaning?
- maybe they don't mean the (European) Sambucus nigra, but there's a different Sambucus with the official name of Elderberry in English?
- maybe in books, or youtube-channels, or on TV, someone always talks about Elderberry bushes/trees?

It occured to me that in Dutch (my language) the same happens. I suspect google, translating with AI, to cause this...

I was born and raised in the UK.

To me the tree is elder. The flowers are elder flowers. And the berries are elderberries. And no I can't quite explain why there is space before 'flower' but not before 'berry'. But then if it's in a recipe, like elderflower fritters or elderflower champagne, I take the space out again.

I think that the other side of the pond it gets called elderberry. And the flowers are elderberry flowers. Which feels a bit long-winded to me...

Something similar happens with blackberries. To me, blackberries grow on brambles. I think in the US they grow on blackberry vines.

And then there's Chenopodium album. I have always called it fat hen. It's a name I learned as a child, from someone telling me out loud what it was called. Then from hanging out on permies I learned to write it as lamb's quarters. But I'd never quite realised that I always called it fat hen if I spoke even if I automatically typed it as lamb's quarters.

Which caused great confusion when I went to visit Wheaton labs and called it fat hen, because I was speaking, not typing.

Elder trees are unusual here, but alders are common.  The local dialect makes the two words impossible to distinguish when spoken.  

Quite a lot of things in english have a different word to describe the stage of life.  Lamb, hoggart, ram, roast, etc.  Some historically important food trees have this cycle like how hawthorn is called "bread and cheese" for a few weeks in the spring.  (The peasants revolt has a funny story about that). A lot of these words had such specific meaning we don't have to say the extra words needed to explain,  like a rahser (of smoked bacon sliced a specific thickness and direction)

Although most modern dialects of English only use about 10-15% of the available vocabulary when speaking. So now people here say a "a slice of bacon" instead of "rasher".

I was very confused the first time I learned that elderberry and elderflower were the same tree (I'm still confused about passionflower and passionfruit).  So I started looking around and asking people (we are very much alike that way :).  The conclusion I came to is that it depends on where they grew up, culturally.

Those from Europe and England, especially from the country, simply call it elder.

Those who were raised over here, call it based on the drink or candy they grew up with.  So, I grew up with elderflower cordial,  so my default is to call the tree elderflower unless it's in fruit.  And having flower on the end helps people know I'm nkt talking about alder.

Those who grew up with elderberry gummies for example, call it elderberry unless in bloom.  

Most people who come to the farm call it 'why is that scraggly tree in the way?' And get a lecture on how great elder is, and walk away thinking it doesn't look a bit like alder.

I think this cartoon was my introduction to the therapeutic use of plants...

That is why professionals always use latin names..Laypeople may find it bragging, but honestly, only Latin names are exact. When I order a plant from a wholesaler in another country, only Latin names will guarantee I get what I wanted.

I use elder, elderflower, and elderberry, commonly. If I'm ordering or need to be specific, in advising someone, I will use both the common name and the Latin. But, I tend to be lazy in my speech, and due to reasons, often momentarily lose chunks of my vocabulary, so my speech patterns are variable - sometimes widely. Your rashers are my bacon; I don't bother with 'a slice of', unless I need to be quantitatively specific. Culturally, I learned to use 'arugula' rather than 'rocket', which I only hard of in terms of that type of lettuce, a few months ago. I'm 61! There are many regional differences in English dialect, to be sure. Fanny has different meanings for different cultures, as does 'fag', and 'chuffed' was a word I learned only about 8yrs ago, and while I think it's a great word, no one locally knows it, so I don't use it.

r ranson wrote: ...

I was very confused the first time I learned that elderberry and elderflower were the same tree (I'm still confused about passionflower and passionfruit).  So I started looking around and asking people (we are very much alike that way :).  The conclusion I came to is that it depends on where they grew up, culturally.

...

When I was at Curaçao (a Caribbean island) I learned that Passionfruit is not the exact same plant as Passionflower. The Passiflora caerulea, known as Passionflower, is fairly cold-hardy. It survives in the Dutch climate. Not only it survives, it thrives, climbs on everything and has lots of (large) flowers. Sometimes it gives fruits, but those look different from the real passion fruits. They are orangy and they don't taste nice.

But in tropical climates the real Passionfruit plant is grown: Passiflora edulis. The flower looks like the Passionflower, but a little different. The leaves are a little different too. The fruits have a purple colour, juicy and with a nice sweet-sour taste.

There are more species of Passiflora, at the island Curaçao there's one growing as a wild weed. It has much smaller flowers. It's local name can be translated as 'the queen's crown'.

r ranson wrote:Elder trees are unusual here, but alders are common.  The local dialect makes the two words impossible to distinguish when spoken.  
...

Okay, that's a good reason. Alder and Elder are two totally different trees!
Luckily in Dutch their names are totally different. Alder is called Els and Elder is called Vlier. Fun fact: both can be girl's names ...

Does this mean my elderberry plants are going to be trees? I thought they were a bush or just  a tall plant. I don't recall what they were sold as. It's the common type of semi-wild elderberries around here..  
Hmm... I'll look later.

I just watched a British tv show where the expert used elderberry and alder in the same sentence.  Elsewhere he used elder.  

They were speaking in the vernacular because the general public has difficulty with latin.  

Pearl Sutton wrote:Does this mean my elderberry plants are going to be trees? I thought they were a bush or just  a tall plant. I don't recall what they were sold as. It's the common type of semi-wild elderberries around here..  
Hmm... I'll look later.

The tallest one I've seen around here, was about 10ft tall, and about 6 feet in diameter, with a very bushy habit. The folks who let me harvest from it had cut the whole thing down, repeatedly, over the 30yrs or so they'd owned the land, and were about to do it, again. It made me very sad, and they thought I was crazy for wanting all those flowers. I'd have taken cuttings, but I knew I didn't have tome to root & plant them.

Burra Maluca wrote:
I think that the other side of the pond it gets called elderberry. And the flowers are elderberry flowers. Which feels a bit long-winded to me...

Americans also say "hot water-heater" every single time, too!

Elder is kind of new to me. The European type was never around me, and now our house has a plant of the American species. I often just call it Sambucus.

Rebecca Norman wrote:Americans also say "hot water-heater" every single time, too!

Elder is kind of new to me. The European type was never around me, and now our house has a plant of the American species. I often just call it Sambuca.

John and I laugh, every time we hear 'hot water heater'. Around here, it's about 50% who say that. I like the idea of calling it sambuca! Sadly, no one around me would have a clue what I was talking about.

I just looked it up. Sambucus nigra looks like what I have. I hit the Missouri Botanical Garden site for info on it, as they are close to me and have similar growing conditions.
Sambucus Nigra  at Missouri Botanical Gardens
it has a nice red warning that makes me laugh:

This plant has been found to be weedy and potentially invasive and should not be planted in Midwestern gardens.

It's also a wonderful medicinal, as well as a lot of other uses. Sorry, I'm ignoring the warning, AND I planted a bunch of it about 10 years ago. Which, if I remember right, I got from the state of Missouri tree sale.  

So I guess it might be a tree. Interesting.

Pearl Sutton wrote:Does this mean my elderberry plants are going to be trees? I thought they were a bush or just  a tall plant. I don't recall what they were sold as. It's the common type of semi-wild elderberries around here..  
Hmm... I'll look later.

There was a large one at the corner of the block where I live. It had to be cut down because it grew too close to the building. It was as high as halfway the second floor (which I would call the first floor, because we do not count the ground floor ...).
I have taken a cutting of that big Elder and planted in my allotment garden, next to the shed, about three years ago. This is what it looks like now:


But, there are other species of Sambucus that grow like small bushes. Be aware. One of those is very poisonous!

Pearl Sutton wrote:I just looked it up. Sambucus nigra looks like what I have. I hit the Missouri Botanical Garden site for info on it, as they are close to me and have similar growing conditions.
Sambucus Nigra  at Missouri Botanical Gardens
it has a nice red warning that makes me laugh:

This plant has been found to be weedy and potentially invasive and should not be planted in Midwestern gardens.

It's also a wonderful medicinal, as well as a lot of other uses. Sorry, I'm ignoring the warning, AND I planted a bunch of it about 10 years ago. Which, if I remember right, I got from the state of Missouri tree sale.  

So I guess it might be a tree. Interesting.

Yes, they give warnings that it grows like a weed. When birds eat the berries they spread the seeds. But they are not half as weedy as brambles (Blackberries)! And both are native here in the Netherlands.

There are a lot of vines with thorns that don't have blackberries on them, thus here, bramble is the category, blackberry is a sub category,  then specific variety of blackberry is the plant or food.  The kind of blackberry makes a big difference.

My elderflowe tree is about the height of a 2 story house.  Which is a small tree/tall bush for here.  But it's covered with bramble so it has to grow taller to get light.  The alder are many times taller.

Ooh - a can of worms . . . it totally depends where you live as to the common names of some plants.  North American fireweed isn't the same as Australian fireweed, (Senecio sp.) and I remember in the UK the US version was called Rose-bay willow herb.   Nettles here in Oz are different from  US and European - which explains why I don't get green dye from them!
So, fine to call by the local name to another local, but highly recommended to search out the Latin name if discussing with persons from elsewhere.

Talking to random people around town

If British born and raised, bramble is the general term for blackberry vines.

If north american, bramble means spiked vine, of which blackberry is a sub section of bramble.

Great how this discussion takes shape!
How names for plants, trees (and other things) can be different in different countries with the same language, even in different regions of one country! Never assume everyone will know what you mean when you use the words you are used to ...

Both elder and alder grow here in NZ and with our notoriously flat vowels, there would be a lot of confusion if we didn't call the elder an elderberry tree.

Most folks would look confused if we called them by their proper name of Sambucus despite there being a popular otc medicine called Sambucol sold as an immune booster.

There is a very old multi stemmed gnarled tree near the community garden and left to their own devices, they definitely grow into trees.

This one would have likely been grazed by goats to have developed into a multi stem tree.

r ranson wrote:Talking to random people around town

If British born and raised, bramble is the general term for blackberry vines.

If north american, bramble means spiked vine, of which blackberry is a sub section of bramble.

Born & raised in the east of England, East Anglia to be specific.  We would go walking & pick blackberries as a family all my life. I have them growing as welcome, tended volunteers in my garden now.

I think 'brambles' was used to mean, the plants especially if growing freely.

But later, I've picked up that it's seems the term 'brambleberry' is used instead of 'blackberry' in Scotland sometimes or often?

The Dutch name for Blackberries is 'Bramen'. That resembles 'Brambles' ...