this forum is for gardeners, homesteaders and permaculture people

In the last few years, the staff have gotten increasingly frustrated with the amount of moderation this forum needs.

Today we are having a meeting and I am shifting this forum slightly.  If a newbie comes here and looks at five or six threads, I want all of those threads to be about the love of gardening/homesteading/permaculture.  And maybe some freak flag on the side.  

I am hoping that this tiny change will make things 20 times easier on the staff, and make the value of the forum to others about 20 times higher as well.

I notice the name of the forum is permaculture singles not rando drive-by singles.

paul wheaton wrote:
I am hoping that this tiny change will make things 20 times easier on the staff, and make the value of the forum to others about 20 times higher as well.

Can you talk about the change or is a secret?

The primary change is to be less "anybody" and much more for gardeners and homesteaders.

So when people describe themselves, it had better include a lot of gardener and homesteader stuff.  If it doesn't, then they are in the wrong place.

It's emphasizing the permaculture part of "permaculture singles" and making this forum more valueable for lonely hearts that like permaculture things.

paul wheaton wrote:The primary change is to be less "anybody" and much more for gardeners and homesteaders.

So when people describe themselves, it had better include a lot of gardener and homesteader stuff.  If it doesn't, then they are in the wrong place.

r ranson wrote:It's emphasizing the permaculture part of "permaculture singles" and making this forum more valueable for lonely hearts that like permaculture things.

So if I understand what you are saying. A thread someone makes might look like this;

New and hopefully less frustrating:
" I have built and used a rocket oven for over a year. I like it but it is hard for people who are not into permaculture to understand. That is why I like permies.com, people here like to build and create things. "

VS

Old and frustrating (drama):    
" No one understands why I built a rocket oven and tell me that I should just buy an oven. I have used it for over a year. "

Maybe.

Hi, I'm a girl and am looking for love and/or "knowing" in the biblical sense of the word.  

Vs

Hi, I'm a girl with a garden.  I love growing beans and peas and potatoes.  Learning how to cook, but it's harder than it looks,  seeking life mate who loves chickens as much as i do.  Good cooking skills is a bonus.


One has a lot of permaculture and fits well in permaculture singles.  The other lacks permaculture and would fit better on a dating site.

I laughed so hard at the "knowing" bit that I can't stop coughing!


Maybe because we've worked so hard at moderation that people didn't see how bad things were, but we often would have Singles threads go something like this:

Original Poster: I love [insert religion here] and am looking for someone who also believes [religious doctrine]. They need to be pretty, smart, into homesteading and also really [political party]. I don't want any [other religion], [other political party], [other way of eating] person, because they're all stupid stupid heads. I have a garden and a shack in the woods. I'm amazing and no one understands me.

Person who replies: You're political stance is stupid. Your religion is stupid. How dare you say that about people!

Original Poster: You're a stupid stupid head!

In someway, it's nice to let the people be jerks, because then everyone else can see they are jerks and run away.

It's nice for people to know "Oh, that person is part of [religion]/[political party], and I'm not. That's good to know. I'll go look elsewhere."

But, way too often it turns into people just arguing about politics, ways of eating, belief systems, religion, etc. That is not fun to moderate.

If most of a person's post is about permaculture and homesteading, with a tiny mention of politics/religion (just to help people be aware), that's not likely going to cause a moderation headache. It might also help us more easily moderate those who might be fishing for nefarious means, as well as those who come to permies just to post singles ads who aren't really interested in permaculture or our community.

---

In summary: focus on your cool permaculture and homesteading projects and passions. If your religion or politics is your passion, be subtle about it. Sandwich it into your post between permaculture goodness. Example:

I'm looking for a permaculture lady to share my life with. My passions are woodworking and gardening. Here's a bench I carved! Here's a shed I built! Here's a tomato I've grown! In my free time, I volunteer in maintaining my church's garden and love listening to NPR, and I'd love to share my life with someone who shares those passions. I'm only looking for monogamous relationships. I grew up in Arkansas helping my grandma in the garden, and it's been a passion of mine ever since. I currently work as a welder and would love to make garden art and trellises, but I don't have an artistic eye. Maybe you do?

I also love reading--my favorite permaculture book is "Sepp Holzer's Permaculture," and I'm currently reading "Botany in a Day."

What is your favorite vegetable to grow or eat? Maybe you have a favorite book? I'd love to know more about you!

I wondered about this stuff too. So many single people have only 2 or 3 posts. And those are answers to their own advertisement. Sometimes older posts and the posters didn't hang around to say anything else in like two years.
Maybe only people with 3 apples or more should be able to advertise. The only way to be sure you're dealing with a permaculture minded person is when they're appreciated by fellow Permies.

I remember responding to a post in the singles forum, by a new member who'd obviously been told that it would be good to share more about his projects. He'd started a new thread to ask about why he should do that. I'd recently stepped down from staff (yes all that moderations really does get to you eventually!) but I attempted to explain that it's a good way for people to get to know about you and the sort of things you do. I was careful to stress that I was NOT single and thought he'd understand that I was attempting to answer his question, not seduce him.

Boy was I wrong. I got myself 'rejected' for not having any loyalty as I think he'd only ever hung out in the singles forum and assumed I was attempting to flirt with him. I was, in equal measure, both horrified and amused. In my world, telling someone you're not single means you're not looking either! I sent his response to my other half who found it even more amusing than I did, especially as he knows full well that my loyalty is pretty much unwavering, and the post was removed shortly afterwards.

To me it seems harsh to expect possibly shy members who might be not good at writing to have to earn their way into the singles forum. But I can fully sympathise with the excess moderation time taken up by that forum.

Although true that it is totally unfair to shy members,  i think it's unlikely people who are that shy will post on the single forum.

Nicole Alderman wrote:

Original Poster: I love [insert religion here] and am looking for someone who also believes [religious doctrine]. They need to be pretty, smart, into homesteading and also really [political party]. I don't want any [other religion], [other political party], [other way of eating] person, because they're all stupid stupid heads. I have a garden and a shack in the woods. I'm amazing and no one understands me.

Person who replies: You're political stance is stupid. Your religion is stupid. How dare you say that about people!

Original Poster: You're a stupid stupid head!

A good summary. I stop reading once religion, political party or way of eating is mentioned. Even if it is my own religion, party or way of eating.

Hugo Morvan wrote:I wondered about this stuff too. So many single people have only 2 or 3 posts. And those are answers to their own advertisement. Sometimes older posts and the posters didn't hang around to say anything else in like two years.
Maybe only people with 3 apples or more should be able to advertise. The only way to be sure you're dealing with a permaculture minded person is when they're appreciated by fellow Permies.

I have had the same though! How do I know that this person posting on this thread is not three raccoons in a trench coat or a catfish? (Catfish: lure (someone) into a relationship by means of a fictional online persona.)
I think three apples, a pie or a combination of things could work. One last thought, about four years ago a thread called Singles: what creation best describes you? this is a great thread and with many pictures. This is a great question that is right at home in a singles thread. I feel a short thread of questions could help.
For example:
How to link other threads to your single thread to show your love of gardening/homesteading/permaculture.
What projects do you want to do in the next weeks, months, years?
How you are doing permaculture in your life?
...
Feel free to add more to this.

How do I know that this person posting on this thread is not three raccoons in a trench coat

A problem on every site where lonely hearts call into the aether.

On permies we have a way you can vet people that I'm told is uncommon on other sites.  Have a look at their post history.  If they have a lot of good posts outside the permaculture singles forum, it increases the chances they are a real human and not a...what's the collective noun for raccoons? A "gaze" apparently.   A gaze with a long coat and a keyboard.

Hugo Morvan wrote:I wondered about this stuff too. So many single people have only 2 or 3 posts. And those are answers to their own advertisement. Sometimes older posts and the posters didn't hang around to say anything else in like two years.
Maybe only people with 3 apples or more should be able to advertise. The only way to be sure you're dealing with a permaculture minded person is when they're appreciated by fellow Permies.

I’m one of those noobies and maybe to give context for you noticing that trend… I’ve seen permies on Reddit/google/chatGPT. Basically anytime someone asks “where can I find off grid singles” the interwebz sends them here. That’s how I discovered permies and why I don’t have much posting history. I’ve been learning a lot through the different forums but feel too novice to contribute to the conversations. It’s hugely educational for me though. The singles forum was just what got me
in the door and I’m sure in time I will have great contributions to share but it can be intimidating for someone with less experience than all these permaculture gods and goddesses out here sharing all the cool things that are so fun for me to be exposing myself to. It’s a whole new world and I feel like that’s a mission everyone here shares- community and converting people to a better way of life and the singles forum is a great introduction

Caitlin Steve wrote:I’m one of those noobies and maybe to give context for you noticing that trend… I’ve seen permies on Reddit/google/chatGPT. Basically anytime someone asks “where can I find off grid singles” the interwebz sends them here. That’s how I discovered permies and why I don’t have much posting history. I’ve been learning a lot through the different forums but feel too novice to contribute to the conversations. It’s hugely educational for me though. The singles forum was just what got me
in the door and I’m sure in time I will have great contributions to share but it can be intimidating for someone with less experience than all these permaculture gods and goddesses out here sharing all the cool things that are so fun for me to be exposing myself to. It’s a whole new world and I feel like that’s a mission everyone here shares- community and converting people to a better way of life and the singles forum is a great introduction

Don't be shy in asking questions on any topic that interests you in any of the forums. I'd suggest reading up on the 'Wheaton Eco Scale' here- any questions that help everyone understand better what it takes to encourage people moving from "level 1" to "level 2" (or even 0 to 1)  would be pretty central to the 'mission' of this site...

Make it a points system.
New Members have to complete so many tasks. Like Otto. To get love on Permies, you need to ... plant something.. build something, grow something. At least they prove something 🤷  

Trolls are abound. Protect site, make it easier, and builds trust, and something of interest, to start chatting about.

Coydon Wallham wrote:

Caitlin Steve wrote:I’m one of those noobies and maybe to give context for you noticing that trend… I’ve seen permies on Reddit/google/chatGPT. Basically anytime someone asks “where can I find off grid singles” the interwebz sends them here. That’s how I discovered permies and why I don’t have much posting history. I’ve been learning a lot through the different forums but feel too novice to contribute to the conversations. It’s hugely educational for me though. The singles forum was just what got me
in the door and I’m sure in time I will have great contributions to share but it can be intimidating for someone with less experience than all these permaculture gods and goddesses out here sharing all the cool things that are so fun for me to be exposing myself to. It’s a whole new world and I feel like that’s a mission everyone here shares- community and converting people to a better way of life and the singles forum is a great introduction

Don't be shy in asking questions on any topic that interests you in any of the forums. I'd suggest reading up on the 'Wheaton Eco Scale' here- any questions that help everyone understand better what it takes to encourage people moving from "level 1" to "level 2" (or even 0 to 1)  would be pretty central to the 'mission' of this site...

I really appreciate you sharing that! It definitely breaks down the intimidation into manageable increments

Craig Lewis wrote:Make it a points system.
New Members have to complete so many tasks. Like Otto. To get love on Permies, you need to ... plant something.. build something, grow something. At least they prove something 🤷  

Trolls are abound. Protest site, make it easier, and builds trust, and something of interest, to start chatting about.

Have a looks at https://permies.com/t/205264/reputation-permies-internet - how permies can build your reputation so people are more likely to trust and take you seriously.

For fun and to get to know your way around we also have scavenger hunts so you can try new things - add to your profile information, images and formatting in posts and so on.

There is always the tinkering with this site forum, which (slightly contrary to it's title perhaps) is where you can ask how the site works and why things happen the way they do here.

I think it's great you can come here looking for love and find so much more for life too.


from George Yacus' post about trellis gardening

A lot of valid points have been made in this discussion and understand that it will be difficult to get a balance to suit everyone. Protecting members obviously is important and a concern obviously, but some of the suggestions strike me as a little bit 'click' sounding, and that in itself can be quite damaging, as different people have different ways of interacting with platforms like this and have different needs that may not include actually interacting until they feel the need or confident to do so.

I must admit to being an overall forum lurker, this is due to learning from the wealth of information on offer in this long learning process of living in this lifestyle, which I hold my hands up and say I am not currently living in, but working towards, so am not confident commenting on something I have no actual experience of outside of growing in my current garden, which is a different kettle of fish to actual off gridding which I respect.

Some back story of my personal situation... I am currently based in the UK and was engaged to an American woman and had started the process of moving permanently to Montana where we were looking to transition to off grid living as it was a shared life goal of ours. Unfortunately I lost her during some routine surgery and my plans and life got torpedo'd. I still have those life goals and use this forum as a guiding light of information, inspiring people and maybe even meeting someone with the same dreams again, but it feels like you want to punish people like me because of how we choose to interact or based on our experience within the lifestyle.

If we are tarnished with the outsiders brush from the start, the culture will never encourage new people in, which would be a shame.

Scott, if you want to post in Permaculture Singles, just include a picture of you in your garden, talk about your garden, and mention the other ways that you're trying or preparing for the homestead transition. It isn't about being an insider/outsider. It's about whether you share some values with the core of the community. If you do, you have something to talk about and if you don't, why even look here for love?

Christopher Weeks wrote:Scott, if you want to post in Permaculture Singles, just include a picture of you in your garden, talk about your garden, and mention the other ways that you're trying or preparing for the homestead transition. It isn't about being an insider/outsider. It's about whether you share some values with the core of the community. If you do, you have something to talk about and if you don't, why even look here for love?

I was referring to the site as a whole entity, of which the singles sub forum is a small part. I totally agree with you that it would make absolutely no sense looking here for love if you were not committed to living in this lifestyle, and would hope that anyone here are just that, I mean what would be the point of trying to get involved with someone who lives a fundamentally different lifestyle, it would never work. I am not saying that there aren't outlying cases, but it must be such a small percentage that it wouldn't be worth potentially alienating people who are genuinely interested in the lifestyle.

Ah, I see. This thread is specifically about the singles forum because it gets a lot of 'drive-by' outsiders who cause some headaches.

To your broader point, I get it. But this might tell you a bit about my own perspective: I spent a few years occasionally reading Permies when search engines brought be here for specific topics I was interested in. And then I eventually created an account (in June of '18) and started reading more regularly. Three years(!) later, in June of '21 I made my first post. I felt like I had digested enough of the zeitgeist that I could start tentatively participating. I'm not saying everyone should be so cautious, but if you start reading regularly, you won't be an expert in most of the things, so you'll mostly read. But then, all of a sudden, you'll see a thing about which you have some experience and opinions, and then, please, jump in and share! Maybe it'll be about gardening in your home county or maybe about losing the love of your life and how people move on. And if you have a question you'd like answers on before that happens, that's a good way to get your feet wet too! And before you know it, you'll be an insider. This place is quite permeable -- it's easy to move in and become one of us.

We do have rating systems.
Apples
Pie
Likes

You can also look at the profile to see how diverse the users posting is.  Do they only post in the singles or...?  Aka, the information is there for you.

This is a site about gardening, homesteading, natural building, and the like.  If you want a site that vets users for you, a dating site is a better place to go.  

Christopher Weeks wrote:Ah, I see. This thread is specifically about the singles forum because it gets a lot of 'drive-by' outsiders who cause some headaches.

To your broader point, I get it. But this might tell you a bit about my own perspective: I spent a few years occasionally reading Permies when search engines brought be here for specific topics I was interested in. And then I eventually created an account (in June of '18) and started reading more regularly. Three years(!) later, in June of '21 I made my first post. I felt like I had digested enough of the zeitgeist that I could start tentatively participating. I'm not saying everyone should be so cautious, but if you start reading regularly, you won't be an expert in most of the things, so you'll mostly read. But then, all of a sudden, you'll see a thing about which you have some experience and opinions, and then, please, jump in and share! Maybe it'll be about gardening in your home county or maybe about losing the love of your life and how people move on. And if you have a question you'd like answers on before that happens, that's a good way to get your feet wet too! And before you know it, you'll be an insider. This place is quite permeable -- it's easy to move in and become one of us.

Thank you for sharing your story, it is very much appreciated and very relatable to me personally and to a lot of people I expect, it really is a wonderful community here and such an amazing resource of information.