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Hey everyone! im super excited to do some metal working with yall this summer and it seems there is a lot of interest in a rocket forge experiment so lets get it started!

tickets to the PTJ can be found here! --> https://wheaton-labs.com/permaculture-tech/?f=625

The goal of this project is to build a forge and bellows, and to experiment with a rocket forge.  students will learn the basics of forge design, hammer work, and heat treatment of tools.  experiments will be conducted to incorporate rocket design features (clean burn, self feeding, natural draft) into a functional forge.  the Lab will be left with a functional forge that will burn wood, charcoal, or coal and a bellows to provide the air.  

phase 1. Building the forge and bellows:
we will build a "regular" forge.  using simple materials from the site we will construct a forge that anyone can replicate at home. an ancient design that still sees use by talented metal workers to this day. Uncle Mud wants to call it a Dirt Forge. people on the smithing forum "iforgeiron" sometimes call it a JABOD (just a box of dirt) (pics to come)

a set of hand operated bellows will be built to provide air for the forge. (pics to come)  the forge can be run with a thrifted hairdryer as the air supply if people are feeling anxious to get a fire going before the bellows are done.

the dirt forge and bellows will work as our control so we have something to compare our rocket experiments to.

phase 2. rocket experiments:
broadly speaking there are two approaches here.
1. direct the hot exhaust gases from a rocket engine into a insulated work chamber where the iron is heated. this is most similar to how modern propane forges function and is how the current rocket forge functions.

2. use the strong draft of the rocket riser to pull air thru the fuel (wood, charcoal) and bury the iron to be worked directly in the coals. this is most similar to how solid fuel forges work and takes advantage of the greater heat transfer between the coals and the metal, rather than just using the hot gasses.


we will have a beautiful 8in rocket engine to play with for these experiments, as well as the basic materials to cobble together a simpler rocket core

note: throughout phases 1 and 2 we will be using both forges to construct blacksmith tools that will stay at the lab  

phase 3. goofing around:
building a small retort for making charcoal that can be placed on top of the rocket riser. wood gas can be sent back into the system.
make the bellows pedal powered!
find other projects around the site that could use some fancy iron work

did a bit of poking around the forums and gathered up some good information about the work thats already been done:

the rocket kiln project last year produced some great data here: https://permies.com/wiki/184037/Inch-Portable-Modular-Rocket-Engine

my notes from this thread:
8 in engine kiln in low position 2077 bottom 1945 top. 2 hours (pass thru)
6 in engine kiln on top of riser 2296 bottom 2259 top. 5 hours (pass thru)
Pauls 2088 top 1945 bottom 5 hours (captive design)
these numbers represent the "heat work" done inside the kiln.  for hobby smithing work these temps are fine, the question is can we get the steel to these temps in a couple minutes rather than a couple hours.

this thread has a lot of good ideas too. dealing with forge design (for smithing) and furnace design (for melting metals): https://permies.com/t/166851/rocket-forge-steel-insertion-crucible

my notes from this thread:
A hole or door in the vertical riser in the sweet spot. (this is the current version of the rocket forge)
The hole could have a foot activated door. (not an uncommon design on modern propane forges)
Built in retort after the forge area for making charcoal, wood gas to be sent back down to the feed tube. (there seems to be interest from others here. might as well utilize some of that wasted heat)
Multiple feed tubes with risers spiraling around a central crucible. (love the go big or go home energy)
Paul says no shop vac for the rocket forge/ furnace experiment. (i agree. if we are gunna use a forced air draft its not really a "rocket" any more)
Paul thinks crucible access should be from side. (meh. top access for loading materials during firing is nice)
Insulated chimney above work area to increase draw. hopefully will help the forge draw better even if the forge doors are opened





Staff note (Jules Silverlock) :

Join Justin and a bunch of other talented instructors at this year's PTJ: https://permies.com/s/build-a-smithy

COMMENTS:
 
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Hey Justin! This is very exciting and something I know heaps of people will be interested in.

On the rocket kiln aspect, I wondered if this podcast might be of help to you:

https://permies.com/wiki/212252/Podcast-PTJ-Recap-Session-Part

Paul is chatting to Lisa Orr and Uncle Mud to discuss the Rocket Kiln stuff from the PTJ - perhaps it'll have some nuggets of info to help in your quest?

 
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Most of the seasoned wood around the lab is coniferous. I've seen some black locust that gets broken out for high BTU applications, but no idea how much is available...
 
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Justin Popa wrote:Built in retort after the forge area for making charcoal, wood gas to be sent back down to the feed tube.

   

This seems very useful.
Drying out fuel is a natural use of otherwise wasted energy.    
Pyrolysis is a further step.  
That said, I wonder if a rocket could be used to create draft for a charcoal forge, either by heating combustion air indirectly or an under tuned rocket exhasting unburnt gases into the coal bed.    


 
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William Bronson wrote:

Justin Popa wrote:Built in retort after the forge area for making charcoal, wood gas to be sent back down to the feed tube.

   
This seems very useful.
Drying out fuel is a natural use of otherwise wasted energy.    
Pyrolysis is a further step.  
That said, I wonder if a rocket could be used to create draft for a charcoal forge, either by heating combustion air indirectly or an under tuned rocket exhasting unburnt gases into the coal bed.



"Built in retort after the forge area for making charcoal, wood gas to be sent back down to the feed tube."
This comment was mine from the original thread last year...

I was thinking that adding the wood gas as "secondary fuel" along with a complimentary "secondary air" supply would be easy to add to the rocket (or to a batch box for that matter).
I bet this wood gas could also be added to a traditional charcoal forge firepot, but I'm having trouble seeing a rocket feeding into a charcoal forge... without burning up a grate/tuyere, or restricting the draft created with said grate or the charcoal bed.

But the charcoal production was certainly intended for fueling a traditional charcoal forge, though again, it could also be fed to the rocket instead of wood, possibly to greater heat effect?
Even incompletely charred wood in the retort would, as you say William, make for good dry fuel, which in the eyes of a charcoal-burner would be a fault in the doing... here, it's all good!
 
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Thanks for the feed back everyone!

Jules: thanks! here are some of my notes after listening:

2200 gases/ 2000 cones is good for hobby work. Like pottery, we are interested in the temp of the wares inside the forge/ furnace, not just the exhaust temps. The highest temps needed for forging operations like welding reach up to 2400

paul: lots of yellow bricks

Lisa notes the difference between reducing and oxidizing from a potters perspective as the difference between smoke and no smoke. In blacksmithing a reducing or neutral flame is usually desired. Meaning no excess unburnt oxygen should be present where the work is done. The type of atmosphere (reducing, neutral, or oxidizing) desired for foundry work depends on the material being cast and the operation being done. Fuel to oxygen mixture can be regulated by a choke at the inlet (feed tube) and/or outlet (riser).

Lisa notes glazed wares on the bottom of the riser were in a reducing atmosphere, in this instance, the presence of unburnt fuel

Mud : 4 in of insulation, front and back clean outs, portable, modular, high performance j tube $1000

Lisa: high fire 2350 degrees in 5 hours, 3 ½ arm loads of wood

Mud: sweet spot somewhere in middle of riser  

Coydon: thanks! Id one day love to experiment with different wood types and their effects as a forge fuel but for now with so many other things to experiment with sticking with the mixed conifers is fine. one less variable to mess with.

Kenneth: Yes i love the idea! and since it would be using the waste heat after the forge or furnace, it could be built separately and plugged in as needed without disrupting the main system.  i didnt mean to pass this off as my own, i just compiled what i felt was the highlights of last years thread.

William: as far as im concerned a regular ol solid fuel forge is hard to beat, but the whole point of this project is to experiment with rocket stuff so experiment we shall!  the rockets ability to draw gasses without additional forced air is specifically what id like to tap into somehow. ive got some ideas brewing.

 
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hey all!

Ive been doing some reading and learning about old forge and furnace design and thought id share some really neat examples of human ingenuity in the world of metal working.

First I figured there must be an example of a furnace or forge that uses a natural draft like a rocket, my brother pointed me towards a Reverberatory Furnace used for Puddling Wrought Iron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverberatory_furnace


these furnaces were designed to refine pig iron into more malleable wrought iron but were also used in melting metals for casting. the wiki articles are def worth a read if you like metallurgy or historic technologies.  tell me that thing doesnt look like a rocket!    

i havent found a historical example yet of a forge powered by a natural draft but some of the same principles used in the Reverbatory furnace could be used with a rocket forge.  before electrical pumps and blowers could be used to push air into forges and furnaces large bellows were used. bellows for small forges were hand powered but for large shops they were almost always powered by a water wheel. here is an amazing video of a shop being run with tech that basically didnt change for 100s of years!

https://video.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t42.1790-2/10000000_618012310015050_3883594604958467264_n.mp4?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=985c63&efg=eyJ2ZW5jb2RlX3RhZyI6InN2ZV9zZCJ9&_nc_ohc=VAdh1sZfMo8AX_aQSjk&_nc_rml=0&_nc_ht=video.fyip1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDfOtXrUohSjMtiq6eIwM8GGrZGIfybNPHEh8IXsnsQeA&oe=645F1E3B

and as a final thing to think about i present to you the Trompe!  an amazing way to turn falling water into compressed air. not a rocket at all but a really cool way to push air without electricity or a ton of labor pumping a bellows.  is there any falling water at Wheaton Labs we can play with?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompe
 
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Are there plans to make this RMH produce electricity while it forging a knife? That would be crazy cool! The main PTJ thread has a "RMH that generates electricity" as a possible project....
 
Justin Popa
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can anyone tell me about the current metal working space at the Labs?

part of this project will be building a simple forge and experimenting with a rocket forge design. along with that there are a lot of blacksmith tools that we can make once we have a working forge:
tongs for holding the hot metal
chisels for cutting
punches for making holes
drifts for sizing and shaping holes
bending forks and wrenches for bending and twisting
rakes and washers for tending the fire

id love to guide people thru making any and all of these tools. it would be a great way to learn basic hammer work, heat treating, material selection, and finishing.

however there are a few things that would be really nice to have on hand at the start:
a designated covered work area.
an anvil or other large block of steel
a (heavy) bench with a (heavy) vice
electrical access would be cool but not required

to make any of this happen we need materials. no matter what gets built we will need:
earth/ cob
firebrick
rockwool
satanite or other refractory lining
lumber
scrap metal (bar stock, old tools, sheet metal, barrels, buckets, ect.)

also:
Monica, no current plans to make this thing produce electricity but that sure would be sweet




 
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Justin Popa wrote:can anyone tell me about the current metal working space at the Labs?

part of this project will be building a simple forge and experimenting with a rocket forge design. along with that there are a lot of blacksmith tools that we can make once we have a working forge:
tongs for holding the hot metal
chisels for cutting
punches for making holes
drifts for sizing and shaping holes
bending forks and wrenches for bending and twisting
rakes and washers for tending the fire

id love to guide people thru making any and all of these tools. it would be a great way to learn basic hammer work, heat treating, material selection, and finishing.



Yes, yes, yes, this is perfect for the PTJ and the Lab.

Let me ping some boots and talk to Mud and Paul about some of these particulars tomorrow.

however there are a few things that would be really nice to have on hand at the start:
a designated covered work area.
an anvil or other large block of steel
a (heavy) bench with a (heavy) vice
electrical access would be cool but not required



The shop is a busy hub of activity for lots of projects, but I bet there has already been discussion about where to put you.  Is a tent sufficient?  Or do you need a propper interior building sorta space?

I know there are a few beefy anvils.  
I know we have some benches & vices - need to make sure they can be present in your space
Electrical is nearby

to make any of this happen we need materials. no matter what gets built we will need:
earth/ cob
firebrick
rockwool
satanite or other refractory lining
lumber
scrap metal (bar stock, old tools, sheet metal, barrels, buckets, ect.)



All this should be available in abundance - perhaps we may get some volume needs from you on some of the specialty items.  




 
Beau M. Davidson
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Just in case folks don't realize what a ridiculous and opulent luxury operation this is gonna be, I just swiped a quick screen-grab from Justin's instagram:
Screen-Shot-2023-05-25-at-3.11.59-PM.png
[Thumbnail for Screen-Shot-2023-05-25-at-3.11.59-PM.png]
 
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I wondered last year if we could get our hands on a few loads of osage or black locust to burn hotter.  I don't have a concrete idea of what kind of temp boost we'd get, but I have to think it would be a serious bump.
 
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Beau M. Davidson wrote:I don't have a concrete idea of what kind of temp boost we'd get, but I have to think it would be a serious bump.


I agree that hardwoods will likely be essential for the temps that Justin wants to achieve. I'll have time to meet with Paul early next week and discuss the various "wish lists" from PTJ instructors and facilitators and see what we can manage. I hope, hope, hope that local hardwoods can be on that list.

Regarding other items on Justin's wish list:
- We just moved an anvil earlier this week and there were questions about to where it ought to be moved. We'll keep it nearby. Maybe there's another one somewhere round here...? I'll look.
- There's Rockwool crawling all over the place here, and some superwool.
- We have various hand tools, though I am doubtful any are specific to metalworking. We do have punches, chisels, etc. of various sizes.
- There's plenty of scrap, particularly sheet metal.  We will likely be able to retrieve more for you from a place we call the Boneyard. When you're here, I'll be sure to drive you over there (it's in the Lab) and we can haul back nearly anything you want to mess with.

Doing my best to keep up on these requests. We have a small team at the moment and the new well installation has been nearly an all-consuming process.
 
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Justin Popa wrote:

and as a final thing to think about i present to you the Trompe!  an amazing way to turn falling water into compressed air. not a rocket at all but a really cool way to push air without electricity or a ton of labor pumping a bellows.  is there any falling water at Wheaton Labs we can play with?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompe



I can’t talk about what is there currently, but as of last summer, there wasn’t any falling water.

That said, there was a project last summer that used a submersible pump. That could be used to put water uphill and then let it fall. Hope that helps.

—matt
 
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Perhaps another PTJ project to consider would be a pipe to hook up to the bilge pump in the submarine, when it is not on a misson and parked in the volcano, to pump water up to a reservoir on the caldera. Eventually it could be released in a cascade down to base camp with the flow utilized along the way.
 
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thanks for the feedback everyone!

Beau: a tent is fine as a building and experimenting space. whats most important is some deep shade so that the color of the hot iron can be read easily and ventilation so people arent sucking in smoke.  ive done my fair share of shade tree blacksmithing and its nice to be out in the breeze.  on the other hand its much more efficient to have a bench and anvil and forge all mounted firmly to level ground inside a proper shop.  working inside would mean needing to install some kind of flue for the forge or furnace. even rockets produce gases we dont want in enclosed spaces.  i think the easiest would be a covered outside space to build and play and experiment, and we can work on creating a permanent inside shop space as time and interest allow.

as for material volumes. "normal" forges and furnaces are pretty small and simple so the building materials will be used mostly for the rocket parts of the system. enough junk to cobble together 1 or 2 rocket engines should be plenty to play with  

a final note on air supply.  its already been decided that the rocket forge and rocket furnace experiments will not include any forced air (shop vac, ect). i agree. if youre gunna push the air manually, it isnt really a rocket anymore.  however! for the initial build of the "normal" forge, some kind of air supply is needed.  old hairdryers work great and are easy to thrift. shop vacs work ok but are loud and tend to push too much air unless you run them thru a rheostat to adjust the amperage. and of course we can build some kind of manually operated bellows if people wanna go oldschool.  there are tons of well tested designs for hand pump bellows and i can see them being useful around the labs for future experiments too.  any thoughts on this?  
 
Beau M. Davidson
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Justin Popa wrote:thanks for the feedback everyone!

Beau: a tent is fine as a building and experimenting space. whats most important is some deep shade so that the color of the hot iron can be read easily and ventilation so people arent sucking in smoke.  ive done my fair share of shade tree blacksmithing and its nice to be out in the breeze.  on the other hand its much more efficient to have a bench and anvil and forge all mounted firmly to level ground inside a proper shop.  working inside would mean needing to install some kind of flue for the forge or furnace. even rockets produce gases we dont want in enclosed spaces.  i think the easiest would be a covered outside space to build and play and experiment, and we can work on creating a permanent inside shop space as time and interest allow.

as for material volumes. "normal" forges and furnaces are pretty small and simple so the building materials will be used mostly for the rocket parts of the system. enough junk to cobble together 1 or 2 rocket engines should be plenty to play with  

a final note on air supply.  its already been decided that the rocket forge and rocket furnace experiments will not include any forced air (shop vac, ect). i agree. if youre gunna push the air manually, it isnt really a rocket anymore.  however! for the initial build of the "normal" forge, some kind of air supply is needed.  old hairdryers work great and are easy to thrift. shop vacs work ok but are loud and tend to push too much air unless you run them thru a rheostat to adjust the amperage. and of course we can build some kind of manually operated bellows if people wanna go oldschool.  there are tons of well tested designs for hand pump bellows and i can see them being useful around the labs for future experiments too.  any thoughts on this?  



We're hanging a few new shade sails over the area behind the shop, but I'm not sure how "deep" the shade is.  It might be we need to add a layer to meet your shade needs.  The shop itself is usually quasi-available between meal-times, but it has to be totally cleared out for meal setup 3 times per day, which sounds like a nuisance when working on projects, so I'm guessing outside will be a better option.  So - shade sail?  Shade sail plus canopy & sidewalls?  Something with deeper shade?

I think it's fine to have a few thrifted hair dryers on hand, but I think it would be triply cool to work a manual bellows into the plan.  Will the design be able to swap bellows/hair dryer through the same supply opening to give you operational options?
 
Stephen B. Thomas
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Justin Popa wrote:a final note on air supply. [...] there are tons of well tested designs for hand pump bellows and i can see them being useful around the labs for future experiments too.  any thoughts on this?  


Personally, I think hand-pump bellows would be an excellent artifact from this event.

Another random thought here... There are a number of spare bicycles here at basecamp. Any chance you know of a design where one of them can be fitted to provide the energy needed to inflate/deflate a bellows? It's been way too long since I've had a decent bike workout...
 
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For Justin: some quick snapshots of the scrap metal we currently have on hand in the shop. This may give you an idea of the kind of stuff we can quickly get moving for you.







We have a number of larger pieces in an area called the "Boneyard" over at the Lab. Once you're on-site, I can show you around the workshop, then take you over to the Boneyard and I am thinking you'll have access to most of the unused materials we have over there, as well.

Any more questions? Please ask.
 
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things are coming together!

Beau. a shade sail sounds great. we can rig up something extra if its still too bright but i woulndt worry about it yet.
the forge cares not where the air flows from, only that it flows! a hairdryer or a proper bellows will be interchangable.

Thomas! thanks for the pics, my dude!  it looks like yall have more than enough steel to play with.  im sure we can find a way to hook a bike up to the bellows as well, in fact, i insist.  people have always been looking for a way to not have to pump the bellows. in big shops they were often powered by a water wheel, but ive seen at least one 18th century image of a nail making shop where the bellows is run by dogs walking on a giant hamster wheel!

Also also!
early last week i had a nice long chat with Uncle Mud about this project and the work thats already been done on rocket forge designs.  we talked about what people have already tried and about some fun discoveries they made.  he said the realy nice 8in rocket engine they made last year (the year before?) will be available for this project! which will be a huge help in the rocket experiment phase.

at this point the main goal for the project is well established. ill change the top post on this page to reflect the primary goal of "build a functional forge, bellows, and tool set" ill start sharing my thoughts on the secondary "experimental phase" as soon as i can get some sketches down on paper.  
 
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Bellows talk!

there are lots of ways to push air.

modern smiths tend to use what is often called a blower. a fan or impeller that is turned by a motor or hand crank to push air into the fire. the air flow rate is easily adjustable and they dont take up a lot of space. we are not going to make a blower but we can thrift a hairdryer or old furnace fan to work as one in a pinch.

before the blower was the bellows and they come in lots of designs.
to keep things simple id like to make a pair of single lung bellows. they should be easy to make, easy to transport and store, and give us the ability to adjust our air flow rate.


if we build two bellows, each one 2-3 feet long and 1-2 feet wide, we can keep a steady and adjustable supply of air moving into the forge. they can be operated by one person while another person uses the forge or we can rig them to a frame and have them operated with a single lever.

tools needed to build the bellows:
saw, drill, rasps, scissors/ razor

materials needed:
wood, nails/tacks/screws, glue, leather or similar "skin", some bits of pipe

are these tools and materials available at the lab? specifically im concerned about the material for the skin of the bellows. soft leather is the best but a tight canvas might do. if push comes to shove im sure a bit of old vinyl billboard will work too.

thoughts?
 
Justin Popa
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muds sketches of the current rocket engine and how we might use it as a forge. using either the hot gasses or the coals themselves.




 
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Justin Popa wrote:can anyone tell me about the current metal working space at the Labs?

part of this project will be building a simple forge and experimenting with a rocket forge design. along with that there are a lot of blacksmith tools that we can make once we have a working forge:
tongs for holding the hot metal
chisels for cutting
punches for making holes
drifts for sizing and shaping holes
bending forks and wrenches for bending and twisting
rakes and washers for tending the fire

id love to guide people thru making any and all of these tools. it would be a great way to learn basic hammer work, heat treating, material selection, and finishing.

Look here for info

however there are a few things that would be really nice to have on hand at the start:
a designated covered work area.

Preferably gravel floor.

an anvil or other large block of steel

Preferably carbon steel, not harbor frieght's anvil-shaped hunk of mild steel.

a (heavy) bench with a (heavy) vice

Metal surface, maybe fabricating table.

electrical access would be cool but not required.

What for?
 
Monica Truong
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This is the working forge completed at Wheaton Labs at the PTJ this summer!

 
I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay, I sleep all night and work all day. Tiny lumberjack ad:

World Domination Gardening 3-DVD set. Gardening with an excavator.
richsoil.com/wdg


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