2017 Homesteaders PDC (permaculture design course) & ATC (appropriate technology course) in Montana

I see the notice about how there are 2 work trade spots left for the pdc. Is that still available. How can I find out more info? it looks like some of the people in the thread have been getting emails about it. I would like that email also. I would also like info on the GAp program and the ant village program and the deal where you can  work  for 21 months and receive an acre for life. please let me know what I need to do. Whatever I do, I really need to find a way to get out of phoenix for the summer. I dont want to live in this hell hole and work for the landscaping company i work for spraying roundup and blowing away organic matter away into the landfill. How much of a permaculturist can I be If I am doing those things? get me out of here before june1st by the latest.

Andrew Greaves wrote:I see the notice about how there are 2 work trade spots left for the pdc. Is that still available. How can I find out more info? it looks like some of the people in the thread have been getting emails about it. I would like that email also.

Yes, we have work trade spots open. The post that lists the work trade terms is here. Basically, you have to put in time before the event.

I'm not sure what you mean by emails - the daily-ish? Or, if folks have paid the gapper fee, then we e-mail with them.

Andrew Greaves wrote:I would also like info on the GAp program and the ant village program and the deal where you can  work  for 21 months and receive an acre for life. please let me know what I need to do.

permaculture bootcamp - boots to roots - a way to learn and earn an acre at wheaton labs in about 21 months

gapper program 2.0 - gappers are those who are Goofy About Permaculture - it's version 2.0 because this is our second format so far - most folks visit here as a gapper. Info about fees, tours, rides, etc. are in that thread

ant village - this is the main community on the lab where "ants" each rent an acre on which to build their own home(s) and food systems

it seems that there is no difference between the ant village and the permaculture bootcamp except that the ant village is for 12 months and permaculture bootcamp is for 18 or 21 months. but wait, could it be that the pc bootcamp is just an extension of the gap program. I saw that on the site too.  I saw the requirement of listening to 200 podcasts but my question is how do you prove that you have listened to these podcasts?

it seems that there is no difference between the ant village and the permaculture bootcamp except that the ant village is for 12 months and permaculture bootcamp is for 18 or 21 months.

I think the two programs are almost opposites.

ant village:  you pay me $1200 and you get an acre through the end of the year.  you feed yourself, you use your own tools, you have bare land, so you might wanna make a shelter before the snow flies.   I do include the use of excavator and tractor.  You must listen to at least 200 podcasts before you start to play on your acre.  Each year you pay rent.

bootcamp:  you pay me $100 and i will feed you and set you up with a bunk (probably a tent during the warmer months) and give you access to the fisher price house.  After 18 (or 21) months, I will give you an acre - you don't have to pay rent for it.  ever.  You don't have to have listened to any podcasts before you start, but you do need to have listened to at least 200 podcasts before you can play on your acre.

gapper:  you pay me $100.  if you are not in the bootcamp program, then we will set you up with the ants.  The ants will give you a spot to pitch your tent - on an ant plot.  They will expect you to work with them elbow-to-elbow on their projects.  If it turns out that you are a hard worker and they like you and stuff, they might even feed you.  

work trade for the pdc or atc:   you put in a certain amount of time in our bootcamp program in exchange for the tickets.  You get tickets instead of an acre.

How private are the tent camp spots?  

Willy Walker wrote:How private are the tent camp spots?  

Some are more private than others.  Some are close to the action and some are far.  You can even pitch a tent on the far end of the lab and you probably won't see a human for the whole event.

Rus Williams wrote:
However I'd happily pay at least 200 bucks for access after the fact. You've got some great names lined up and I expect the standard to be really high.

Me, too.  I just couldn't make it this year but I'd absolutely pay 200 for access to the video.  Is kickstarter still on the table?

Russell Joplin wrote:Me, too.  I just couldn't make it this year but I'd absolutely pay 200 for access to the video.  Is kickstarter still on the table?

To do kickstarter, we need a great kickstarter video.   So, we wait for daniel.  

paul wheaton wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:

Pamela Kline wrote:Actually able to seriously consider the upcoming PDC! This makes me both terribly excited, as well as scared due to myself being a permie newbie and perhaps part of the comic relief portion of the course due to my ignorance.  I have listened to some of the podcasts, and consider this opportunity a major next step.  There is a chance I might miss the last day.  Do you think this PDC is appropriate for a newbie?  Do I miss out on the certificate or a major part of the experience if I am unable to attend the last day?

If you miss the last day, then that is the day that you would present your design and receive your certificate.   Perhaps the certificate isn't all that important to you.  

I do think this course is appropriate for a newbie.  Especially a newbie that has listened to some of my podcasts.  

I have had a few people question me privately about what i wrote here.   Their feedback was some variation of "harsh much?"

<clipped>

Finally, on the last night is talent night.   Dreaded by about half the students.  I suspect that those students would ALL be saying "golly, gee willickers, can I just get the certificate and be on my way without doing the talent night thing?"  

The ceremony is that you get up, do your shitty talent night bit and you get the certificate.   Not only was Bill Mollison insistant that all students had to do this, therefore it is a tip of the hat to Bill, but there is a damn good reason why everbody has to go through this suffering.  If you hold the piece of paper, you have endured standing in front of a crowd.   I do like the idea that anybody that has any concern over "I have no talent" that our instructors will find something to prop you up on that stage.  

So, to Pamela:   I hope that you find what I am saying to be of great value.  I hope that you agree with what I am saying and that you will juggle your stuff so that you can join us this year.

To the people that are contacting me to say "aw c'mon, don't be a dick":

https://permies.com/t/35374/world-lamest-jedi-mind-trick
https://permies.com/t/60055/nice-don-dick-dick
https://permies.com/t/60076/Wheaton-Law-Don-Dick-Corollaries

I rarely reply on this forum anymore, rarely even read here, its just become too overwhelming, and lacks a simple "Reply" button.  Editing the "Quote" button reply is annoying and tedious to me.   But this is too important of an issue, that I happen to be here and won't just click off.

I started at least 4 or 5 PDCs before I was able to finish one.  I had a business to run, and a complicated life, and some health problems, and then the constraints of dairy goats.  But starting multiple courses, gave me a valuable perspective.  They were all VERY different.  A PDC is not a PDC is not a PDC... and it should be, more so at least.   In my experience, the commuter courses miss a lot, and what I hear from MANY, not all, but too many, who have done online courses is a serious lack of "getting your hands respectably dirty" and doing something REAL.  They are proud of their PDC but scary clueless about actually DOING much.   I think in this day and age, videos etc could be done where people had to DO and SHOW that they DID, more than just a design in an online course.  

RE: the high-end PDC... this is something Paul and I have talked about for years, going on decades now, omg...  I'm supportive of his concept, and I would add that those kind of people would want a group of their key people to take it with them, to really get the experience to be able to take it back and use their resources to make things happen on a scale rarely seen in Permaculture so far.

RE:  the recording of the PDC that I saw in the dailyish email that got me to click here...  As you've seen with your Kickstarters, there's much larger pool than those who participate here.  

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:Parking and the possibility of SHADE.

For both your privacy (and less so, security/safety), and our attempt to reduce nosiness from neighbors, we do not want vehicles parked where they can be seen from the road.

This means that the parking lot behind the shop/auditorium or the turtle lot are the two main parking options. Please park behind the shop unless directed otherwise.

These two parking lots are shielded at the road side by 8-to-10-foot tall berms that protect your vehicles (and your person and your belongings) from view, reduce wind and road noise, and are growing food, but they do not shade things much. Soon, we'll have more growing on the sides of the berms that should offer shade. Right now there are just a few large conifers nearby (not in the berms) that cast narrow shade for an hour or two during parts of the day.

It may be possible to rig some shade, using sails or tarps, and human ingenuity.  
If you are interested in helping make this happen, please bring what you can.
(silver or white tarp(s), extra tent poles, metal stakes, parachute cord or other stout cord that is compatible with the grommets in the tarps)  
The site has rocks, we could probably scrounge some tree-trunk poles and scrap wood that we can turn into stakes, but manufactured kit speeds things along nicely.

I always enjoy practicing knots I have learned from sailors and horse packers.  With anchor points and couple of removable tension knots, it becomes very practical to improvise shade, woodsheds, or rain-flys for a temporary camp.

-Erica

More questions are rolling in! We sent out instructions on how to ship things to yourself at base camp.

One student asked how to ship things back to their home at the end of the course.

I think that will require a stop in Missoula before making your return trip. Which would need to be coordinated with your ride (or carpool to town?).

We are still amassing all the details of who needs a ride, when, and who needs a bunk, etc. Plus, some folks have yet to book their travel, so we haven't coordinated everything yet.

Do you know if there is a camping store nearby that I could score a gas can for my stove?   I see I can bring the stove on the airplane but not the gas.

Willy Walker wrote:
Do you know if there is a camping store nearby that I could score a gas can for my stove?   I see I can bring the stove on the airplane but not the gas.

There are camping supply places in Missoula (maybe loads, but at least a few!), not so many near base camp. So a stop in town would make sense before arriving at base camp.

Folks are booking their travel now. As a reminder, both the PDC website and the ATC website say this:

For Those That Fly to the Event

If you need a ride from the airport, we can arrange for somebody to pick you up.

Between 8 am and 9 pm: $15 per ride

Outside of those hours: $35 per ride

Please be ready to pay driver in cash

For those that may not be able to fly with sleeping bags and tents, there are a limited quantity available for borrowing, and of course, you can always rent the Tipi, Wofati, or other structures for your stay to lighten your luggage.

A few people have shipped a box of this sort of thing here. And a couple of those have left tents and sleeping bags for future people attending these events.

While we have listed a higher priced ride option for arriving after 9 p.m., if you arrive late enough that most folks are asleep, that means helping you find a place to set up a tent or get settled in Cooper Cabin, could wake people up...which is kinda rude.

So...in an effort to troubleshoot this, the only place I can think of to crash for free that late arrival night without disturbing others could be the cement floor of the garage (not the shop) at base camp.

We had someone who plans to camp ask about staying in Cooper Cabin the first night due to arriving in the middle of the night. Paul suggested that if the Cooper Cabin slumber party isn't full (and, as of today, it is not yet full), then $30 for a night there could mean that a spot is set aside and prepared for the least possible impact on others trying to sleep.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:Ah, so we have several people interested in lodging, and we've been scrambling to get all the details in order before replying to them, or posting here.

HINT to current students: filling out your registration form really helps us with these details, even if you don't have your travel details finalized - you can fill the form out multiple times.

wheaton labs is TWO pieces of property, two miles apart - base camp and the lab. The road between these two is paved, then gravel, then dirt (some times mud adventure!) and steep in places. High clearance and/or 4WD or all-wheel drive is recommended. Walking between the two takes about 40 minutes. Some residents regularly bike between the two. I'm not sure yet if we'll have extra bikes from our awesome group of Free Cycle bicycles.

I'm repeating this again, with emphasis, so folks can understand a bit more about our two properties and the location of things.

Paul has said we will have our 12-passenger van, Toots, available to carpool folks to and from base camp and the lab.

These are the locations of things that are applicable to things being discussed here:

base camp - smaller, rockier, hilly, on-grid location, though still some acreage here

shop/auditorium - where most of the classroom time and where meals will be served

Fisher Price House (FPH) - where Paul & Jocelyn live, the FPH bunk bedroom, FPH hall bathroom

garage and community office - for power, wifi

6 tent pads - first come, first served

camping anywhere is fine (without constructed tent pad)

(1) twin top FPH bunk availble for ATC only

the lab - over 200 acres, off-grid, more forested, surrounded by other timber lands

Cooper Cabin - slumber party accommodations, about half full so far

camping anywhere is fine (without constructed tent pad)

It seems we had a typo on both the PDC and ATC pages.

We mentioned folks could "borrow" a tent or sleeping bag (of which we have only a very few extras). We put a $15-$40 price tags on these things (though mostly $20, depending on the item and length of time).

So this evening the part that said "available to borrow," was changed to "available for a small fee."

The thing is, washing a sleeping bag means a trip to the laundromat in town. That's at least three hours of time, let alone other expenses. A tent used by a guest will need to be made sure it was cleaned/swept and dried out, packed properly, etc.

Sorry for any confusion with this.

ONLY 2 PDC TICKETS LEFT!

ONLY 2 ATC TICKETS LEFT!

There are only 3 days left to get the earlybird price!


https://richsoil.com/pdc.jsp

How many kids are out there? Im trying to figure out if wheaton labs would be a good place for my 10 yr old and 14 yr old to spend halfthe summer out there. What kind of housing and food arrangements are there for the kids? Is it possible for them to be gappers say part time?

Andrew Greaves wrote:How many kids are out there? Im trying to figure out if wheaton labs would be a good place for my 10 yr old and 14 yr old to spend halfthe summer out there. What kind of housing and food arrangements are there for the kids? Is it possible for them to be gappers say part time?

There are currently three boys.  

During the PDC, it sounds like there might be a total of four boys and four girls.  

We have had about a dozen teenagers come through at one point or another.  But it is difficult to tell.  

Food:  it depends.   There was a time there were going to be a few teenagers here this month and it sounded like they were hard workers.  So were going to trade work for food.   For the boys that are here now, their folks feed them - and the boys do help out with some stuff.
Housing:  in the summer, most people prefer to tent it because they can have a lot more privacy that way.  

Natalie Manor wrote:Tim talked about having good strong boots.  Can you tell me a brand and where you get your boots.  Many thanks.  

Someday, I plan to order some custom boots here http://www.whitesboots.com/index.php?dispatch=pages.view&page_id=18

In the meantime, I wear Ariat H20 waterproof boots. They're available at some ranch stores and multiple places online http://www.ariat.com/TERRAIN_H2O_W_FOO.html

They are not as heavy duty as backpacking boots, but they're lighter and more comfortable. Ariat makes durable boots for working for both women and men.

Hi all PDCers for 2017.  Getting ready here and want to make sure that I am truly prepared for this experience.  I am shipping some stuff cause I am flying from TN.  My questions:  1.  what is the best workbook style for the PDC course - just a school notebook? for our notes?  2.  Noticed in the PDC 2016 group shot, most people were not wearing boots which have been suggested several times to wear.  Sooo...?  3.  Other than gloves and the "recommended" boots, notebook and enthusiasm, are there any other sundries we should bring?  I read the list and will be bringing that which is listed on the "list".   Appreciate any repeating you need to do for these questions.  Just want to be prepared.  Many thanks.  Looking forward to meeting everyone.  Natalie  

Natalie Manor wrote:Hi all PDCers for 2017.  Getting ready here and want to make sure that I am truly prepared for this experience.  I am shipping some stuff cause I am flying from TN.  My questions:  1.  what is the best workbook style for the PDC course - just a school notebook? for our notes?  2.  Noticed in the PDC 2016 group shot, most people were not wearing boots which have been suggested several times to wear.  Sooo...?  3.  Other than gloves and the "recommended" boots, notebook and enthusiasm, are there any other sundries we should bring?  I read the list and will be bringing that which is listed on the "list".   Appreciate any repeating you need to do for these questions.  Just want to be prepared.  Many thanks.  Looking forward to meeting everyone.  Natalie  

Most of the time will be spent in the classroom.  Especially during the designing portions.  

Sundries?  What sorts of things do you have in mind?

paul wheaton wrote:
Sundries?  What sorts of things do you have in mind?

Bathing suit? (Isn't there a rocket hot tub...? )

I think it will be too cold to swim. I would recommend sturdy boots that will protect your foot from falling things, and also lighter shoes for when your feet won't be at risk.  A flashlight. A camping "mattress."  If you are super tied to your smartphone, maybe a rechargeable battery pack so you can recharge your phone in your tent, and then only have to recharge the battery pack a couple of times.

Ah, the poor rocket hot tub was never finished!

Julia's correct that it would likely be a bit brisk for swimming, though there is a hot springs a 35-minute drive away. Even a hot springs that close though, might not be feasible with the limited time off during the course. Folks might be full up with errands, socializing, other sight-seeing, and maybe even some design work on their day(s) off from class.

The notebook would likely depend on your preference. Not required by any means, and not everyone uses one. Something easy to haul around makes sense as I think we will be adding in hands-on elements where we can.

This looks amazing! I would buy a ticket in a heartbeat if I had not just started a new business. I read that you might stream it online I would be very interested in that if you do end up making it available online!