capitalism, gift economy and prices that are too damn high!

Yes they do, in exactly the way you describe, I was simply pointing out the irony of "my time is worth treasures while your time is worth cents" thinking, and how we end up treating eachother due to this being the social norm......

My belief is that my neighbor is not there only for me to take advantage of, and I would prefer if he were not looking for a way to get one over on me....

The far simpler thinking of "our time is worth treasures" OR "our time is worth cents" would result in more respect for our fellows and ourselves than the current system of doing bad things to people to get more for your time.....

Most of all I see unmeasurable humor in the fact that we think we deserve to be treated in the polar opposite way than we are treating the person on the other end of a transaction relationship.....

This is also the reason most products are cheap and faulty, the expectation of a buyer who will not pay.....

A comment on my WDG ks video at youtube:

If kickstarter paid for this project to be created, why not offer the content for free? Is the goal to help others create substainable living places to live, or generate money for ones self? Workshops were paid to attend? Double dip I see.

First, I think you need to go check out kickstarter.   Kickstarter is not some generous entity that just pours money on all-the-things. People paid money to see the project completed and then get a copy.   In fact, those people paid money long before the product was complete.   Is it really fair to have them pay for it and others don't pay for it?

As to your "double dip":  I was never paid to teach that workshop.  So I guess you feel the need to make your point using false accusations?  That seems pretty wicked.  Wicked, nasty, ugly, mean, evil ... you, sir, are a festering piece of shit taking douchebaggery to new extremes.  Further, when I was there, I cooperated with the video people, but I was told that they were doing their own video project.

I think that if I choose to look past the nasty wickedness you are writing, and get on to where you are wanting to rudely butt your nose into my personal finances.  The kickstarter paid for the product to exist.  I could choose to make it free, but I don't.  First, I wish to respect my kickstarter supporters.  Second, I need that money to try to get other projects on video.  I see that in your post there is no concern for all the money that was burned for failed projects?    Or comments about how you want to chip in to cover these losses.  Yet lots and lots of people were paid for those, and that money was spent and never resulted in video projects that brought in anything.  And third:  a lot of people will never hear about this stuff or permaculture if we don't push things into commercial channels.   So, to reach those people, we have to come up with a commercial product.

And then there is the most important thing:   if you want this sort of content to be available for free, set up a workshop, arrange the video, editors, etc (for pay or other means) pay all the people that insist on being paid and then push it out there the way you think is best.   Leave me out of it.

Next up:  did you notice several DVDs worth of content that I have put up, for free, on youtube?  How about the free presentation I gave while I was teaching the workshop:



I did not get paid for that either.   But I did pay people to help me put the presentation together.

So what I see is that Jocelyn and I took a week off from my rather packed life and donated our time to help a lot of people with a lot of things.  Yet you don't say anything about that.    I think I spend massive tracts of my life giving stuff away for free.  And it seems millions of people like that stuff.   You forgot to thank me for that.  The funds that come in from what little income I have goes right out to others to make it so millions more can get stuff for free.   My taxable income is something like $3000 per year.  What is your taxable income mr. nosey?




Here is what I really see in your message:  I made something you want.  You don't want to pay for it.  You want me to give it to you for free, for no reason other than you want it.  So you whine and say nasty things in the hopes that somehow you will get it for free.  Or, you are just a fucking troll, writing shit in the hopes of getting a response and you can get the traction to say more nasty shit.  

So here is my question to you:   rather than living the life of a troll, trying to shame people into some sort of fucked up slavery within your twisted world, why don't you do something useful with your life?  

I have removed your tripe from my youtube video.  Thanks youtube for giving me a delete button.



----


Ignoring the douchebag for a moment, writing my ranty response did expose something interesting that is another angle of this thread.   The gift economy.  

I gave a lot of stuff away.  Including a mountain of advice to diego.   He was the powerhouse behind making that convergence happen.   And as the event itself had "issues" - I advised him on how to make an event that he would run.  Rather than a non-profit with a group of people that ultimately mess it all up, a for-shitty-profit venture.  He could charge a lot more money and bring in a lot bigger names than me.   He went right to work.   A year later, PV1 happened.  One of the greatest permaculture events to ever happen.  

Through a series of nutty events, I received the footage from the workshop.  

I gave a bunch of stuff without thinking of getting stuff back.   I got a lot of stuff back.  Probably not "THE" gift economy.   But it sorta is.

I wonder ....   does the gift economy only exist within capitalism?  It seems that people wish to replace capitalism with gift economy.  But if there is no capitalism, it would seem that there is no longer such a thing as a gift.  

??

paul wheaton wrote:I wonder ....   does the gift economy only exist within capitalism?  It seems that people wish to replace capitalism with gift economy.  But if there is no capitalism, it would seem that there is no longer such a thing as a gift.  

??

Potlatch was practiced before capitalism existed in n. America, so technically the answer is yes. There are probably many other forms of gift economies that existed before, during and outside capitalism.

I think maybe you’re asking a deeper question: can people give things without expecting something in return?  But since having any normal and healthy relationship requires reciprocity, i think expecting or desiring something in return is not in and of itself unhealthy. It’s how one manages that desire.
William

William James wrote:I think maybe you’re asking a deeper question: can people give things without expecting something in return?  

I think the world is loaded with stuff given without expecting something in return.

Here is something I gave away without expecting something in return.  I made a web page in an effort to share information on something that was under documented on the internet.  

At the time, most of the content on the internet was exactly that:  stuff that was given away without expectation of getting anything in return.  

What about the permies.com staff?  They give their time with no expectation of something in return.

I know that there have been many times that a stranger has done something kind for me without expecting something in return.

So I think there is already a lot of that.

In all of these cases, we can use the word "gift".  And my point is that if reciprocity disappeared entirely, would the word "gift" also disappear?

I believe David Graeber ('Debt: the First 5000 Years) said it is clear from anthropology, that in 'primitive' societies, goods and services were 'allotted' using a system of 'mutual obligation'.  It was understood that if Harry needed shoes, the shoemaker would give him a pair, with the common understanding that when the shoemaker needed cheese, Harry would fill the needed. This 'obligation' was understood by all, as the price of social security, so needs were typically smoothly met.   When there was something that appeared to be 'money', it was only used ceremonially.  It would seem that when actual coinage came along, debt also arrived, as the societal obligation could be measured, quantified, traded, etc.  
This
(BTW, David Graebder died of so-far unknown causes in the fall of 2019... also Kary Mullis [inventor of the PCR test] also died, fortuitiously?, at the same time.)

When people volunteer, most of the time what they “get in return” is intangible, like a sense of having helped, or having “done something” for a cause or the personal relationships that stem from the “work”. The intangibles are endless.

As for the other question, that of reciprocity ending, i think we would be in a “last person on earth” scenario, and still there would be “gifts” from the plants and animals and rocks and all the other beings we share space with and have reciprocal relationships with.

It reminds me of a fun film called Nothing (2003).
William

Part of the idea is philosophically, where does your self begin and where does society begin? Modern physics and biology explain to us that we aren't just our bodies, and we can't really separate ourselves from others in the tidy way that Libertarians think we can. The atoms in our bodies are made up mostly of space, and they are still moving.  You can't know exactly where the electron is and know its speed at the same time.   Many people contribute because they think it's a good thing to do, without understanding precisely if anything is coming back to them.  Are they contributing to an object known as their body? We are all moving in concert with one another.  The story or dance that we create is our gift to society. Is it a gift or is it art? Perhaps both.  We could deny that it is art, but then it's just bad art.
John S
PDX OR

Just discovered this thread, reminding me I have a few code libraries that need to be thrown up on github because I don't need it or use it and somebody else might. Why should I horde things that others can be using? I have found copyright and intellectual property rights to be more of a burden than useful, especially in patents which unless you have the $$$ to enforce will just be undermined by China.

With the internet making it easier for people to barter and do work trades I think we will see more of a gift economy as long as monopolies, governments, banks don't centralize everything first. Many companies are finding "open source" and "direct to consumer" models are more profitable.

Is the fourth sector "for benefit corporation" the gift economy? Wonder why it has not been accepted by the "capitalist" US as a formal option.

Re: 'avoiding the party politics', I'd like to share something I just learned - the Grange Motto.  
"In essentials, unity;
in non-essentials, freedom;
in all things, charity."

I wish we could all drop our 'colors' (leave the 'divide and conquer' aggressive team 'games' that we are sucked into - deliberately?), find that which we share (somewhere in the 'middle' ?), and work together to promote the common good.  BTW, I think that 'working together' is the easiest, best way to promote community.... meetings, not so much : )  Plus, many hands make light work.