American Elderberry, cut to the ground every year? Biomass bonanza?

 So I'm learning about elderberry and most sources seems to agree that they occasionally need to be cut flush to the ground.
How often  this needs to happen isn't agreed upon, but some growers seem to do it yearly.
How often do y'all cut back your elderberry plants?

However often the flush cut needs to happen the requirement actually seems like a great opportunity for a permie!

I use a lot of raised beds, and I plant comfrey around the bases, as a way to catch and recycle nutrition.
I am wondering if I could do the same with elderberry plants.


I'm am growing a strip of trees along one fence line, as a defense against that neighbor.
Because I suspect him of spraying my trees in the past, I don't risk anything very valuable there.
It's been planted with transplanted volunteers  like catalpa, willow and black locust, to create biomass for the rest of the garden.
Elderberry could be another  source of easily propagated fast growing plants.
I haven't found anyone turning it into biochar, but it seems like it would work.
It also seems like it could be used in light construction.
I'm imagining a junkpole fence built with elder poles that could actually sprout roots and grow!

I just have got my hands on an elderberry plant and am planning my future maintenance of it.

I'd be curious if anyone has an answer to the original posters question? How often do you prune back your elderberry plants?

Ours is English elderberry, so it might be different to the American type, but what we have coppices well and regrows very fast after being cut. There's one that's self sown into a crack between the parking space and a neighbour's garage, right where we don't want it. We cut it down completely every year. It regrows well over 8 foot tall by the time we cut it again. There's another at the front of the house that hubby thinks is too tall (it's full-sized, at least 20 foot) so he lops the top four or five feet off each year. That regrows fast, too. I can't get him to understand that if he left it, it probably wouldn't grow any taller!

We cut out the oldest trunks of our american elderberry occasionally but not everything to the ground.

Do they still produce berries as well after cutting them to the ground every year?

I finally have ours in the right spot so it is suckering all over...some I'm leaving some I mow...it's a happy shrub.

Since our main reason to grow, other than the wonderful shade it provides, is for flowers and berries I hesitate to use it as chop and drop 🤔

Elderberries grow like weeds here, only surpassed by sycamores.
I coppice them every two years, so they can flower every other year and I keep some space for myself.
Their wood tends not to break down easily in my garden though, even chipped - better for walking paths than garden beds.
Have a nice evening,

Our elderberries won't flower and fruit if cut down to a stool every year.  They grow back vigorously but there won't be any flower buds. As Oliver suggested, to get both needs a two year cycle. That gives a balance of biomass/ size control one year and useful flowers and fruit in the alternate years.

What does it mean to "need" to be cut back?

They're a weedy plant on my property, growing among the woods like hazel. There's no one out there cutting them to the ground and they seem to produce berries.

As far as I know, elderberry only needs to be cut back for other purposes, like if they're growing too big for a smaller garden, or for biomass use. Of course, they don't "need" to be cut back to fruit.

But like many coppicing trees or shrubs, it's also possible they live longer and are healthier if cut back periodically, which may have been what the sources William saw suggesting a periodic cut to the ground meant.

I was assuming maybe it needs special care in places where it grows a little more marginally. I'm just curious about the details.

I got some idea about cutting back elderberry from Shawn in this video:

There's more about yearly cutting on this podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6txJVJNCwzdAnKEjkirqMA?si=9f6zASgtTxSPp8NWRcKN-w

Specifically at minute 31.

One thing I took away from Sean's discussion is that the cutting back prevents the plant from dying of old age. That makes sense. One thing he left me wondering was about the drying out of the pollarded cuts. Do the ground-level cuts not dry out the same way? Is it because they're close to the root-mass?

I've been amazed at the regrowth on my (European) elder. I cut some maybe three year old bushes back with a view to relocating them, as the were never intended to be left next to the trackway in my orchard area, however I missed the moment to transplant them and they just grew - like Jane Mulberry says more than 6 feet in a season.

more than 5 ft growth at end of June

I'm now thinking of possibly cutting them several times a season for biomass as a soil improver/mulch. They are very green and sappy during the summer, but more woody if left till the winter to cut back. It's a pity they don't flower on this year's growth, but you can't always have everything!

I got up the courage to cut mine back this past winter and they grew  back beautifully and are now in flower.  Nancy, instead of moving the existing plants, why don't you just prune them and then take the cuttings and put them where you want the plants?  It won't take long for them to grow, and it would be much easier than trying to move a large root ball.

Sean has a nice follow up video here:


My take away, I need these plants IN my chicken yard!

One thing to consider that I don't believe has been mentioned...  Frequent coppicing means your plants spend a lot of time in the young regrowth stage.  In my experience on the East Coast of North America, young elderberry is a favorite of White-Tailed Deer.  So if deer pressure on your property is high, you may be inviting problems.

I have actually erected a type of fence this year around a small area where I'm trying to grow elderberries, after last year's attempt just saw them browsed to the ground over and over again.  Of course, they are resilient, so two of three regrew this year from the roots.  Nota Bene: elderberries are mostly propagated by cuttings or layering, not by grafting, so regrowing them from the roots poses no problem.

In prior years when my deer pressure was lower, I grew elderberries without issue.

My husband and I spent part of this morning trying to weed out elderberries.  Got a nice small Nova variety several years ago and made the mistake of putting it in a small garden, albeit at the back corner near an alleyway.  The first year it was well behaved.  The next year it got a tad large.  The third year it was like the plant in the Little Shop of Horrors.  At least in Pennsylvania with this particular variety, I feel confident saying it should be cut to the ground every year.  And perhaps doing some thinning once it starts growing is also advised.  Doing so doesn't seem to inhibit it from shooting back up to about 10' high and producing copious flowers and fruit.  Plus swallowing up a parking space in the alley.

Barbara - that's what I was thinking too. Hey, I can "have my plant and chop and drop/propagate it too"! Well actually European elders don't seem to flower unless you leave last year's wood on them, but I have a few in other places for flowers and am always happy for more for shelter.
I find the cuttings need soil with less competition to take well. They seldom take by just sticking them into turf where I want them, but do alright if I put in a garden bed, and them move the survivors. Possibly this is down to liking a bit more moisture, or it may be that more nibblers eat them in the grassy areas.

Cutting elderberries does encourage suckering. My biggest elderberry bush made a couple of stalks that were the size of those jumbo permanent markers [Like 1.5" in caliper]... and then it died. I can use those 2 stalks for biomass but I suspect that elderberry bushes do not have very long lives. Instead, they can sucker profusely, so I can't see raising them for biomass, at least not where I am. I make terrific jelly from the berries, however.
Perhaps I have the wrong cultivars for biomass?
Once the stalk dies, then I will cut it and put in on the brush pile or grind it for mulch.

I know of one at a bar that got pissed upon and pruned a lot for over 15 years by the owner who thought it in the wrong place. I am trying to slowkill one myself that the neighbor believes is pushing his wall over. Every time i look it's back with new growth.
I'd just try one every year, the next tree one year completely but the next year leave only half cut back, the next tree in line one year completely and then leave it grow  for a year. Or something like that. You'll find the sweet spot for regrowth biomass bombs! Please tell us what it is!

Though my climate is essentially identical to Sean’s, our experience with to-the-ground pruning doesn’t seem to match his. It seems to set the fruiting way back—two years before significant fruiting returns. Maybe it’s a variety issue, maybe microclimate, don’t know. Whatever the reason, my solution is to maintain four, maybe five bushes, each in a different stage of development.

Started the process two years ago by planting cuttings in our vegetable garden, the cuttings taken from a strong pond-side elderberry (no idea what variety). Pulled all but the strongest, and after two years put another in the ground next to it. That’s what you see in the attached picture. I’ll start another each year until I have the desired 4 or 5 bushes. By then the oldest bush can be pruned to the ground and the others (with light pruning) will be supplying us with berries. Keep cycling and the bushes should live long and prosper, and give us plenty of berries.

The cuttings of course find their uses, though it never occurred to me that elderberries could be coppiced for biomass. I generally rely on Alder for that since it’s so well established around our ponds, but all things considered, the elderberries would likely have greater value than the alder. Time for a change!

The first tree I remember climbing was an elderberry.  It was about 25 feet high, had a single trunk.  You won’t get that by cutting it back, but maybe that’s not what you want from your elderberry.

I planted an elderberry seedling (ordered from Strictly Medicinal.  It grew into a very happy suckering spreading shrub.  It flowered and bore fruit every year.  It was in the sun next to an irrigation ditch.  When it got to be big enough, I cut a cattle panel into pieces and put a fence around the core of the thicket, then let the goats eat it.  

David Milano, I wonder if you pruned/trained your elderberry to be a tree? Or did you buy it that way?
I would love to have mine as trees, but they are definitely *bushes*, with multiple stems coming from the ground. If it can be done, I would definitely try it.
In the Wiki, it also shows in Austria a plantation of Sambucus that looks just like yours, [i.e. trees]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambucus
If you click on the link, folks, you can tell that there is a myriad of different Sambucus, and they can probably crosspollinate between species if they live in adjacent zones.
The wild ones here are Sambucus Canadensis, but some have red stems while others have green stems. The red stemmed ones seem a bit sweeter to me, but I have not performed a brix on them.
I bought some bushes from Indiana Berries, but now, I can't remember which is which.
The Wiki mentions a blue elderberry, but it seems to me the blues is more of a blush on the berry than a color that goes throughout.
I love the ease of picking these wonderful berries, which also have medicinal applications. I make cough syrup out of them. For biomass, I would use Alder or wild hazelnut bushes, or will cherry trees that grow here in [over]abundance.
[I think it is almost sacrilegious to use elderberry for biomass, but that's only my opinion. I will concede that if it is not in the right place, it is no fun to try and remove it!]

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:David Milano, I wonder if you pruned/trained your elderberry to be a tree? Or did you buy it that way?

Yes, we “created” the shape, merely by cutting the lower branches and a bit of judicious branch pruning. We like the form, and it’s well suited for berry collection.

No need for us to buy elderberry—they’ve naturalized here and there around our ponds and swamp—so we just take 12”+/- twig cuttings from them and stick them in the ground. Our success rate for rooting is in the neighborhood of 50% so I “plant” 3 or 4 twig cuttings in a clump and later gently pull the ones that haven’t rooted or that seem weak. This is, as far as I know, the most common way to propagate elderberry.

NB: In our region elderberry is so common that if we didn’t have it on our own land, it would be easy to find available cuttings on someone else’s. Most farms have at least a few elderberries, and permission to take a handful of cuttings is readily given. Of course if you’re looking for a specific variety...

I think Blue  Elderberry(Sambucus caerulea or maybe Sambucus mexicana) is(are?) distinct from American Elderberry(Sambucus canadensis) which is itself distinct from European elderberry(Sambucus nigra ).
European elderberry and American Elderberry can hybridize(The cultivar Marge is an example.)
I'm not sure if Blue Elderberry can hybridize with either.

European elderberry is said to be cable of becoming a tree, American elderberry isn't generally described that way.
American Elderberry growers will sometimes tout their fruit as safe for raw consumption, as compared to the other two species that need to be cooked to be safe to consume.
Blue  Elderberry(Sambucus caerulea or Sambucus mexicana) are reportedly grown as green manure in  Guatemala:

https://permies.com/t/193199/berry/Guatemalan-Elderberry-Bush-Silviculture

I suck at growing cuttings but the elder cuttings seem to have taken just fine.
I am starting a bunch in containers, down at the community garden.
I figure we can give them away or sell them.
Even if cutting them hurts them or if they are short lived, the roots should add quite a bit to the soil.

David Milano wrote:

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:David Milano, I wonder if you pruned/trained your elderberry to be a tree? Or did you buy it that way?

Yes, we “created” the shape, merely by cutting the lower branches and a bit of judicious branch pruning. We like the form, and it’s well suited for berry collection.
No need for us to buy elderberry—they’ve naturalized here and there around our ponds and swamp—so we just take 12”+/- twig cuttings from them and stick them in the ground. Our success rate for rooting is in the neighborhood of 50% so I “plant” 3 or 4 twig cuttings in a clump and later gently pull the ones that haven’t rooted or that seem weak. This is, as far as I know, the most common way to propagate elderberry.
.

Thanks for the tips, David. I will try to shape them better: I'd rather have them as trees that the chickens can sit under. They will fit better in the orchards as trees. When you say that you "just take 12”+/- twig cuttings from them and stick them in the ground", are these green cuttings [of this season's growth, in the spring?  or dormant cuttings[ hardwood cuttings?
I took stem cuttings [at the end of the season] of black currants and I stuck them in a homer pail with good soil. I put the pail outside over the winter. Almost all of them rooted, so maybe that's what I should do with elderberries.

I bought some elderberry cuttings from a guy, I had about 60% survival.

I was going to plant them out a couple weeks ago.  They were hardening off to full sun.  Along came a hail storm with 1.35 inch hail stones.  The leaves were shredded.  Then came the grasshoppers.  The stems are having their bark peeled off.  Girdled, but not just a ring, the whole length of the stem.  It’s pretty discouraging.

I have ordered guinea fowl to be in readiness for next year…

For now, I’m discovering whether the 1.5 year old toot systems can recover from such a double whammy .  

Hi Cécile.

You are quite right that currants and elderberry share the characteristic of being very easy to propagate from cuttings. Sean from Edible Acres covers this thoroughly, and much better than I could, in a YouTube video:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:I bought some elderberry cuttings from a guy, I had about 60% survival.
I was going to plant them out a couple weeks ago.  They were hardening off to full sun.  Along came a hail storm with 1.35 inch hail stones.  The leaves were shredded.  Then came the grasshoppers.  The stems are having their bark peeled off.  Girdled, but not just a ring, the whole length of the stem.  It’s pretty discouraging.
I have ordered guinea fowl to be in readiness for next year…
For now, I’m discovering whether the 1.5 year old toot systems can recover from such a double whammy .  

That is certainly disheartening, although 60% survival rate on elderberry cuttings is not bad. We've had some hail storms: After losing their leaves, there is still enough energy in the stems to put forth more leaves, so that's not the worst.
I feel that the  biggest problem is the grasshoppers. Here are a few tricks, but I'm just quoting: We don't have such nasty grasshoppers in central Wisconsin.
https://www.pesticide.org/grasshoppers#:~:text=Set%20up%20a%20clear,gives%20them%20a%20debilitating%20disease.
Good luck to you, Thekla

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:Cutting elderberries does encourage suckering. My biggest elderberry bush made a couple of stalks that were the size of those jumbo permanent markers [Like 1.5" in caliper]... and then it died. I can use those 2 stalks for biomass but I suspect that elderberry bushes do not have very long lives. Instead, they can sucker profusely, so I can't see raising them for biomass, at least not where I am. I make terrific jelly from the berries, however.
Perhaps I have the wrong cultivars for biomass?
Once the stalk dies, then I will cut it and put in on the brush pile or grind it for mulch.

Depending on when it "died" I would wait a bit before you decide to do anything with it. I had two "Ranch" elderberry cutting that started off great, then we had a day that got very hot while they were still pretty small and had not been transplanted out yet. They wilted badly, I went ahead and transplanted them into large containers outside, then the leaves all turned brown and dried up. I was sure they were dead. I'm in South Central Alaska, formerly zone 3b and now it's been changed to 4a.

I figured they died and I Ignored them for a couple weeks.  Had some time and needed the containers somewhere else. Went out to get them and to my surprise they had about three inches of new growth at the base. I quickly moved them to a new location where it would not get so hot and was easier to water.

It's possible yours could come back if it hasn't been a long time.

My elderberries (Sambucus canadensis) seemed to be declining in yield over the years, despite selective pruning.   I had read several places that they could be pruned to ground level and they would still produce a crop so in mid Feb 2024 I cut everything down to the ground.  They regrew vigorously but Yield for 2024 was essentially zero. This year I have a bumper crop.  I would caution someone considering this to not cut everything to the ground unless you are willing to lose the year.  I will probably prune to the ground again, maybe every 3-4 years but will only do 1/3-1/4 of my bushes every year.

That's great  data Nick!
This growth pattern really encourages certain animals(humans) to spread elderberry.
By planting new plants every year, when the time comes we can cut the old plants to ground without losing much yield.
Elderberry is usually heated before consumption,but I've found one account that suggests even boiling the berries to make syrup might not kill the seeds.
Between that tenaciousness, how well they grow from cuttings, and their value to human health,they seem determined to be our partners.

They seem to grow on canes that are one year old or 2 yr. old. After that, it does not pay to keep them as they will die/ not fruit. This is a good resource article on elderberries:
https://www.mofga.org/resources/elderberries/elderberries-2/#:~:text=Fruit%20is%20borne%20on%20one,in%20the%20Northeast's%20cold%20winters.&text=York%20%E2%80%93%20a%20very%20large%20bush,larger%20than%20that%20of%20Adams.

Vickey McDonald wrote:
Depending on when it "died" I would wait a bit before you decide to do anything with it.

Quite a bit off-topic, but i tend not to remove seemingly dead trees before two years after "death".
Depending on species, they might stay dormant more than one year, then resprout form the base.
My last "zombies" were a gingko and a persimmon though, not elderberries.

Have a nice evening,
Oliver

Vickey McDonald wrote:Depending on when it "died" I would wait a bit before you decide to do anything with it.

Absolutely!  I have had several different instances when elderberries - even once a little potted transplant, just like your experience - can back to life from their roots long, long after I'd written them off.  They are hard to kill.

Matthew Nistico wrote:

Vickey McDonald wrote:Depending on when it "died" I would wait a bit before you decide to do anything with it.

Absolutely!  I have had several different instances when elderberries - even once a little potted transplant, just like your experience - can back to life from their roots long, long after I'd written them off.  They are hard to kill.

Thank you both for this!  My poor hail shredded, grasshopper eaten plants look utterly lifeless and hopeless.  I was planning to keep them, but your reports are enough to give me the encouragement I need.

I like to mix cuts as well.
Some coppiced to the ground,  some pollarded (3-5’ poles) some pruned of dead, or crossed branches and at about full reach 7’ or so, some left alone for a year.
Then observe the different results, and adjust going forward.
I do avoid horizontal cuts as much as possible, so rain drops run off, rather than accelerating rot on the flat surfaces.

I don't have elder on my property but they are abundant in the wild. I have seen people foraging by the road side ditch. Does anyone in the ozarks know how do the native elderberries compared to the named varieties?

I have seen our local wild elderberries cut down to ground level by the county roadside crews, sprout up and flower in the same year.

I have only the wild ones. I've been afraid to do that to my own. I'll take a look around, the birds may have planted enough in the last few years for me to risk it.

EDIT: Next year.