Permaculture and Autism, Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), and Asperger's

he also showed that there were biological differences, an over sensitized central nervous system with greater response to sensual stimulation

Hans Quistorff wrote:

For those looking for a mate, I have observed that it sometimes means accepting that it may be someone older or younger to match your state of development.

Kim Arnold wrote: Surely there were people on the spectrum, even if they were not officially diagnosed, right?

Kim Arnold wrote:Well, now there is a generation of students coming of age who have been learning about the needs of people on the spectrum since they were little. Teachers have had more training as has society in general. Schools are definitely making the effort to accommodate for needs, teach social skills, and educate other kids and their parents about the needs of ASD children. Here's my question: Is that making any difference? Is society in general becoming more accepting of the unique needs of aspies now that they know more about what is going on? I know it's not "perfect" yet, but is it at least moving in the right direction?

Kim Arnold wrote:
The experiences I've had with many different students is that they have unique needs, interests, etc. Some will love any nature experiences that they can get, but others seem much more attached to electronic devices and more remote interactions with people. I'm not willing to weigh in with any judgements about that, but going back to the original post, it makes sense that some kids will love premaculture experiences. Designing areas with their needs in mind will be appreciated by them and by others. But, it's definitely not a "one size fits all" kind of thing, so it would be unrealistic to think that all kids would like it.

Neil Layton wrote: The onus is not on everyone to fit into neurotypical monoculture, but for everyone to accept a social polyculture.

Brian Stretch wrote:I have high-functioning Asperger's. I've spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about it and sorting out my health. A quick brain dump:

Non-high-functioning autism (to me) revolves around the immune system, most of which is in the gut. Clean food is critical. No artificials, no refined sugar, no grains (especially wheat), no soy. Heavy on pastured meats and fats. NTs can tolerate more crap than we can. A permaculture farm with a heavy emphasis on pastured livestock sounds appealing to me.

"Stealth" pathogens appear to be one influence. Lyme, Bartonella, mycoplasmas, etc. Look up Stephen Buhner's books. Testing is unreliable. Much needs to be learned. These things tend to love sugar.

The human immune system isn't fully in place until 3-4 years of age. Hit it hard enough before then...

The countless tons of poisons conventional agriculture dumps into the environment are causing very rapid bacterial evolution, including developing offensive capabilities. This is a problem for slow-evolving humans. Especially humans with compromised immune systems from a diet of industrial food-like products.

Starting to see why autism is becoming so prevalent? And how permaculture fits in as one potent remedy?

I started becoming considerably less high-functioning in high school. I started reversing the slide when I cleaned up my diet. Still not where I want to be. It infuriates me that our non-high-functioning brethren are fed crap and assured that food has nothing to do with their condition. Bringing some of them out to permaculture farms to detox would be a very interesting experiment. My one concern is tick-borne illnesses, but a healthy complement of chickens and friendly neighborhood opossums might keep ticks and such suppressed?

C. Letellier wrote:
Now you will say faking it is hiding too. It isn't. It is simply good manners and getting along in society. Everyone has to do a certain amount of it. For example I find that sharing how my mind it actually working is a good way to get in trouble. Usually it is the fact that it is taken out of context that gets me in trouble. Take an example clear back to HS. Someone wanted to know how to pick the principle's wife out of the crowd. My comment was to "find the lady who looks like a bulldog". This of course drew gasps from most of the little group I said it to. Now everyone there was thinking I was insulting her. Funny thing is that in my stream of conciousness at the time there was absolutely no insult intended. I wasn't implying she looked like a dog or was ugly or any other thing that could be read into that comment. I was simply pointing to 3 features that combined made her face shape look like a bulldog. To me that was the obvious pattern and I was completely oblivious to the possible insult in the thinking. It didn't even register to me. I knew people gasped but it literally took me hours to figure out why. My stream of conciousness is just as shocking and messed up now as it was then. The difference is that I apply better filters to what I let out of my mouth most of the time. I still step badly in it occasionally. But now I know to filter and I know to read reactions and try and take corrective action as needed. Those are skills that can be learned. Still a work in progress but getting better.
But without all the rough patches I have hit I would not have grown like I have.

Kitty Leith wrote:
But what's so bad about none of the above for grown-ups? What's so bad about a life apart? All these recent studies about isolation being bad for one's health and everything. Well what if society is bad for the health of someone with ASD? Being in fight or flight mode and stressed out and uncomfortable all the time is not healthy either! Maybe volunteer segregation is really self-care! I'm 51, have worked very hard at fitting in, and do for the most part (but at what cost?), and I haven't had any self-care and I feel frantic in need to retreat - not as a negative running away but as a positive let me finally be good to me.

Kitty Leith wrote:
I don't know if you could call a couple hermits, or if that's an oxymoron, but an eco-village of two - if only for the practicality of it - would be ideal (manageable). For me.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Kitty Leith wrote:
I don't know if you could call a couple hermits, or if that's an oxymoron, but an eco-village of two - if only for the practicality of it - would be ideal (manageable). For me.

That's more or less the situation I have with my husband, though I do have brief interaction with neighbors every couple of weeks. The main problem with the ecovillage of two comes when one partner dies.

I don't do tests. I don't go to a (psych.) doctor to have a diagnosis. I don't want to be 'labeled' (put in a box). I like being who I am, the way I am.
I think it's impossible to be 'like other people', because all 'other people' are different individuals! In my opinion there is no such thing as 'a normal person'. Yes, you can talk about 'average people'... but someone exactly like that does not exist.

[The main problem with the ecovillage of two comes when one partner dies. /quote]

I don't know what the statistics are, but don't the survivors not last long after one partner dies? Maybe they should get rid of that 'til death do us part' thing and let couples die together.


Once again, I'm envious Tyler. I'd love an eco-village of two. (I think I coined that term!) I always liked how Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera had separate houses joined by a bridge. One's own space is so important.

C. Letellier wrote:

I would say it is all about balance in life. If I let the fact that I will stick my foot in my mouth(often clear up the hip) keep me from speaking then I am denying those gifts. If I let any fear that is mostly harmless rule my life that is true. If I go and steadily hide out in the country because that is where I am the most comfortable then I am denying those gifts. By the same token if I destroy myself by not doing what I need to stay emotionally healthy I also can't do as much and that is also bad. I can't and don't want to any way tell people how to live their lives in this reguard. But I do think to many people err on the side of safety rather than growth and trying to be their best selves.

Neil Layton wrote:I can then have insights, which I can then write about

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Neil Layton wrote:I can then have insights, which I can then write about

One of the wonderful things about humans is that we can reach across time and space to touch each other deeply with the written word. If it is too painful to rub up against humanity in person, being able to touch them with written words is a gift.

Nicole Alderman wrote:I've also noticed that diet and sleep have a huge impact on how well I can function. I think this applies to everyone, but our need for sleep and quality food might be higher than with NT (just as some people can get by on 5 hours of sleep a night, but others always need 8-9). When I don't get good sleep &/or good food, I am far more easily over-stimulated, more on the verge of meltdowns, my words come out wrong more (I jumble them up, can't remember words, or struggle to formulate my thoughts into words), and I have an even harder time reading situations.

Diet and sleep, don't seem to transform me from "aspie" to "neurotypical," but it does greatly impact how easily my brain gets overwhelmed. I don't want to change who I am, I just want to be able to function as best I can.

Speaking of the affect of food and sleep upon aspies' ability to function, i wonder how much of their affect comes down to hormones...

My husband and I have frequently wondered how we managed to create a son who is intelligent, honest... and shares none of our aspie weaknesses. I do wonder how much of it is due to the fact that we have consistently given him good, organic, non-inflammatory foods; a low-stress, stable environment; and as much sleep as we could provide (I work very hard to get him as much sleep as he can get. I'm positive if I didn't spend so much time patting and singing--and nursing--him to sleep, he would have had probably 4 hours less sleep per day than he currently gets). The infant through preschool years are so crucial to forming brains, and there is just so much that affects that development!

Kitty Leith wrote: I apologized to my daughter in advance the other day, asking her to try and understand if I ever appear unfeeling, and explained how I don't really know my emotions. I told her it's like: hey! what is this moisture in my eye? Oh! It must mean I am sad. That blew her mind. "Wait - you have a physical response first and then have to figure out what it is?" It blew my mind that that blew her mind, because that state of being isn't remarkable to me. I am the opposite of a drama queen because it's hard to be dramatic about something you have little feeling about. Sometimes I wonder what it is like to feel so much - if it makes life more enjoyable - but then I watch those with smiley faces and heart-dotted i's crash and burn and remember to be thankful for being spared all that. It's nice to get excited about concepts instead.

Kitty Leith wrote:

I don't do tests....

I get your pride, but the way you phrased it feels dismissive to me. There ARE differences which DO seriously impact the individuals. Just look at the profoundly autistic who can not live independently. Most people who read about Asperger's can relate to some of it and some wish they could use it as an excuse. But it's not an excuse. It's not relating to some of it, it's being profoundly impacted by a lot of it. It truly is being wired differently to the degree it is a disability.

The label recognizes that the challenges are real and extraordinary, and I embrace that. That society has pathologized it, misunderstands it, sometimes covets and envies it, is their problem that needs to be enlightened.

I like who I am, the way I am too. And I welcome a diagnosis because if I am wired differently then all my struggles will have made sense.

Kim Arnold wrote:There is soooo much going on in this thread, it's hard to know where to jump in. I do have a question that some of you who have been dealing with the spectrum longer may be able to answer.

I'm a teacher. There were not ANY [officially diagnosed] ASD/Aspie kids in the schools when I started teaching. They have only really been recognized the last 15 years or so (maybe more). So, in the "old days," those who were more adapted to social conventions were never taught about the different needs of that population and grew up believing whatever it was they figured out about people on the spectrum. Surely there were people on the spectrum, even if they were not officially diagnosed, right?

Well, now there is a generation of students coming of age who have been learning about the needs of people on the spectrum since they were little. Teachers have had more training as has society in general. Schools are definitely making the effort to accommodate for needs, teach social skills, and educate other kids and their parents about the needs of ASD children. Here's my question: Is that making any difference? Is society in general becoming more accepting of the unique needs of aspies now that they know more about what is going on? I know it's not "perfect" yet, but is it at least moving in the right direction?

The experiences I've had with many different students is that they have unique needs, interests, etc. Some will love any nature experiences that they can get, but others seem much more attached to electronic devices and more remote interactions with people. I'm not willing to weigh in with any judgements about that, but going back to the original post, it makes sense that some kids will love premaculture experiences. Designing areas with their needs in mind will be appreciated by them and by others. But, it's definitely not a "one size fits all" kind of thing, so it would be unrealistic to think that all kids would like it.

Matt McCarthy wrote:
As one with a diagnosis and a nasty five week hospital visit I'd lean towards it being a pure neurological developmental shebang, and that unless you're impaired enough to impact your lifestyle, it's beter to leave the self-diagnosis alone and consider you've got a handy smattering of traits, as opposed to the more serious issues like having trouble recognising faces due to distortions of expressions, or the complexities of others and your own emotional states.

Having an autistic mother is detrimental to a child, regardless of whether the child is autistic or not, and regardless of the child’s ability to cope with the parental abnormality. I apologize in advance to those who no doubt will be offended by my remarks, but I think is just plain wrong and selfish to impose autistic parenting on any child and to risk passing on autism to one’s progeny. The burden on society to care for autistics is growing while governmental resources are diminishing.. If you know you are autistic, then please, for the sake of the future child and the rest of society, do not reproduce..

I think AS parents should be treated as any other mentally ill person. Should schizophrenics be encouraged to become parents… how about people who are bipolar? And what about sociopaths? You wouldn’t want these people to miss out on the joys of parenting regardless of the effect on the children. Further, it is not helpful for AS parents to comment on how well adjusted there children are, nor is it helpful for AS children of AS parents. If you are a parent with AS, have your NT child post about you, especially if they had an absent NT parent where YOU were their sole parent. If you get 100 positive comments from them…. have all the kids you want. If not sterilization is preferable. If that saves one child it will be worth it!

Neil Layton wrote:
If you break the Rules you will be excluded from society.

Nicole Alderman wrote:

Having an autistic mother is detrimental to a child, regardless of whether the child is autistic or not, and regardless of the child’s ability to cope with the parental abnormality. I apologize in advance to those who no doubt will be offended by my remarks, but I think is just plain wrong and selfish to impose autistic parenting on any child and to risk passing on autism to one’s progeny. The burden on society to care for autistics is growing while governmental resources are diminishing.. If you know you are autistic, then please, for the sake of the future child and the rest of society, do not reproduce..

And, even nicer:

I think AS parents should be treated as any other mentally ill person. Should schizophrenics be encouraged to become parents… how about people who are bipolar? And what about sociopaths? You wouldn’t want these people to miss out on the joys of parenting regardless of the effect on the children. Further, it is not helpful for AS parents to comment on how well adjusted there children are, nor is it helpful for AS children of AS parents. If you are a parent with AS, have your NT child post about you, especially if they had an absent NT parent where YOU were their sole parent. If you get 100 positive comments from them…. have all the kids you want. If not sterilization is preferable. If that saves one child it will be worth it!

And, in a world where people are like those quoted above, having a formal diagnosis is NOT always a good thing.

Some of the things that I envision in my design are balance beam/obstacle course type areas.

So yes I feel different and with some capacities (taht are the gift of having to adapt to the world), but at the same time I accept the part that I am also "ill", and not only different. Anyway, we are all ill and hurt in a way or another.... So there is no problem for me. The good news is about healing most of it, AND keeping the gift we have developped while surviving and adapting to this world.

The self-reliant individual is a myth that needs updating

The thesis that even celebrated loners in history and literature had companions so they weren't really self-reliant, that true strength lies in the courage to make oneself vulnerable to connection, that this is a feminine act, and that connection in society is the thing we should really be celebrating, and this is what we are all supposed to want...rubs me all wrong...it's not like that wasn't thought of or attempted.

Chris Pampo wrote:My son is 13, and when he was probably 10, his pediatrician convinced me to take him to a psychologist because she was sure he had Asperger's.  ...  Well, the "experts" told me that he tested "just below" the threshold for Asperger's, so they would not give him a diagnosis. ... He is very intelligent and gets straight As in school, but I have a hard time getting him interested in anything other than video games.