Considering a thorny hedgerow for deer exclusion -- ideas?

Hey all, I'm posting an idea I've been considering, looking for feedback and resources. First though, some context:

I have a 5 acre parcel on Vancouver Island (PNW climate). It is a bit inland, so coastal effects are minor (no salt wind, etc...). The property is a rectangle, busy road along one edge, a quiet road along another edge and woods/forest along the 3rd and 4th edges. Surrounding properties are a mix of wooded rural residential (~5 acres) and agricultural pasture (~30-80 acres). We also live in a 'no gun hunting' area, though bow hunting is legal. I am not a hunter.

I hope to develop large areas of the property as food forest/savanna.

Obviously deer pressure is high, they come right up to the back door at night and crop the tops off our cherry tomatoes. The property was a 'country horse people residence' for 40 odd years, so it's mostly pasture with decrepit short fencing along the perimeter, as well as a short fence around the 'yard' by the house. We've installed a high, 7.5' fence around our new veggie garden, which keeps the deer out just fine.

I'm not enthusiastic about trying to fence the whole property line with high fencing, too expensive, too resource intensive (metal wire, posts, digging labour/machines) and too much like living in a compound. We have a lazy old city dog who will chase deer, but spends nights inside (when the real damage occurs). We plan to get a younger dog soon, and I plan to use 'magic bone sauce' to protect individual trees. However, bonce sauce won't help herbaceous plants and dogs are no guarantee (nor problem free).

Now the idea: I've been considering the adage that deer don't like to jump both high and wide, nor do they like to jump into unseen or narrow landing zones. As such I am thinking of planting an outside hedgerow of thorny plants, piling brush and tree trimmings behind the thorny layer, followed by a second line of productive fedge plants on the inside. I hope if the total width is 5+ feet, and maximum height is 5+ feet, it will exclude deer. Thorny plants I'm considering are Black Hawthorn, Nootka Rose, Sea buckthorn, Barberry. I would also include various insectary, nutrient accumulator and nitrogen fixers to support the main plants. I'm also considering adding some taller trees to the mix for nuts or timber. The fedge side is as of yet unplanned, truly the thorny barrier is the main purpose. I have no plans to create a 'pleached' hedgerow in the British style, since I'm not worried about containing cattle or sheep.

Now for the questions: How could I establish this hedgerow and increase chances of success (tips/techniques)? What other plants would you suggest? Would you plant right to the decrepit fence line or leave a gap (if so, how wide)? Can you suggest any resources for further reading/research, especially regarding establishment techniques? Have you any examples where this has been successfully done?

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks!

It's worth a try and it may help reduce deer pressure, but if you have a driveway in for yourself the deer will find it and use it

Luckily that area of the property could be bridged with metal fencing and a gate.

Good! I'm interested in how it works for you. Deer pressure is a huge problem where I live. I've discouraged them with winding raised hugels and thorny bushes but when they're hungry and there are enough of them they are a nuisance. They have destroyed so many of my trees. At least where I am there are lots of other things in the woods to eat. My suburban neighbors are not so lucky

As someone who is also raising free range deer on their property, I'd suggest you take measures to fulfill the predator roles that existed before we decimated their numbers. The good news is that even if you're not a hunter there are people who will actually pay you for the privilege to play wolf/bobcat on your property. Last weekend, a father & son team spend the day working on my land in exchange for two months of hunting rights.

As for the living fence, I would be surprised if it actually kept deer out. I had a place on my property that was a mix of young honey locust (ouch), rose bushes, and osage orange (double ouch) that the deer seemed to adore. I guess the mama deer thought it made for a wonderfully safe place for their fawns.

I would recommend a fence. I have 3 acres for 5 years now, and I spent more time and money putting wire cages around my trees, fooling with all kinds of egg sprays, losing trees, having trees growth severely retarded by browsing, bucks rubbing Korean nut pines to death. I have to say I didn't try to bone sauce, but imagine keeping it on all the necessary trees in 5 acres? It's a huge job. I tried to build a hedge, mostly Maximilian sunflower, which deer don't like to walk thru. Was going to add blackberry and other such but moved onto different projects. Maintaining a hedge of that size is a huge job, and they'll find a way thru somewhere, anyway. The only way to keep them out is to build a fence. You don't have to be that fancy, unless there are neighbors to impress. 8' game fence and 10' t-posts and a larger solid post every so often. Mine is droopy, cheap, sloppy, but it works. No need for a tight, straight, spiffy-looking fence - where in nature do you see straight lines? Yeah, a fence costs, but then you can relax, enjoy yourself, and not have to protect each single tree. I got used to the fence and don't notice it - it's not that visible against the trees in front and behind it. You don't have to do it all at once. I fenced out a small area first, I'm currently expanding it to encompass 1/2 of the lot, and later I'll expand it to two acres (when the brush/trees on the edge of the property grow up enough that the fence is not visible to neighbors). God, the amount of energy we expend because of those stupid animals which are extremely overpopulated. The only thing I have in common with deer hunters is I'd love to kill every deer I see, but it wouldn't be sport, more like bloody murder. Tongue in cheek, but those critters are relentless and merciless.

No direct experience yet, but I keep mental notes about these kinds of questions, because when we get where we're planning on going, we're going to need lots of solutions.

So, in no particular order from what I've gleaned reading - Agreed about deer not liking to jump wide or blind, so a "double wall" looks like a good idea.

If you don't do something to plait the hedge (a number of approaches to this, from pretty haphazard British hedgerow style to the really attractive Belgian Fence) then you've just got some trees and bushes for the deer to push through. As noted above, they may decide the thorny hedge makes great bedding down territory and could be an attractant, not a barrier!

I don't know that I would bother going for thorny plants so much as fast growing things that will insoculate quickly and make the living barrier you need.

I've seen some really interesting, and, I think. wise advice to the effect that the "barrier" hedge should be laid out such that it pushes deer along their natural pathways as much as possible. If you try to just block a heavily traveled game trail that runs, say, from bedding spot to watering hole, you are likely to fail, as they will push through to get to both of those things. If your barrier can run so that they can just slide along past on their way to and fro, it's going to have better odds of working.

The same person who recommended not trying to entirely bar the game trails also suggested making the barrier hedges out of something the deer might be interested in eating. It seems like this serves a couple of purposes. By offering the deer easily accessible munchies, and letting them slide along toward their natural destinations, you give them less motivation to get to the other side of the barrier.

Sepp swears by bone sauce and some people have reported success.

Pick your battles! Plan your planting strategy such that you can heavily protect young trees in manageable areas, shifting the focus of protection as they mature enough to stand on their own. Depending upon your overall plan, it may make sense to do a manageable area of new trees with corresponding boundaries each year, so that you do not have the multiple burdens that come with doing it all at once.

Think of the deer as another product of your property and get a yield, by harvesting for your family's consumption and/or by letting people hunt on your property for some kind of fee.

Man, I wish I had a deer problem like this.

Look up Flying Dragon Citrus. It makes a good two and four legged living fence. Grows good to zone 5.
bad thing the thorns are so large it looks that it could pose a problem for truck and tractor tires.

I have been thinking about this aspect to for quite a time now. I have 3.5 hectares where there are a lot of deers and wild boars. they both are a real big problem. the rest of my land is a woodland of another 2.6 hectares that I will leave free to range for them and has one boundary made up by a yearlong creek. It's to down the hill to use water and I like sort like zone 5 stuff so I'll not speak about fencing it.
the 3.5 hectares are my burden. I've been on to living fences, and hedgelaying there are threads on this, here's one, just to have more ideas: https://permies.com/t/1437/woodland/Planning-growing-hedge-living-fence
I'v been putting together some numbers, if I fence out the 3.6 hectares, knowing that on side it's already fenced by my neighbor I'll work, let's say one month and probably have a fence for the next thirty years, using what we usually use as poles for fences, chestnut poles. ,
If I put a living fence I'll have to: first, plant all the tree's protecting them form the deers and the boars that sort of love to flip everything around if they don't like to eat it; then wait three or four years to have a benefit from the growing hedge.
I read this book on hedges: Murray Maclean, Hedges and Hedgelaying, the title was recommended on the thread I highlighted before, and there is a good table showing how many plants one should use it goes from 1 metre length hedge to 1 km, and from 6 inch spacing in between plants to 36 inch depending on plant growing space: so for a 655 metre hedge with 12 inch spacing the author calculates 2,182 plants
for the plants he considers a lot of varieties, because what he insists on is the importance even of wildlife conservation, as birds or small mammals, and I agree with his vision. we have to think of the hedge as an exlcuding barrier but even a wildlife housing and food feature.
Hawthorn should be not less than 60% of the plants variety beacuse it has a quick growth, then he speaks a lot of blackthorn, dog rose, field maple, hazel, if we speak of small trees or shrubs. if one wants tu use tree's the spacing is more and the time to wait to have a close hedge is longer. I would think of two more that in the book the author doesn't list: black locust, and Osage Orange quick growing and full of thornes, one could put them mixed with other plants and shrubs.
I like the idea of having yields for the deers on the hedge so they don't get to want to cross the hedge. Hedgelaying is another possibility to work quick and fast but you always get to wait three or four years. the hedge though gets thicker, even though there is maintenance to do every three or four years depends on what you want and how high. I think I'll end up fencing my plot though I will try to fencing with poles in a classic way and establish my living fence behind the day I have my poles rotting and want to take them off I'll have a living fence behind at least it will establish well and be stable for the moment it will have to be useful. the small birds and mammals will benefit from the hedge that grows even if there is a fence so I will give anyway a yield to someone.
the big point is the time we have and what we harvest form our plots.

This is the fence I put up at our place in SE Alaska where deer are walking by us all the time: http://www.permacultureactivist.net/articles/Better%20Deer%20Fence%2081.pdf

I modified it by using 5' welded wire instead of chicken wire, a run of 3/8" yellow poly rope on the outside of the fence as well as the the two strands on the inside, and a run of electric fence on the outside to keep bears out. No deer inside the fence for two years and counting.

We are in the process of planting thorny plants along the inside of the fence to eventually become a protective hedge around the property.

I have to agree with Andy. We have two ranches. Our upper ranch is in the Sierra Navada range in California, the lower spread is in the high desert of Nevada. We use electric chargers in both locations.
In the mountains Bear are the biggest problem, to some extent Deer. A 6' roll wire fence with 6 strand of hot wire outside keeps bear out of 3 corrals and two barns. For deer, some people use, 1 strand of electric wire 5' out from the fence about 4' high, for deer, to keep them from jumping the fence. On a new fence, peanut butter on aluminum foil hanging on the wire will teach the deer what it is.

On the High Desert there are, wild horsed,rabbits, kangaroo rats and other rodent. The outer chain link fence keeps out the wild horses inner fences, for the gardens, corrals and groups of trees have three rows of electric wire, outside the horse wire fences. The upper two hot wires are to keep our cows, goats, and horses from eating what we plant, the lower wire for rodents. Two foot or higher chicken wire will keep out rabbits, with a small part of the wire into the soil.

Inside the areas fenced with chain link fencing, chicken wire keeps the rabbits from eating newly planted trees.

We use the highest Joule fence chargers we can get 5 or hotter, with 12ga wire.

We love the wild horses , but not in our in the gardens.

Richard

Good one Richard, I forgot to mention the aluminum foil with peanut butter to train the critters to stay away. It works.

Andy Cook wrote:This is the fence I put up at our place in SE Alaska where deer are walking by us all the time: http://www.permacultureactivist.net/articles/Better%20Deer%20Fence%2081.pdf

I modified it by using 5' welded wire instead of chicken wire, a run of 3/8" yellow poly rope on the outside of the fence as well as the the two strands on the inside, and a run of electric fence on the outside to keep bears out. No deer inside the fence for two years and counting.

We are in the process of planting thorny plants along the inside of the fence to eventually become a protective hedge around the property.

I was in the process of writing a post on deer when I saw this thread.
This design looks great, does it need the electric fence if I'm only keeping deer out?
I was considering fencing an area I will be starting a food forest from this spring, the deer eat anything outside of a fence.
I'm going to revamp my post, I have some cool observations I'd like to share.

Russell Olson wrote:

Andy Cook wrote:This is the fence I put up at our place in SE Alaska where deer are walking by us all the time: http://www.permacultureactivist.net/articles/Better%20Deer%20Fence%2081.pdf

I modified it by using 5' welded wire instead of chicken wire, a run of 3/8" yellow poly rope on the outside of the fence as well as the the two strands on the inside, and a run of electric fence on the outside to keep bears out. No deer inside the fence for two years and counting.

We are in the process of planting thorny plants along the inside of the fence to eventually become a protective hedge around the property.

I was in the process of writing a post on deer when I saw this thread.
This design looks great, does it need the electric fence if I'm only keeping deer out?
I was considering fencing an area I will be starting a food forest from this spring, the deer eat anything outside of a fence.
I'm going to revamp my post, I have some cool observations I'd like to share.

I don't think the electric would be needed. The key for the deer is walking up to the fence and seeing the strands over their head.

Yes, hedgerows and sharing are the permaculture answers to deer wanting to eat. We humans move into the forest and then wish to exclude the wild animals. What right do we have to exclude deer from their habitat, besides paying another human some money? Did you pay the wild for the right to live where you do?
I have seen the carnage that these fences wreak on mostly deer when they attempt to jump it and fall. The rich types here have erected a fence all the way across their large suburban sprawl on the bench of our little mountain valley which becomes littered with the corpses of deer that are just trying to eat. The 3 permaculture landscapes that I have designed, installed and maintain all incorporate the wild into the fertility sequence.
We can easily feed ourselves and the wild critters, creating a harmonious bounty for all!

Bill Bradbury wrote:Yes, hedgerows and sharing are the permaculture answers to deer wanting to eat. We humans move into the forest and then wish to exclude the wild animals. What right do we have to exclude deer from their habitat, besides paying another human some money? Did you pay the wild for the right to live where you do?
I have seen the carnage that these fences wreak on mostly deer when they attempt to jump it and fall. The rich types here have erected a fence all the way across their large suburban sprawl on the bench of our little mountain valley which becomes littered with the corpses of deer that are just trying to eat. The 3 permaculture landscapes that I have designed, installed and maintain all incorporate the wild into the fertility sequence.
We can easily feed ourselves and the wild critters, creating a harmonious bounty for all!

I can appreciate that perspective, however the idea that they are willing to forgo eating every single thing I plant isn't true. They are voracious and overpopulated here. Anything I don't protect becomes their food.
I'm very willing to plant hedgerows along the fence so that they can feed on things, I'm even ok with planting specific things for their benefit.
I'm even willing to leave areas unfenced in certain spots. I plan on trying a feed plot for them the opposite end of the property from where I am starting a forest garden.
I simply don't know how I can have the type of permicultural property without some sort of deer control.
Any suggestions? Keep in mind I haven't found anything they don't eat to the point of killing it. I even have no native seedlings due to their browsing.

There are a few things that you can plant to help with pressure on your more delicate edibles and I like to plant them first to get the browse established. These are just a few of the browse species that grow well here in northern Utah; Staghorn Sumac, Elderberry, Chokecherry, Serviceberry, Clover, Alfalfa, Siberian Almond, Nanking Cherry and whatever trees are at hand. Sumac is my #1 go to shrub for deer. They love it and it can be browsed to the ground without dying. Thank you for keeping in mind that sharing and cooperation are better than hording and dominance.

Your best bet would be to plant Osage Orange and plait the branches for a deer deterring hedge row. To give the plantings a chance to get established, here is an old trick that really works; use Blood or Blood meal, most non predators do not like the smell of death and will avoid it. I use blood meal around new plantings, this is spread 1-2 feet wide in a circle far enough from the planting that the deer can't reach over it. If it's a tree, I do the same and also put a fence ring at least four feet from the trunk, staked to the ground so it can't be pushed easily, the blood meal or fresh blood is spread on the outside of the fence ring, again 1-2 feet wide. So far no deer problems and I live smack in the middle of a series of deer trails, used daily for their travels.

Russell Olson wrote:
I can appreciate that perspective, however the idea that they are willing to forgo eating every single thing I plant isn't true. They are voracious and overpopulated here. Anything I don't protect becomes their food.
I'm very willing to plant hedgerows along the fence so that they can feed on things, I'm even ok with planting specific things for their benefit.
I'm even willing to leave areas unfenced in certain spots. I plan on trying a feed plot for them the opposite end of the property from where I am starting a forest garden.
I simply don't know how I can have the type of permicultural property without some sort of deer control.
Any suggestions? Keep in mind I haven't found anything they don't eat to the point of killing it. I even have no native seedlings due to their browsing.

some form of ceanothus would be good. its one of the most prized and desired food plants for deer, its very pretty and tall, and it comes back from the roots after being eaten. besides that its a nitrogen fixer...

maybe you want a dead hedge...i have been thinking about this idea and more and more i like it =).

basically using whatever branches and scrap trimming you can get to make a big mound, wide and tall as you can...then planting all your hedge plants underneath it and around it to take over eventually.

my friend was telling me this is really common in canada...people bulldoze or tractor everything off to the edges and then pile on trimmings to make it really tall around the edges of their fields...then plant the climbers/thorny brambles/trees within it to eventually take over the "dead" mound....making a big mound of dirt to start off with would give it even more height, quicker....

OP said deer, probably the small white tailed deer.  I am following up on Bryant's idea - osage orange.

Deer here are: mule deer (400+ pounds), moose (as much as a battleship) and presumably elk (I haven't seen one here, other farmers have).

The generic instruction is plant one osage orange every foot, and in 4 years you have a horse high, bull strong, pig tight fence.  I have seen instructions with spacing as tight as every 9 inches.

Osage-orange can grow to be a reasonable tree, with a diameter in the vicinity of 1 foot.  Maybe at year one, the osage-orange are about 1 inch diameter and so there would be 11 inches of room between trees.  But the general idea is that by year 4, the osage-orange trees are pushing 10 foot tall.  Which is out of browse range for mule deer, not quite out of browse range for moose.  How many times does a moose want to tangle with those thorns?

As I understand things, the reason people shifted to barbed wire is not so much that it was cheaper than hedge, but rather hedge gets to be a bit of bear to prune as it gets older.  Farmers back then did not have Arduino and Raspberry Pi.

I do not live in the Great Plains.  I live at 56N in what is called the Peace Country.  On the eastern slopes of the Rocky Mountains.  We used to get much colder than recently (I think we are borderline Zone 3 now).  But we get Foehn winds in winter (we call them Chinooks - Snow Eater).  I am concerned about the chinook.  I think part of dealing with chinook, is to try and have evergreens sunside, so that if a chinook blows in, we don't get warming of the hedge trees by the sun, as well as the the warm wind.  Or some other means of shade

I have read about co-planting osage-orange with honey locust.  And no details.  Will the 1 foot spacing work?

Part of why I like the idea of osage-orange and honey locust, is that honey locust does provide some nitrogen.  If the object is get trees to over 10 feet as quickly as possible, the more nitrogen the better.  Honey locust (the wild variety ?) has fearsome thorns of its own, but I have only sourced inermis (unarmed) honey locust.  A double staggered row is shown in the image, where the orange dots are osage-orange, the green dots are the legume tree (honey locust), and then there is other stuff.

Caragana (arbosescens) is something I have here already.  I was thinking caragana rosea, a much smaller plant, with rose coloured flowers (instead of yellow).  The fushia circle.  Another thing I was looking at is blue false indigo (the aqua dot).

In reading about deer resistant plants, there are many themes.  The theme I favour, is the alkaloid poison.  In particular alkaloid poisons that mimic neurotransmitter chemicals, or are known to develop dependencies (cocaine is an alkaloid poison).  Deer will browse all kinds of things, and some of their habits make it unlikely that they will receive a lethal dose of any poison (clay in diet, cellulose in diet).  But, if you plant the proper alkaloids close to your plants of interest (for me, osage-orange and honey locust in this example), the deer are likely to browse the blue false indigo (I think lupine would work too, there are others) it is possible that over time they become dependent on the alkaloid, and so they no longer come to browse your tree of interest, they come to browse the sacrificial alkaloid plant.  Where this idea developed for me, was in reading about the Datura genus.

In any event, a person has a random (sort of) planting of osage-orange and honey locust in both of the staggered rows.  It would restrict the randomness to avoid getting runs of too many of the same plant in either row, and especially in both rows at the same time.  I would plant the caragana rosea, blue false indigo, lupine, ... more or less randomly on either side.

My thinking is that one plants the row or osage-orange/honey locust that is closest to the property line, at 13 feet off the property line.  This will probably restrict any hedge apples to falling on my land.  It also leaves room for my 6 foot wide mower to get up and down.  As the osage-orange and honey locust get taller, they could shade out the helper legumes.  At that point they don't need the nitrogen, or the alkaloids.  Maybe you plant clover after that?  Having something which could grow in the part shade under the hedge would be useful to protect from winter affects (chinook).  I hope.

At "corners" I will have to do something different to restrict/stop deer.  Or rather at edges, interior corners I don't see as being a problem.

The offset off the fenceline, leaves me room to build a jackleg fence to parallel to the existing fenceline (some places barbed wire, some places board), giving me the double fence (close to a growing hedge) as an obstacle for deer.

Most people seem to think a "deer problem" is just local.  Deer are a problem all over the world, and by and large Disney is to blame.  Some people have problems with one of bambi's friends, thumper.  The Smithsonian has a number of articles out about the effects of deer on the changing population and biodiversity of our forested land.  Deer are changing things, and it is not for the better.  All governments need to pull the Bambi DVD out of their VCR, and take a real look at how many deer should be in the city, on the edges of the city, and so on.

I haven't seen elk here.  Any hay I make is with a scythe (I need more practice).  I made the North Carolina baler for baling my hay (12x16x34 bales).  But it seems that elk like to use a big round bale as practice for fighting other elk.

All deer have this problem of develveting antlers.  Which often means destroying trees.  Often fruit/nut trees.  I think a wrapping of something like 20 grit alumina in plastic on trees might help.  If some idiot deer thinks that after develveting on sandpaper, that they are going to win their battles, they will be surpised when their antlers break.

My apologies to people who want to attract deer.  I don't (want to attract deer).

The above was written in the spirit of a thorny hedgerow (osage-orange).  You might be able to find thorny honey locust too, those look too scary to me.

To plant osage-orange at 1 foot spacing, by the time the trees are 10+ feet tall, and escaping deer predation, I would guess the windbreak effectiveness of these trees is probably at least 50%, even in winter.  It seems reasonable for these trees to get to 20 foot tall.  Which means that at some reasonable distance downwind of the windbreak, the height of the deflected air will rise to 40 feet (twice the barrier height).  If we put a significantly taller and bigger tree 40 feet downwind of the osage-orange hedge, the osage-orange will shield these trees from the wind until they get to 40 foot tall.  Theoretically, the osage-orange will affect ground level streamlines to about twice the height in front of the hedge.  As the taller tree behind the hedge approaches twice the height of the hedge, this disturbance distance to the upwind side should increase.  In my plans, I would put in conifers behind the bigger and taller tree, in part filling in the circular triangles and then with a row or two continuously behind the bigger tree.  If we pick conifers that can grow as tall, or taller than the big tree, they will assist the big tree act as a windbreak, especially in winter.  There should be some synergism developing between the osage-orange hedge which  starts the airflow being deflected upwards, and bigger/taller trees behind the windbreak.

The above post was abstract.  Maybe something more concrete is needed?

The osage-orange hedge should be dense enough to form the start of a windbreak.  It should easily see 10' height in 4 years, and perhaps 20' or so in 10 years.  A deer jumping a 10' fence is jumping an obstacle that is a few inches wide.  A deer jumping a 10' tall hedge is jumping something at least 3 feet wide.  A deer running away from a predator might try to jump a hedge that is 10' tall, but I suspect the deer injures itself a high fraction of the time.  Higher percentages for higher hedges.  If we get hurt, we can go to the hospital.  If a deer gets hurt, it probably becomes lunch with a serious injury.

Most windbreaks of substance, have small changes from row to row, and there can be many rows.  My land is only 660 feet wide perpendicular to the prevailing wind, I want a windbreak to protect the width of my land, without using all of it up.  For those people that believe 10:1 or 20:1 (more?), good luck.  I will work with 7:1.

If I could get dense 95 foot tall trees on my west fence line, I would have quiet zone across the rest of my property.

Most people think oak won't grow here.  About 100km away, there is a 90 year old Bur oak, and many 60 year old Bur oak.  On the top of a windy hill.  So, they are exposed to winds, and even though they are on a research farm (and it was a research farm when they were planted), how much help did they get?  And we would have been very much Zone 2 back then (winter temperatures often getting significantly below -40C).

My second row of permanent trees is Bur oak, planted about 40 or 45 feet west of the osage-orange hedge (to be).  About 64 feet planting distance between trees perpendicular to the prevailing wind.  If they get to 80-feet, they will overlap a little north to south.

To abut the back edge of the Bur oak, will be 2 rows of conifers, both nut producing.  Korean pine has the larger nut and faster growth rate, does grow to Zone 2,   Swiss stone pine maxes out about the height of an oak.  So the first row will be Korean pine, and the second will be Swiss stone pine.  In the circular triangles (a triangle defined by circles on 2 sides, and a straight line on the third side), I will also plant the pines.  Korean pine at the front, it grows faster.

I would also plant temporary trees.  Trees to fix nitrogen, and to provide incentive to grow.  So about midway between the osage-orange hedge, and the Bur oaks, I would plant honey locust and/or grey alder.  And when they get tall enough to start shading out the oaks they are "competing" with, they get coppiced.  Eventually the oak branches reach far enough out to shade out the nitrogen fixer.

Until the oak and pines get to 40 feet tall, they will see little wind, thanks to the osage-orange hedge.  The Korean pine should grow with the oak, or perhaps a bit faster.  I do not expect any of the Korean pine to grow to the 170 feet they have been seen at.  If they get to 100 feet, I think that would be nice.  The pines will be allowed to retain branches all the way to the ground.  The oaks will be pruned so that no branches are below about 15 feet.  Which would lead to some wind trying to go under the oaks, if the pines weren't backing them.  In the summer, the wind load will be shared by the oak and the lead circular triangle pines, once they start exceeding 40 feet.  They should be affecting streamlines 40 feet in front of the osage-orange hedge at that point (it's maximum point of upwind influence).  As the oaks and pines grow taller, they start to shield the osage-orange-hedge from the wind, even though the osage-orange hedge is upwind.

It's possible that the oaks and pines will find the winds here too much competition (I am only 5 miles downwind of a 130+ MW wind farm), so the idea was to hedge bets and plant nut (and possibly fruit trees) in a row downwind of the pines.  So if the oaks and pines only get to 60-ish feet (which is my guess at the height of the 90 year old Bur oak at Beaverlodge), they are still diverting winds to about 120 feet, and so trees capable of 80 feet should freely grow to that height in that row.  So, if I chew up 100 feet of my farm to build windbreak and can get to 80 feet, I have the rest of my property shielded (if I lived on flat land, which  I don't).

I have my osage-orange hedge.  I have potentially an alley 80 feet wide and 15 feet tall, which is partially in shade (we have open circular triangles to the west), so I should be able to grow ground cover.  The oaks may provide acorns.  The pines should provide pine nuts.  The other nut/fruit row, could provide fruit or nuts, and a person could prune them so that no branch is below 15 (or so) feet a well.  They would get morning sun, so again ground cover is possible.

The only annoyance I see, is a need to fence the pines in some way, to keep animals browsing the undergrowth of the nut/fruit trees, from getting into the pines.

In this wind protected area, I have my farm's dugout, which I guess is about 2 million litre capacity.  Can I plant trees to optimize snow recovery behind such an effective windbreak?  Do I need to?

Finishing pigs on acorns is well known in Spain, and the world appreciates that kind of product.  I don't know if the oaks at Beaverlodge have ever made acorns.  But, Korean pine and Swiss stone pine will both make human edible pine nuts in Zone 2 (and I think we are gong Zone 3).  Can I find other nuts, which may fruit here?  I've planted other nut trees, I've no idea if they will fruit.  I just think the wood from those trees would be useful.

My imaginings.

After fighting long an hard to exclude deer, losing trees, getting others maimed rubbed, stunted, fruitless, I will use the good old fencing technique. A fence goes up immediately and is thin enough that you can still use all your property for plantings of your choice. Definitely start with a fence: If you start with trees or anything the deer find edible, you may *never* get to secure your property from these damaging animals. They are browsers, so thorny, tight and bushy doesn't scare them, and they will jump 7 ft with a short headstart. A fedge is a buffet to them.
There are some fence configurations that work better than others if you take advantage of the deer's eye weakness: Because their eyes are on each side of their head, they cannot gauge distance like we can. I use cattle panels 50"high hung by hooks on timber posts [4"X 4"X 8", sunk 2 ft in the ground]. (Using hooks means that I can remove fencing at a moment's notice, either for my chickens to do the fall cleanup in the garden, or mow short between the posts where I want a 'clean edge').
Then I planted grapevines. My posts only stick out 6', which is not near enough to keep a deer out. Above the cattle panel, I cut 1/2 of a cattle panel to arrive at 6'high. [50"+ 25"= 75"]. To make it more formidable, you can remove the top strand, so that the cattle panels have impaling spikes about 4"high at the top. On the inside, since I have raised beds, I also put rebars at the corners, and to improve visibility, I placed a white PVC over the rebars. [I discovered after the fact the genius of this little idea: I can drag water hoses amongst my beds without risking the hose dragging over and killing my plants].
The cattle panels are pricey at $21 for 16' of fence. The 4X4X8 posts, treated, are not cheap either, but when you think about all the money you stick in even *one* tree, it suddenly seems a lot more economical. You need to hook the fence every 8 ft only.
It is a combination of things that makes this fence work:
*The apparent sturdiness of the cattle fence deters them from 'pushing through', as if they can put their head through, the rest of them will go in as well].
*6' is not high enough, but the fear of getting impaled, even on 4" spikes makes them think twice, especially when the forest is close, where they can still eat something else, safely. (It is all about choices, really.)
*The beds on the inside, along with the rebars sticking out instills fear they will not stick the landing.
My garden is 25'X50' and I have not had one breach in the last 6 years when I first installed the fence.
*grapevines, or other screening vegetation [annual vines], helps to conceal what is inside the garden. We see lots of tracks all around, but so far so good.
Once the fence is up, you can still make it look more natural by adding vines or bushes to conceal the 'ugly metal' and posts...

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:I use cattle panels 50"high hung by hooks on timber posts [4"X 4"X 8", sunk 2 ft in the ground]. (Using hooks means that I can remove fencing at a moment's notice, either for my chickens to do the fall cleanup in the garden, or mow short between the posts where I want a 'clean edge').

This is pure genius.

I mostly have fence there (the periphery) now.  Not all of it is "my fence".  One neighbour, had buffalo at one time, so there is special fence that he put up for that.

The far south edge (highest part) of my land, half abuts cattle pasture which is not meant to exclude moose from this neighbour.  There is a "corner" which the moose can get to, where two sections of buffalo fence meet at a 90 degree inner corner, and the moose have crashed that fence to get into my upper pasture a number of times.  I am thinking that if the neighbour does anything to fix that section of fence, I will plant a hedge of saskatoons (or similar) on my side of this corner.  So not only does the moose notice this robust fence, they may not be able to easily see past the saskatoons.  One farmer had luck with this deterring deer and bear.

There is another spot associated with this buffalo fence, where it is on a steep hill (slope is parallel to fence) and the fence is "only" high tension line.  It may be that I only need to build 100-150 feet of a jackleg or a pallisade fence parallel to this high tension wire fence.  At the west side, it would go slightly west of where this cattle pasture ends midway across the width of my land.  The land is "close" to level there, but much of this extra fence would be on that steep slope.

Lorenzo Costa wrote:I have been thinking about this aspect to for quite a time now. I have 3.5 hectares where there are a lot of deers and wild boars. they both are a real big problem. the rest of my land is a woodland of another 2.6 hectares that  I will leave free to range for them and has one boundary made up by a yearlong creek. It's to down the hill to use water and I like sort like zone 5 stuff so I'll not speak about fencing it.
the 3.5 hectares are my burden. I've been on to living fences, and hedgelaying there are threads on this, here's one, just to have more ideas: https://permies.com/t/1437/woodland/Planning-growing-hedge-living-fence
I'v been putting together some numbers, if I fence out the 3.6 hectares, knowing that on side it's already fenced by my neighbor I'll work, let's say one month and probably have a fence for the next thirty years, using what we usually use as poles for fences, chestnut poles. ,
If I put a living fence I'll have to: first, plant all the tree's protecting them form the deers and the boars that sort of love to flip everything around if they don't like to eat it; then wait three or four years to have a benefit from the growing hedge.
I read this book on hedges: Murray Maclean, Hedges and Hedgelaying, the title was recommended on the thread I highlighted before, and there is a good table showing how many plants one should use it goes from 1 metre length hedge to 1 km, and from 6 inch spacing in between plants to 36 inch depending on plant growing space: so for a 655 metre hedge with 12 inch spacing the author calculates 2,182 plants
for the plants he considers a lot of varieties, because what he insists on is the importance even of wildlife conservation, as birds or small mammals, and I agree with his vision. we have to think of the hedge as an exlcuding barrier but even a wildlife housing and food feature.
Hawthorn should be not less than 60% of the plants variety beacuse it has a quick growth, then he speaks a lot of blackthorn, dog rose, field maple, hazel, if we speak of small trees or shrubs. if one wants tu use tree's the spacing is more and the time to wait to have a close hedge is longer. I would think of two more that in the book the author doesn't list: black locust, and Osage Orange quick growing and full of thornes, one could put them mixed with other plants and shrubs.
I like the idea of having yields for the deers on the hedge so they don't get to want to cross the hedge. Hedgelaying is another possibility to work quick and fast but you always get to wait three or four years. the hedge though gets thicker, even though there is maintenance to do every three or four years depends on what you want and how high. I think I'll end up fencing my plot though I will try to fencing with poles in a classic way and establish my living fence behind the day I have my poles rotting and want to take them off I'll have a living fence behind at least it will establish well and be stable for the moment it will have to be useful. the small birds and mammals will benefit from the hedge that grows even if there is a fence so I will give anyway a yield to someone.
the big point is the time we have and what we harvest form our plots.

Hi Lorenzo, 10 years after and the experience you accumulated during the process, how were you able to manage this?